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12th August 2022, 08:42 AM | #121 |
Illuminator
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Maintaining constant attention to the political scene is time-consuming and difficult. Only real wonks get into every law and regulation that is working its way through Congress at any time. Heck, that's why we have elected representatives in the first place.
Voting for the person whose TV ad says they support your beliefs, and sending them money, is one thing. Spending the next two years watching your Congressman to see they don't step out of line is quite another. |
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12th August 2022, 08:45 AM | #122 |
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Progressivism (which originally revolved around applying scientific principles and methodology to the field of politics) was originally a Republican variant of politics. My family had a long tradition of being "Bull Moose" Republicans, it has faded since the '80s both because the Republitard, and most of the Dimocrapic, parties have moved far to the right of working family/labor-focused Public Policy as well as a lot of socio-cultural cookie-cutter scrambling by both corporate parties.
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Trakar "By doubting we come to inquiry, and through inquiry we perceive truth." — Peter Abelard "My civilization can do anything!" - David Brin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i275AvgVvow) |
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12th August 2022, 09:32 AM | #123 |
Penultimate Amazing
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That (maintaining ideological/policy agenda adherence) was originally the only valid reason (that I could see) for having political parties! Currently however, with both parties captured by Capital's funding donations, neither of the parties work for the voters, merely the high dollar donors and their Political Nonprofits, Super PACs, Carey Committees, and assorted LLCs and shell companies. This is a massive roadblock to any reformation or major change initiatives within either of the current mainstream parties (as well as the formation of any successful third parties).
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Trakar "By doubting we come to inquiry, and through inquiry we perceive truth." — Peter Abelard "My civilization can do anything!" - David Brin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i275AvgVvow) |
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12th August 2022, 09:37 AM | #124 |
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Trakar "By doubting we come to inquiry, and through inquiry we perceive truth." — Peter Abelard "My civilization can do anything!" - David Brin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i275AvgVvow) |
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12th August 2022, 11:21 AM | #125 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Very much this, but though this seems the easier choice, that is largely because we tend to underestimate the depth of the (largely "self-induced") corruption which the party leadership depends upon to keep the oligarch money flowing to satisfy their greed and secure their seats of power.
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Trakar "By doubting we come to inquiry, and through inquiry we perceive truth." — Peter Abelard "My civilization can do anything!" - David Brin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i275AvgVvow) |
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12th August 2022, 11:23 AM | #126 |
Penultimate Amazing
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It's interesting that every time someone puts forward a 'new, moderate, third party between the two extremes of the others' their policy choices are nearly indistinguishable from the corprotist DNC type Dems.
How are they different from the Dems? They have even less spine, and are more intellectually cowardly, so they'll fight the radicals even less effectively than the Dems. Great argument. |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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12th August 2022, 11:30 AM | #127 |
Philosopher
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Universal basic income is pretty different from the Corporatist Dems.
We could also talk about attempts at centrist third parties are actually kind of unusually. The closest thing to that with any success was Ross Perot's run. Otherwise its Greens, libertarians and even more quixotic parties. |
12th August 2022, 11:34 AM | #128 |
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More accurate to say it was originally non-partisan or bi-partisan as the there were progressive wings of both the Dems and Republicans back in the day.
Also more accurate to say it was an attempt to apply psuedo sicence to government policy. or the most part it wasn't so much science as using the branding of science to give polices an air of legitimacy. |
12th August 2022, 11:36 AM | #129 |
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His version of UBI is essentially company scrip and shutting down all social services.
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12th August 2022, 11:38 AM | #130 |
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I generally agree with you on your take regarding the progressive's attitude towards mainstream dems. There are basically two kinds of political parties, those that prioritize power and those that prioritize ideology. The Dems and GOP are the latter, the Libertarians and the Greens are the former. There is a reason that the Dems and the GOP are the successful parties.
The most vocal progressives don't seem to quite get that. |
12th August 2022, 11:41 AM | #131 |
Illuminator
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I see no indication that the Forward Party is advocating UBI, even though Yang has in the past. A quick look at their website shows a pretty thin platform. Pretty much the only solid things they actually advocate are Ranked Choice Voting, Non-Partisan Primaries, and Independent Redistricting Commissions.
After that they have their "Three Priorities":
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The road to Fascism is paved with people saying, "You're overreacting!". |
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12th August 2022, 11:43 AM | #132 |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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12th August 2022, 11:45 AM | #133 |
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It really is crazy how Nixon and Eisenhower at one point pushed ideas like UBI and Medicare-for-All.
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12th August 2022, 12:18 PM | #134 |
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Not sure that is accurate, as the Dim party was largely controlled and dominated by the Dixiecrats in the late 19th and very early 20th centuries. There may have been some democratic politicians and voters who were open to the advances of science and the industrial era changes but they were very few and far between.
