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17th August 2022, 01:15 PM | #1121 |
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Because it's a hijack and the literal only defense the Trumpers have left is to be so wrong about so much that the simple act of pulling them kicking and screaming back to the original wrong we were talking about is just....so exhausting they hope we won't have the energy to explain to them for the 50th time why their original obviously wrong statement was obviously wrong.
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17th August 2022, 01:15 PM | #1122 |
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17th August 2022, 01:17 PM | #1123 |
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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17th August 2022, 01:18 PM | #1124 |
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So I guess this answers our question as to "What happens when the Trumpers finally get told what to think."
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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17th August 2022, 01:18 PM | #1125 |
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That's pretty good from the guy who thought I was admitting he wasn't trying to defend Trump as I was openly saying Zig is trying but failing to defend Trump.
Throwing anything and everything against the wall to see what sticks is a tried and true strategy of the "totally not a Trump defender" Trump defenders. They love to throw out whataboutisms, red-herrings, quible over minutia, and get people focused on anything but their god-king breaking the law. It's certainly been a staple used here for the last 6 years. That these defences are off topic, logically flawed, etc, doesn't mean they aren't used. |
17th August 2022, 01:30 PM | #1126 |
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Okay so now that somebody has been shown that their normal tactics won't work, we can actually have the conversation.
Trump has, yet again in that classic "Every Republican accusation is a confession" way been caught doing something he was constantly accusing others of doing, has shown no remorse or even understanding that he did something wrong, can't keep his story straight to the point that his main narratives contradict himself, I believe we are now at "The FBI planted those documents that I had every right to have." These are fact and they are not in dispute. |
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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17th August 2022, 01:32 PM | #1127 |
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It makes no difference to any possible offense on Trump's part. It makes a difference to how things get discovered.
Which would have been a total non-issue, except that the mere thought that someone might defend Trump is apparently so offensive in and of itself that it couldn't be countenanced. The mere suspicion that something MIGHT be a defense of Trump was enough, no actual examination of the argument on its own merits was necessary. And thus we get people attacking me unnecessarily over something that they don't even actually care about. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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17th August 2022, 01:34 PM | #1128 |
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Trump was told to return the documents - he didn't and had his lawyer lie that he did.
Defending Trump after that is just not reasonable. |
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17th August 2022, 01:35 PM | #1129 |
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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17th August 2022, 01:35 PM | #1130 |
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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17th August 2022, 01:36 PM | #1131 |
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Oh? What are your academic or professional credentials that makes you an authority on this topic? Or, what sources can you cite to support your position?
Because certainly you aren't making an assumption after all the criticizing you've made of other posters for doing just that. |
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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17th August 2022, 01:43 PM | #1132 |
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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17th August 2022, 01:55 PM | #1133 |
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Anyway
I'm sure there was a paper trail to a point. It probably goes cold at the White House. The Trump was reportedly very lax with security procedures with staffers struggling to go behind Trump and clean up his messes. It wouldn't surprise me at all if these documents just fell off the radar beccause "Trump has them" and NARA has been struggling to account for everything ever since. |
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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17th August 2022, 02:06 PM | #1134 |
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Interesting bit from today's LegalEagle's video (19ish minute): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekefMUICOGo
Classified documents are marked as such on header and footer of each page, indicating level of classification. Furthermore the records have cover sheet indicating when the document was classified, by whom, under what authority, and when the classification expires. Declassification requires the documents to be stamped as declassified, again when, by whom and under what authority. Documents not marked as declassified must be treated as classified for handling and storing purposes. Makes sense .. how else can random person know if the document is currently classified or not ? |
17th August 2022, 02:23 PM | #1135 |
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Think that'll get him to retract the claim?
I was a navy nuke and even the confidential classified documents had restrictions. One major requirement that is common to all classified documents is a "need." On this standard alone, Trump fails. He has and had no need to have any government documents in his basement. |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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17th August 2022, 02:47 PM | #1136 |
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I'm not sure if US law is exactly the same as Canadian law, but NATO standard is that everything marks as classified or in a folder marked as classified must be treated as classified even if it isn't. IOW even if Trump legitimately declassified the documents, as long as they still have classified headers footers or cover sheets they still legally must be treated as classified and you would face all the same penalties for mishandling them as you would for materiel that was still classified.
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17th August 2022, 03:09 PM | #1137 |
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17th August 2022, 04:05 PM | #1138 |
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I also held a Top Secret clearance when I was in the military. By way of explanation, this related to anti-submarine warfare (ASW) equipment such as AN-AQA5, and its ancillary systems and equipment that was fitted to or used by our P3C Orion aircraft. The service manuals for this equipment (for example, "Jezebel", MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detector) and the sonobuoys was classified because it contained operating frequencies, pulse widths and PRFs (pulse repetition frequencies) that, if compromised, could allow an enemy submarine to evade detection.
