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View Poll Results: The raid was...
Absolutely a good thing - no question 134 77.46%
An outrage, a travesty - what about Magna Carta? Did she die in vain? 4 2.31%
I'll wait before I make a judgement thank you. 29 16.76%
Mar-X-Lago! 6 3.47%
Voters: 173. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 16th August 2022, 06:08 AM   #1041
TellyKNeasuss
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John Bolton says that he was NOT aware of any "standing order" that any document that Trump took out of the West Wing was automatically to be declassified.

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/joh...164102671.html

The whole notion is, IMnotusuallyHO, absurd. I can't believe that Trump's staff wouldn't have rebelled, as instantaneously declaring documents to be declassified would have created all sorts of problems.
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Old 16th August 2022, 07:21 AM   #1042
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According to an article in the Washington Post (which is probably behind a paywall), NARA first realized that Trump hadn't turned over all of his documents when the documents that he did turn over contained no records of his communications with Kim Jung Un.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...solomon-patel/
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Old 16th August 2022, 07:30 AM   #1043
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Trump's passports have been returned.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/don...says-rcna43192
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Old 16th August 2022, 07:33 AM   #1044
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Now can he please go away?
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Old 16th August 2022, 08:30 AM   #1045
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
According to an article in the Washington Post (which is probably behind a paywall), NARA first realized that Trump hadn't turned over all of his documents when the documents that he did turn over contained no records of his communications with Kim Jung Un.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...solomon-patel/

You might like this:

https://www.emptywheel.net/2022/08/1...espionage-act/
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Old 16th August 2022, 12:31 PM   #1046
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
According to an article in the Washington Post (which is probably behind a paywall), NARA first realized that Trump hadn't turned over all of his documents when the documents that he did turn over contained no records of his communications with Kim Jung Un.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...solomon-patel/
My understanding is that classified documents are closely tracked and cross referenced.

I could be wrong but I think it works such that if you have secret document #007 the records will show how many copies of that same document exist and where they are supposed to be. You should also be able to tell what documents reference or pertain to document #007.

It sounds like a lot of work.

My guess is that early in the Biden days the White House and the national security agencies knew here were a bunch of documents and/or their copies that couldn't be found. They also knew where they were supposed to be.

So ya' wouldn't have to be Columbo to figure out that I-can't-keep-a-secret-Donnie walked off with the goods.

It seems to me the real government tried to keep it all civil and on the quite by asking Trump and his minions about the documents.

That didn't work . . .and here we are.
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Old 16th August 2022, 12:50 PM   #1047
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
My understanding is that classified documents are closely tracked and cross referenced.

I could be wrong but I think it works such that if you have secret document #007 the records will show how many copies of that same document exist and where they are supposed to be. You should also be able to tell what documents reference or pertain to document #007.
I've skimmed through portions of a couple of executive orders dealing with document classification, and they both mention databases. Given that the government generates several million records per year, they would clearly need to maintain databases of their documents or they would never be able to keep track of them (and I would think that not keeping track of documents would, among other things, make it impossible to be in compliance with the Freedom of Information Act).

It would seem that 3 tasks would be necessary when a document is declassified:
1) document databases need to be updated to reflect the new status of the document;
2) affected agencies need to be notified that certain information is no longer classified;
3) the document needs to be re-labeled, lest anyone not handling the document in conformance with its labeled classification status be arrested or fired and have to depend on the president verifying that the document really was declassified.
This is why it is absurd to believe that there was a policy by which a document would be considered to be declassified if Trump simply left the West Wing with the document. His staff surely would have explained to him how such a policy could not possibly work.
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Old 16th August 2022, 01:58 PM   #1048
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
My understanding is that classified documents are closely tracked and cross referenced.

I could be wrong but I think it works such that if you have secret document #007 the records will show how many copies of that same document exist and where they are supposed to be. You should also be able to tell what documents reference or pertain to document #007.
Yes, they are catalogued and indexed. The DoJ very likely knew most of what was missing from the White House SCIF room and had evidence as to where the missing documents were, which is why they knew that The Fat Orange Turd's lawyers were lying when they said everything had been returned.

I'm betting they haven't got everything back, and that The Fat Orange Turd still has classified documents squirrelled away somewhere else.
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Old 16th August 2022, 02:20 PM   #1049
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yes, they are catalogued and indexed. The DoJ very likely knew most of what was missing from the White House SCIF room and had evidence as to where the missing documents were, which is why they knew that The Fat Orange Turd's lawyers were lying when they said everything had been returned.