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Trakar "By doubting we come to inquiry, and through inquiry we perceive truth." — Peter Abelard "My civilization can do anything!" - David Brin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i275AvgVvow) |
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12th August 2022, 12:21 PM | #135 |
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Trakar "By doubting we come to inquiry, and through inquiry we perceive truth." — Peter Abelard "My civilization can do anything!" - David Brin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i275AvgVvow) |
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12th August 2022, 12:30 PM | #136 |
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Trakar "By doubting we come to inquiry, and through inquiry we perceive truth." — Peter Abelard "My civilization can do anything!" - David Brin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i275AvgVvow) |
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12th August 2022, 12:53 PM | #137 |
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It's just patronizing. Progressives understand that government is messy and you don't get what you want. What they understand is that you have to idealize both.
The GOP idealizes ideology. The party has been in the same purity purge for a generation and pursues highly unpopular policies and get away with it because they market it so well. What else they do is they don't get in office and start worrying about Democratic backlash or if they will anger moderates. They hammer through their agenda understanding even if it costs them next time they've at least made the changes they want. The Dems, well, no. |
12th August 2022, 12:56 PM | #138 |
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14th August 2022, 01:02 PM | #139 |
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Not true any more.
Congressional Progressive Caucus surpassed the New Democrat Coalition in seats. While I want say they are the dominant caucus, they aren't some outlying minor component. There is some considerable and rational frustration in their being expected to have low expectations of infulence. |
15th August 2022, 07:32 AM | #140 |
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Yang was interviewed by Kim Acosta on CNN and got absolutely roasted for not having any actual ideas or positions. All he could do is repeat "Not left or right but forward" with no indication of what "forward" looks like. He just kept claiming they will defer to whatever the majority opinion is.
He has a high school sophomore's understanding of politics. It was like that Treehouse of Horror episode where Clinton and Dole were replaced by Kang and Kodos. "We must go forward not backward! Upward not forward! And always twirling twirling TWIRLING towards freedom!" |
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15th August 2022, 07:37 AM | #141 |
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Who coulda thunk it? Turns out Americans actually do need more than "I'm not those other guys!"
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15th August 2022, 08:35 AM | #142 |
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15th August 2022, 09:38 AM | #143 |
Penultimate Amazing
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To keep this as a sports analogy, if you are upset with the performance of one of your team mates and you air out that grievance in a public statement or interview then you are causing more damage to your own team's chances of winning than if you worked with the player you felt wasn't living up to his potential. You're causing problems in the locker room, you're pissing off your team mates, and you're causing unnecesary drama that all make it easier for the other team to beat your team.
The GOP also has a lot of help pursuing highly unpolular policies by those who spend all their time and effort criticizing the only group who could possibly stop the GOP. |
15th August 2022, 11:10 AM | #144 |
Illuminator
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The road to Fascism is paved with people saying, "You're overreacting!". |
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15th August 2022, 11:23 AM | #145 |
Penultimate Amazing
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15th August 2022, 12:29 PM | #146 |
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15th August 2022, 12:43 PM | #147 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I get mad at the guy on the sidelines wearing all Cavaliers gear constantly attacking the Warriors while claiming to be actually a Warriors fan. Sue me. Especially when he attacks the wrong players, and makes demonstrably untrue claims like "your team actively wants to lose".
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15th August 2022, 01:19 PM | #148 |
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This is still Manchin we're talking about, yes? The guy who singlehandedly slapped down federal abortion protections a few months ago and not a damn person said "boo" to him for it? You're going to have to demonstrate that untruth, there. There's a whole thread here called "how is Manchin a Democrat?"
In fact, there's a funny post there from some guy named "wareyin" Well, my goodness. It seems there are ideological purity tests and requirements to blindly follow dear leader, after all. Just not applied to the centrists. |
15th August 2022, 01:22 PM | #149 |
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15th August 2022, 01:26 PM | #150 |
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16th August 2022, 05:15 AM | #151 |
Penultimate Amazing
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No, I said it's demonstrably untrue that "your team" wants to lose. Manchin ain't the whole Dem party, in case that escapes you. He's just in the lucky (for him) position of being able to hold up everyone else.
Hell, it actually is demonstrably untrue that Manchin wants to lose, as well. He obviously wants to win his political ballgame, but just like the whiny progressives (who might as well be wearing MAGA hats), he's happy to tank the entire team, hell the entire sport, for the temporary satisfaction of being the center of attention and in control. |
16th August 2022, 05:29 AM | #152 |
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16th August 2022, 05:56 AM | #153 |
Penultimate Amazing
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"Any", "all", or even "most", it ain't a purity test to say quit biting off your own nose, shooting yourself in the foot, attacking your own team, etc, then saying "but no, I really hate the other guys more, I just can't be bothered to utter the slightest criticism of them when 'my team' is so corrupt!"
Or, quit wearing all that Cavaliers gear and only attacking the Warriors while expecting anyone at all to believe you're really a Warriors fan. |
16th August 2022, 06:24 AM | #154 |
No Punting
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You've managed to torture the analogy to the point where it both misses the point and assumes facts that aren't the case. This isn't about fandom. It's about who I need to address to make things better, and preaching to the choir about the righteousness of the cause is masturbatory.
