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View Poll Results: The raid was...
Absolutely a good thing - no question 134 77.46%
An outrage, a travesty - what about Magna Carta? Did she die in vain? 4 2.31%
I'll wait before I make a judgement thank you. 29 16.76%
Mar-X-Lago! 6 3.47%
Voters: 173. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 17th August 2022, 11:39 AM   #1081
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes but he can't then take them home to his golf resort, the 3,456 thing that should have to be explained about this yet we're still having the explain.
Also he stopped being president quite some time ago, you don't get to take nuclear secrets to your retirement golf resort.
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Old 17th August 2022, 11:50 AM   #1082
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You seem to be under the impression that Trump liked to read.
Did I say "Trump"? No, I said the President.

Again, stop assuming everyone sees everything through the partisan lens you do.

Quote:
Trump didn't have 27-30 boxes of TS/SCI documents sitting around the oval office for him to research every day.
I'm sure he didn't have all those documents in the oval office. That's not the point. The point is that classified documents don't always have to be signed in and out of a secure storage facility, a point that you aren't actually contesting.
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Old 17th August 2022, 11:53 AM   #1083
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes but he can't then take them home to his golf resort, the 3,456 thing that should have to be explained about this yet we're still having the explain.
I didn't say he could. But if ZiprHead was correct, then there would have been a record of who signed the classified documents out of storage. But since he's NOT correct (at least in general), then there may be no such record.

I shouldn't have to explain that not everything I say is an attempt to defend Trump, and yet I'm still having to explain.
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Old 17th August 2022, 11:56 AM   #1084
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why would that be the case? The President isn't going to have somebody sign documents in and out every time he wants to see something classified.
Why not? Seems pretty reasonable
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Old 17th August 2022, 11:59 AM   #1085
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I didn't say he could.
Then why did you bring it up and what are you saying and what are doing and just... so many other questions you won't answer.

Stop being coy. It's annoying and you're not even good at it.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 17th August 2022 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:07 PM   #1086
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Then why did you bring it up
I didn't bring it up. ZiprHead did. None of your assumptions about what I'm saying are actually true. Seriously, go back, read ZiprHead's post, read my post WITHOUT the assumption that I'm trying to defend Trump, and you'll find that there's nothing objectionable to what I said.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:08 PM   #1087
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Why ? If he wanted to get rid of them, he could always just burn them ..
I think he wants to hide them.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:12 PM   #1088
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I didn't bring it up. ZiprHead did. None of your assumptions about what I'm saying are actually true. Seriously, go back, read ZiprHead's post, read my post WITHOUT the assumption that I'm trying to defend Trump, and you'll find that there's nothing objectionable to what I said.
No I'm not going back and read your posts without assuming your doing the thing you always do, and are doing now, and will always do.

Edited by sarge:  removed FMF content


The Former President of the United States of America, illegally removed classified material and stored it improperly. This is a fact and it is not in dispute.

I want to hear your excuse. You have one. I know you do. You know you do.

What is it?
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Last edited by sarge; 18th August 2022 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:17 PM   #1089
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TS and above classification documents have a chain of custody, which means "signing out" by someone when taken from secure storage. It may be "inconvenient" but for top secret data, I think convenience is low on the priority.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:17 PM   #1090
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Did I say "Trump"? No, I said the President.

Again, stop assuming everyone sees everything through the partisan lens you do.
Again, the former President we are discussing is Trump. If you cannot remain on topic, that's not my fault.



Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm sure he didn't have all those documents in the oval office. That's not the point. The point is that classified documents don't always have to be signed in and out of a secure storage facility, a point that you aren't actually contesting.
The TS/SCI documents certainly do. A point you're desperately trying to ignore.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:21 PM   #1091
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
TS and above classification documents have a chain of custody, which means "signing out" by someone when taken from secure storage. It may be "inconvenient" but for top secret data, I think convenience is low on the priority.
It's also a well-known thing in the IT community that the more secure something is that the less convenient it will be.