I'm betting they haven't got everything back, and that The Fat Orange Turd still has classified documents squirrelled away somewhere else.
It would make sense that some are buried with Ivana on the golf course.
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Old 16th August 2022, 02:57 PM   #1050
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
It would make sense that some are buried with Ivana on the golf course.
Why ? If he wanted to get rid of them, he could always just burn them ..
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Old 16th August 2022, 03:09 PM   #1051
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
He can still escape to Mexico, but only if he climbs over his beautiful wall.
I don't think he would be welcome in Mexico.
If he flees, it is going to be to the arms o fhis good buddy Vlad.
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Old 16th August 2022, 03:28 PM   #1052
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I don't think he would be welcome in Mexico.
If he flees, it is going to be to the arms o fhis good buddy Vlad.
That would be pretty bad .. as all his faithful will suddenly realize how Putin is actually the good guy .. while Biden being the bad guy is already given. That would be such a blow to US morale it could shake the world ..
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Old 16th August 2022, 05:03 PM   #1053
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Why ? If he wanted to get rid of them, he could always just burn them ..
He wanted to eat his cake and have it too. Mmmmm... big, beautiful chocolate cake...
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Old 16th August 2022, 05:45 PM   #1054
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
That would be pretty bad .. as all his faithful will suddenly realize how Putin is actually the good guy .. while Biden being the bad guy is already given. That would be such a blow to US morale it could shake the world ..
Nah, Trump fleeing to Russia, would destory is credibitliy to all except the most hardcore of his followers.
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Old 16th August 2022, 06:21 PM   #1055
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
That would be pretty bad .. as all his faithful will suddenly realize how Putin is actually the good guy .. while Biden being the bad guy is already given. That would be such a blow to US morale it could shake the world ..
They already think Putin is the good guy.
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
He wanted to eat his cake and have it too. Mmmmm... big, beautiful chocolate cake...
With twice as much ice cream as anyone else.
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Old 16th August 2022, 07:47 PM   #1056
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Nah, Trump fleeing to Russia, would destory is credibitliy to all except the most hardcore of his followers.
That's been all of them, for quite some time,
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Old 16th August 2022, 07:49 PM   #1057
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
They already think Putin is the good guy.
Yup

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Old 16th August 2022, 08:30 PM   #1058
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yup

From the looks of it, those two are one super sized double quarter-pounder combo away from being neither.
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Old 16th August 2022, 10:41 PM   #1059
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I have just come across this new account that Beau of the Fifth Column retweeted


https://twitter.com/realGollumTrump/...S2D0f400jn2l2Q
Quote:
Gollum J. Trump
@realGollumTrump


ALL THEY HADS TO DOES IS ASKS!! ASKS US!!! But didn’t they asks us precious? Didn’t they sends subpeanuts? Eh? QUIET! FALSE NEWSES!!! The better riddle, yes precious, is what bout Obamagorn- Its three wagons of scrolls! Will they sneaks in the night to takes what it tooks right?
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:05 AM   #1060
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Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
Did Giuliani come up with the idea for that letter, because that letter is a terrible idea.

NARA took out a bunch of documents a few months ago. Because those contained classified national security documents, DOJ started an investigation. DOJ visited Mar-A-Lago in early June and discovered more papers, apparently even after Trump had said he had turned over everything.

Then on June 19 he send a letter to the Archivist designating a couple of people as representatives to access his Presidential records under 36 C.F.R. § 1270.44(a)(4). A former President does have special access to potentially obtain those documents, but there is a process.

I expect this was to set up an argument that he could have obtained the documents legally through this means, therefore it is just a small matter of the timeliness of the paperwork and no big deal. But a letter of this nature is the first step in the process, not a magical time machine that wipes away past crimes. Designating representatives at this point is all but admitting that he improperly and illegally took the documents. Lawyers are straw grasping.
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Old 17th August 2022, 06:28 AM   #1061
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Trump's passports have been returned.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/don...says-rcna43192
Former prosecutor Glenn Kirshner has suggested a theory about why Trump's passports were taken in the first place.

He said it is common when executing a search warrant for officers to collect evidence showing "possession". (i.e. which shows that the subject of the investigation actually had access to the materials in question.)

If they had just grabbed the documents and nothing else, Trump might have claimed "I never go in that room. It must have been Giulliani.". The existence of something personal like his passports shows that at the very least Trump would have had access to the room where the documents were found.

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Old 17th August 2022, 06:45 AM   #1062
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
That would be pretty bad .. as all his faithful will suddenly realize how Putin is actually the good guy .. while Biden being the bad guy is already given. That would be such a blow to US morale it could shake the world ..
MAGA is a Kremlin operation.
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Old 17th August 2022, 06:47 AM   #1063
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Apprently now Trump's big problem is just finding a lawyer to represent him.
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Old 17th August 2022, 06:53 AM   #1064
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
MAGA is a Kremlin operation.

I don't remember if I saw it here or somewhere else, but I've seen Moscow Agents Gutting America.

EDIT: It was dudalb back in 2018.

Last edited by Armitage72; 17th August 2022 at 07:00 AM.
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Old 17th August 2022, 06:55 AM   #1065
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Former prosecutor Glenn Kirshner has suggested a theory about why Trump's passports were taken in the first place.

He said it is common when executing a search warrant for officers to collect evidence showing "possession". (i.e. which shows that the subject of the investigation actually had access to the materials in question.)

If they had just grabbed the documents and nothing else, Trump might have claimed "I never go in that room. It must have been Giulliani.". The existence of something personal like his passports shows that at the very least Trump would have had access to the room where the documents were found.

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Oh please, it's nothing complicated.

He had his passports in a random envelope in one of the boxes they took. When they went through the contents after they got it off site, they found his passports and so returned them.