My core allegiance is to what I think is best, not to a party. As long as a party lines up with that, great. I think that, currently, not voting for the candidate most likely to defeat a GOP candidate (almost always a Democrat) is basically treason against humanity. You'd think that point would be enough to sum up my feelings about the matter, but an awful lot of Democrats aren't satisfied with my vote and also want my soul and undying allegiance. |
16th August 2022, 06:27 AM | #155 |
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16th August 2022, 06:35 AM | #156 |
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You still ain't demonstrated a thing, just asserted it again.
Isn't he, though? That gets back to JoeMorgue's point from earlier, that whether or not Progressive candidates and voters make up a sizable fraction or even majority of the party, they are still a political minority. The dissonance between the flak Manchin/Sinema receive for being contrarian and the flak Progressives receive for being contrarian says more about where the party's policy priorities lie than their stated positions on the internets. He might be the guy taking the heat, but he speaks for a sizable fraction, possibly even most Democrats. Like, take the abortion rights vote. It failed by one senator: Joe Manchin. If he was really SUCH a lone wolf, don't you think there could have been some way to get him on board? Some combination of horse trading, bribes, carrots and sticks that's pretty much Chuck Schumer's entire job as Senate Majority Leader? As important as that vote was, as much of a win as it would have been for the Democrats to turn right around and protect the rights of women as they came under fire, that didn't happen. Why not? It makes me wonder if Manchin had cooperated, some other senator would have found the conviction to stand by their long-held policy of punishing women, or as you put it, their political ballgame. Strike that, I don't wonder if, I wonder how many would have done so. Because whatever that number was, it was enough to make the battle unwinnable. So unwinnable that it's better to attack anyone who criticizes it than try to force the issue. So either the Democratic Party that exists outside of Manchin are cowards more afraid of looking undignified than not doing the right thing, or they're complicit and on this issue as with so many others they prefer to get nothing done because they desire the current outcome regardless of how they beg for $10 campaign donations. Either way that's a hell of a vote of confidence and adds up to "actively wanting to lose" in my book. Which excuse do you think it is? Bringing it all back around to the OP, we don't need a spineless Centrist party. We already have the Democrats. And I say that as a registered Democrat who already votes blue no matter who and still gets accused of being a DINO for pointing out that we are losing, and the strategy of just pretending that everything is perfectly normal and we aren't losing isn't likely to turn that around all on its own. |
16th August 2022, 06:42 AM | #157 |
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16th August 2022, 06:53 AM | #158 |
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16th August 2022, 06:55 AM | #159 |
Penultimate Amazing
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When something is this obvious, demands for a demonstration aren't being made in good faith.
Wait, you seriously want to assert that, all evidence to the contrary, Manchin speaks for "possibly" most Democrats? Frankly, that's ludicrous and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of political realities. Of course you want to ignore the actual way people voted, and pretend that they totally would have voted opposite of what they actually did, all the while blaming everyone else for failing to get Manchin on board rather than blaming Manchin for holding out. Don't blame Manchin or the GOP for being intransigent, blame the Dems for...not having the votes to overcome that intransigence. Because people like you have been shouting to the rooftops about how bad the Dems are so the "meh" voters either stay home, throw away their votes on a third party, or actually vote the GOP in. And yet, here in reality, that number was actually zero. But don't let that stop you. Look, I myself claim to vote blue no matter who (in the privacy of the voting booth that can't be demonstrated), but how dare you criticise me for spending all my time and energy telling everyone else to not vote blue because they're so corrupt and so what that they all voted yes on abortion rights except Manchin, I'm imagining that they secretly wanted to vote no because they're all so awful! |
16th August 2022, 06:57 AM | #160 |
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
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It didn't need torture to make it worthless. It was an invalid non-analogous non-analogy from the start.
For one thing, in sports, there's no role within the system for talking about each other (or each other's performance) to play, but in politics, talking about each other and each other's policies is exactly how the whole thing's supposed to work; it's the whole point. A better analogy for that in basketball would be not players talking but players shooting, passing, blocking, and dribbling. Also, the way the analogy was given here reverses the positions of the people doing the talking. In real life in the DP, all of the internal attackery is not perpetrated by the few good players and aimed at the majority bad players to tell them to do better. It's coming from the majority bad players and aimed at the few good ones to tell them to do worse. Part of the attack method just happens to also include false accusations that it's going in the opposite direction. Thus, the whole idea of "the only team that can beat the other team" is obvious nonsense because the ones doing the internal attacks on their own team aren't doing anything to beat the other team; they keep throwing the games and then blaming the good players for the sin of actually wanting to win. (One thing about this analogy that is good is that it brings up the subject of why one team keeps throwing games: because there's an outside person or group of people, not on either team, who pays them to do so.) |
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