I'm sure, as someone will either confirm or deny, that the convenience decreases the more secure a document is, even for the POTUS.

Trump just assumed he owned the documents, and that he could take them or leave them as he damn well pleased. He had multiple warnings, and requests. I hope they throw the book at him.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:21 PM   #1092
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No I'm not going back and read your posts without assuming your doing the thing you always do, and are doing now, and will always do.
This is circular reasoning. You assume I'm doing something, and then you never bother to check if I'm actually doing it, because your assumption must be correct, because you always make that assumption, which then proves that it's correct.

Quote:
Edited by sarge:  removed edited content


The Former President of the United States of America, illegally removed classified material and stored it improperly. This is a fact and it is not in dispute.

I want to hear your excuse. You have one. I know you do. You know you do.

What is it?
I didn't make any excuse. I'm not planning on making any excuse.

Edited by sarge:  removed uncivil content
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Last edited by sarge; 18th August 2022 at 04:46 AM.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:33 PM   #1093
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
The TS/SCI documents certainly do.
Says who?

Classified information is supposed to be stored in secure locations, but I know of no generalized requirement, even at the top secret level, that they must be signed in and out for each viewing. Furthermore, multiple rooms in the White House (including the Oval Office) are SCIF secure rooms, so material doesn't even have to leave to be viewed.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:38 PM   #1094
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why would that be the case?
Because national security.

Quote:
The President isn't going to have somebody sign documents in and out every time he wants to see something classified.
If he wants to see something that's SCI, then yes, that is exactly what he will do.

Quote:
That's way too inconvenient.
Tough. Stuff doesn't get placed under SCI for funsies. National security is more important than the President's personal convenience.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:40 PM   #1095
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Says who?
I held a Top Secret SCI for 20 years. You are wrong.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:45 PM   #1096
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I didn't bring it up. ZiprHead did. None of your assumptions about what I'm saying are actually true. Seriously, go back, read ZiprHead's post, read my post WITHOUT the assumption that I'm trying to defend Trump, and you'll find that there's nothing objectionable to what I said.
SOrry but given your history that you are tyring to defend Trump is a reasonable assumption.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:46 PM   #1097
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Says who?

Classified information is supposed to be stored in secure locations, but I know of no generalized requirement, even at the top secret level, that they must be signed in and out for each viewing. Furthermore, multiple rooms in the White House (including the Oval Office) are SCIF secure rooms, so material doesn't even have to leave to be viewed.
So you believe that someone can go into the secure area, grab a document and leave with it all without signing it out so that there is traceability? Have you ever dealt with classified documents?
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:49 PM   #1098
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
So you believe that someone can go into the secure area, grab a document and leave with it all without signing it out so that there is traceability? Have you ever dealt with classified documents?
As a former Military Intelligence officer, I'm wondering the same thing. Ziggurat, do you have any experience handling SCI? I do (although that was a long time ago, it seems apparent that not all that much has changed.)
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:50 PM   #1099
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I held a Top Secret SCI for 20 years. You are wrong.
Then prove it. Cite a source that describes this rule. Because I don't believe you.

More specifically, so we know exactly what we're disagreeing about, I don't think any paper trail is required each time the President views classified documents in the oval office.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:51 PM   #1100
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Says who?

Classified information is supposed to be stored in secure locations, but I know of no generalized requirement, even at the top secret level, that they must be signed in and out for each viewing. Furthermore, multiple rooms in the White House (including the Oval Office) are SCIF secure rooms, so material doesn't even have to leave to be viewed.
As previously demonstrated in this thread, you're wrong. As a member who held top secret clearances told you, you're wrong.

But, even if by some miracle your defense of Trump...wait, your argument to shield Trump from legal consequences of breaking the law (is that better?) wasn't wrong, the damn basement in Mar-a-Lago with a chintzy padlock on the door isn't a SCIF secure room. So your attempt to clear Trump's name fails even then.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:51 PM   #1101
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
So you believe that someone can go into the secure area, grab a document and leave with it all without signing it out so that there is traceability? Have you ever dealt with classified documents?
The oval office is a SCIF, is it not?