He couldn't have told you his passports were in there until they told him. That's why he didn't tell anyone that they took his passports until they told him.
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Old 17th August 2022, 07:42 AM   #1066
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Apprently now Trump's big problem is just finding a lawyer to represent him.
By this point, I doubt that even a desperate 'Saul Goodman' would work for Trump.
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Old 17th August 2022, 07:52 AM   #1067
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Apprently now Trump's big problem is just finding a lawyer to represent him.
I wonder how long the republican party is going to keep paying Trump's legal bills.
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Old 17th August 2022, 07:53 AM   #1068
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I wonder how long the republican party is going to keep paying Trump's legal bills.
There is no Republican Party anymore. Trump has purged it of all disloyalists.
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Old 17th August 2022, 07:59 AM   #1069
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Oh please, it's nothing complicated.

He had his passports in a random envelope in one of the boxes they took. When they went through the contents after they got it off site, they found his passports and so returned them.

He couldn't have told you his passports were in there until they told him. That's why he didn't tell anyone that they took his passports until they told him.
"Excuse me, sir, is this your passport?"

"What, him?! I hardly know the guy!"
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Old 17th August 2022, 08:17 AM   #1070
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Interesting stuff:

https://www.newsweek.com/fbi-sought-...iagate-1734280
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Old 17th August 2022, 08:22 AM   #1071
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Mark my word the Trumpers are going to spin this into Trump bravely leading some personal investigation into the ebil librul child sex devil worshipping deep state that plotting to destroy America...
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Old 17th August 2022, 08:43 AM   #1072
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Oh please, it's nothing complicated.

He had his passports in a random envelope in one of the boxes they took. When they went through the contents after they got it off site, they found his passports and so returned them.

He couldn't have told you his passports were in there until they told him. That's why he didn't tell anyone that they took his passports until they told him.
Yeah, I agree with this. From all accounts I've seen, it doesn't sound like this is uncommon at all. I'm assuming when he travels he has someone to hold his hand, pack his bags, grab his passport, and do everything he can't be bothered to do.

I wonder who he'll throw under the bus next. I'm kind of shocked that he hasn't blamed people who did the packing. He kind of did in that he said the packing was done hastily but knowing Trump he'll end up saying it was Melanie.

"You see, Melanie did all the packing. So, really, she's the one at fault here!"
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Old 17th August 2022, 08:48 AM   #1073
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Mark my word the Trumpers are going to spin this into Trump bravely leading some personal investigation into the ebil librul child sex devil worshipping deep state that plotting to destroy America...
Trumpers still don't know what they are supposed to think about the FBI search. And Tucker &co are not providing the marching orders as expected.
They are waiting to see if it's time to ditch Trump for DeSantis.
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Old 17th August 2022, 08:57 AM   #1074
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What bothers me most is that the boxes were evidently right out in the open. I mean, a few hundred bucks and a creative carpenter and you could easily build a bug out room that would keep boxes of incriminating paper away from prying eyes. I'd be shocked if he didn't have one already. The boxes are going to be props filled with take-out menus, I just know it.
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Old 17th August 2022, 10:19 AM   #1075
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I'm not confused. I'm asking why it matters. Since you were the latest one to talk about it, I asked you.
Because it's relevant to how classified material can end up where it's not supposed to be.

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Perhaps it varies based on classification level? They have to be tracked somehow.
Perhaps they should always be tracked, but they aren't always. Given the amount of paperwork that gets generated, I'm not even sure they can. Classification level is likely relevant, but probably not the only factor.
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Old 17th August 2022, 10:55 AM   #1076
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Mod WarningDerail into Clinton's emails moved to AAH. Keep to the topic of this thread. If you wish to discuss matters pertaining to Clinton's infamous emails take it to another thread.
Responding to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By:Darat
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Old 17th August 2022, 11:03 AM   #1077
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Seems to me someone had to sign to get those documents out of secure storage. Who was that?
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Old 17th August 2022, 11:20 AM   #1078
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Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
Seems to me someone had to sign to get those documents of of secure storage. Who was that?
Why would that be the case? The President isn't going to have somebody sign documents in and out every time he wants to see something classified. That's way too inconvenient. Surely the President can store classified material in the oval office.
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Old 17th August 2022, 11:35 AM   #1079
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why would that be the case? The President isn't going to have somebody sign documents in and out every time he wants to see something classified. That's way too inconvenient. Surely the President can store classified material in the oval office.
Yes but he can't then take them home to his golf resort, the 3,456 thing that should have to be explained about this yet we're still having the explain.
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Old 17th August 2022, 11:38 AM   #1080
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why would that be the case? The President isn't going to have somebody sign documents in and out every time he wants to see something classified. That's way too inconvenient. Surely the President can store classified material in the oval office.
You seem to be under the impression that Trump liked to read. He famously didn't. Aides had to read to him, and/or dumb down briefings with his name in every other sentence, etc, for him to pay any attention at all.

Trump didn't have 27-30 boxes of TS/SCI documents sitting around the oval office for him to research every day.

Last edited by wareyin; 17th August 2022 at 11:40 AM.
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