Documents viewed within the oval office aren't leaving a secure area. So no, I don't think they need to be signed out when handled within the oval office.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:53 PM   #1102
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The oval office is a SCIF, is it not?

Documents viewed within the oval office aren't leaving a secure area. So no, I don't think they need to be signed out when handled within the oval office.
In your opinion, these TS/SCI documents are teleported into the oval office?
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:53 PM   #1103
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
As previously demonstrated in this thread, you're wrong. As a member who held top secret clearances told you, you're wrong.

But, even if by some miracle your defense of Trump...wait, your argument to shield Trump from legal consequences of breaking the law (is that better?) wasn't wrong, the damn basement in Mar-a-Lago with a chintzy padlock on the door isn't a SCIF secure room. So your attempt to clear Trump's name fails even then.
Again, I'm not trying to clear Trump's name. How many times do I have to say this? Why do you keep assuming it when, even by your own admission, I'm not actually doing that?

What I'm saying is I don't think the paper trail that ZiprHead speculated on exists.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:54 PM   #1104
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The oval office is a SCIF, is it not?

Documents viewed within the oval office aren't leaving a secure area. So no, I don't think they need to be signed out when handled within the oval office.
Do you know if they are actually stored in the oval office? If not, they would be signed out of where they are stored so that there is traceability. If there is no traceability, then documents would easily disappear and be a potential security breach.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:55 PM   #1105
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
In your opinion, these TS/SCI documents are teleported into the oval office?
That's not relevant. The question was how they got to Mar a Lago. If Trump can grab them himself without signing them out, then there's potentially no paper trail.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:56 PM   #1106
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The oval office is a SCIF, is it not?

Documents viewed within the oval office aren't leaving a secure area. So no, I don't think they need to be signed out when handled within the oval office.
No, it's absolutely not. People with phones are in there all the time.
And the President doesn't get the classified stuff, he gets a distilled product without sources or methods.

What Trump took came from an actual SCIF, he must have asked for the original documents, because he planned to keep them.
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Old 17th August 2022, 12:59 PM   #1107
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Again, I'm not trying to clear Trump's name. How many times do I have to say this?
It does matter how may times you say it as long you keep doing it. Nobody is falling for this.

The documents aren't in the Oval Office now so why does (Q-BERT SOUND EFFECT) matter. You can't take Top Secret material with you as a goddamn souvenir.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:00 PM   #1108
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
Do you know if they are actually stored in the oval office?
None of us know. Seriously, none of us know what actual documents were found at Mar a Lago, or where they came from. The point is what could have happened.

Quote:
If there is no traceability, then documents would easily disappear and be a potential security breach.
Yes. That is true. Any time someone who is responsible doesn't fulfill their responsibility, there's a potential for a breach. And as long as there are people with access to classified information, and they don't have someone looking over their shoulder continuously, that's a possibility. Such breaches have happened plenty of times before, and they will happen again, because no system is infallible, and there's always a compromise, even with top secret information, between security and usability.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:00 PM   #1109
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Again, I'm not trying to clear Trump's name. How many times do I have to say this? Why do you keep assuming it when, even by your own admission, I'm not actually doing that?

What I'm saying is I don't think the paper trail that ZiprHead speculated on exists.
By my own admission, your attempts to clear Trump's name are weak and/or failing. But they're still attempts, Zig.

You're in here trying to prove that the TS/SCI documents Trump took to Mar-a-Lago were "possibly" all stuff he had in the oval office, and that none of that TS/SCI stuff had any way of tracing who currently has it.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:02 PM   #1110
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It does matter how may times you say it as long you keep doing it.
And what's your evidence that I keep doing it?

That you keep assuming it.

Quote:
The documents aren't in the Oval Office now so why does (Q-BERT SOUND EFFECT) matter. You can't take Top Secret material with you as a goddamn souvenir.
I already said why, but you keep ignoring it: because there may be no paper trail, not because it's OK. Seriously, how long is it going to take you to figure out something so simple? Hell, why is that even controversial? Even supposing I'm wrong, why are you butt hurt that I said it?
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:04 PM   #1111
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And what's your evidence that I keep doing it?
Again, nobody is buying this. Your act is old and played out. And you're not even the best person at doing it anymore.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:04 PM   #1112
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
By my own admission, your attempts to clear Trump's name are weak and/or failing. But they're still attempts, Zig.
Uh, no. You're really bad at reading comprehension.

Quote:
You're in here trying to prove that the TS/SCI documents Trump took to Mar-a-Lago were "possibly" all stuff he had in the oval office, and that none of that TS/SCI stuff had any way of tracing who currently has it.
Which... logically wouldn't excuse Trump, would it? The lack of tracking has nothing to do with whether or not something is an offense, or how severe it is. Which would indeed be a flaw if I were attempting to defend Trump.

But again, I'm not. You have assumed I am, because that's just what you do, but it's not true.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:06 PM   #1113
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Yes we're all misunderstanding in the exact same way, go with that.

We're being unreasonable to assume you're defending Trump because you always defend Trump and are currently in the process of defending Trump.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:07 PM   #1114
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And what's your evidence that I keep doing it?
Some of that evidence (the whataboutery) was sent to AAH mere hours ago.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:09 PM   #1115
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This whole "In literally every single discussion I'm going to do nothing but parrot the exact same talking point lies to defend Trump... but don't you dare call me a Trumper!" thing is old and just way to hijack the discussion.

You are intentionally saying things which you know to be factually untrue in order to make what Trump did sound better. That's defending him. Words mean things.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:11 PM   #1116
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
None of us know. Seriously, none of us know what actual documents were found at Mar a Lago, or where they came from. The point is what could have happened.



Yes. That is true. Any time someone who is responsible doesn't fulfill their responsibility, there's a potential for a breach. And as long as there are people with access to classified information, and they don't have someone looking over their shoulder continuously, that's a possibility. Such breaches have happened plenty of times before, and they will happen again, because no system is infallible, and there's always a compromise, even with top secret information, between security and usability.
Odd that they apparently knew what documents were at Mar-a-Lago, since they kept asking for documents back. It's like they knew he returned some stuff and they were trying to get the rest back. There is traceability for controlled documents.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:12 PM   #1117
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
Odd that they apparently knew what documents were at Mar-a-Lago, since they kept asking for documents back. It's like they knew he returned some stuff and they were trying to get the rest back. There is traceability for controlled documents.
When they turned over boxes numbered 1 ,2 ,3 ,7, 12 and so on clearly there were boxes missing.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:13 PM   #1118
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The oval office is a SCIF, is it not?
No. If it were, then things like addresses to the nation could not be made from it. Nor could First Family members enter unless they were read on.

ETA: Uncleared visitors CAN visit a SCIF, but there are a lot of strictures and controls that apply to such cases.

Last edited by Reformed Offlian; 17th August 2022 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:13 PM   #1119
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And again, it doesn't matter what they're classified as, or where they were stored. I'm not sure why it's even that interesting of a sidebar.

Who cares? He's in deep **** because he's a dope.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:13 PM   #1120
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes we're all misunderstanding in the exact same way, go with that.

We're being unreasonable to assume you're defending Trump because you always defend Trump and are currently in the process of defending Trump.
How is a lack of a paper trail a defense of Trump? That makes no sense. It isn't. Seriously: if you assume (for the sake of argument) I'm right about a lack of a paper trail, does that get Trump off the hook? No, it doesn't. I don't think it does. You don't think it does. Probably no one does. Conversely, if I'm wrong, that doesn't get Trump in any deeper trouble either. So why on earth would you think that this is a defense of Trump, when I'm not claiming it is, no one thinks it is, and I know no one thinks it is?

You've got the stupidest theory of argumentation I've probably ever seen.
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