We were compelled to use the US security systems for these manuals and documents, because the US manufactured equipment and its specifications were similar to those used in US Navy Orions and warships, and a compromise of our systems would also compromise theirs Ziggurat is wrong. Every document and manual was kept in a safe, and was not allowed to be removed from the ASW Servicing Bay except for certain circumstances which I will explain later. To obtain a manual or a document, you had to get a supervisor's authorization. You would then carry out whatever repairs or maintenance that needed carrying out and then return the manual or document to the safe. Manuals and docs were not allowed to be left out of the safe overnight. There were only two times that a manual or document was permitted to leave the facility. One was to get updated pages put in. The manual or document had to be signed out by the person removing it, over-signed by a supervisor, and then that supervisor would accompany you to the Tech Library, where a tech librarian with the same security clearance, would carry out the page replacements in front of you. The replaced pages would be given back to you, and on return to the ASW Bay, they would be handed to the SNCO i/c of the bay, who would destroy them in the shredder. The other was if the manual was required for ground or airborne testing of the equipment on/in the aircraft. The same signing out procedure applied, and additionally, only personnel with the appropriate security clearances were allowed on the aircraft for this. |
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17th August 2022, 04:17 PM | #1139 |
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"Facts are stupid things." Ronald Reagan |
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17th August 2022, 04:45 PM | #1140 |
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This is the official guide to storage of Confidential/Secret/Top Secret documents.
Quote:
Quote:
1) "SECRET cleared, authorized employee or guard stationed to control access to the area? Not that I've heard. 2) "a lock which has been approved for that purpose by the SSE and which provides reasonable protection against surreptitious entry"? NO, since they were ordered back in June to get one. 3) "alarm system that meets the requirements of this order and that has been approved in writing by ACO-400"? Not that I've heard of.
Quote:
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17th August 2022, 04:58 PM | #1141 |
Penultimate Amazing
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That'll put Ivanka in an uncomfortable position!
I also hear that Trump is trying to get decent lawyers on his team but keeps getting turned down.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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17th August 2022, 05:41 PM | #1142 |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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17th August 2022, 06:07 PM | #1143 |
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Wow! No wonder Trump's paranoid. He's such scuzzball that his own family turns him in.
It seems clear to me that Trump got a hold of the classified documents and carted them off to Mar-a-Lago by pressing the same I-don't-care-about-the-rules attitude he's been employing for decades. He puts sycophants in important positions and then wears them down with his constant rule breaking tantrums. It seems Jared paid him back. The idea that Trump magically wasn't subject to security procedures and therefore couldn't have improperly removed the documents makes about as much sense as trying to claim that the laws about foundations and charitable giving don't apply because he ignore them when he ran the Trump Foundation. |
17th August 2022, 06:23 PM | #1144 |
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Salon has an article on this. The gist is that Kushner has legal problems of his own and might be trying to save himself by cooperating with the feds. The article seems a bit speculative, so there's no guarantee that it's true.
https://www.salon.com/2022/08/15/mar...rmant_partner/ |
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17th August 2022, 06:38 PM | #1145 |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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17th August 2022, 06:39 PM | #1146 |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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17th August 2022, 06:39 PM | #1147 |
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17th August 2022, 06:46 PM | #1148 |
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17th August 2022, 07:26 PM | #1149 |
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Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
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17th August 2022, 07:43 PM | #1150 |
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To jump off of this:
-Any organization that treated confidential information of any sort the way it was by Trump would fail every certification standard I'm versed in. Document Control is just the most basic of basics. Secret, Top Secret, and SCI document handling has to be more rigorous than ISO:9001 or IATF:16949 standards. -There were quality control records I had to store more securely than these state secrets were kept. This does in fact including signing them out and updating headers and footers. -There were PPAP parts that had stronger controls on them then what Zig is saying were placed on nuclear secrets. If I had to document and secure (yes, in a special locked room) information that was from our suppliers and clients down to control examples of cardboard shipping boxes, why would it be in any way acceptable to take US intel docs to a golfclub basement in Florida. Again, a basement in Florida. Forget the fact that Chinese spies have been caught at Mar-a-Lago before and an unlocked basement of public facing business is not secure from theft, it wouldn't even meet standards for storing internal quality documents completely on dint of it being susceptible to flood damage. |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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17th August 2022, 07:46 PM | #1151 |
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Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot |
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17th August 2022, 07:50 PM | #1152 |
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The possible reasons that I've seen:
1) he didn't start packing until after his Jan. 6 coup attempt failed, and in the haste, classified documents were accidentally packed. 2) he wanted mementos to remind himself and others of how powerful he was. 3) he wanted them for a book he was planning to write (OK, a book that he was planning to pay John Solomon to write). 4) he wanted to keep documents related to the various investigations of him, perhaps with the thought of releasing those that were favorable to his side. 5) he kept documents that he thought he could weaponize for the 2024 campaign. 6) he wanted sensitive documents that he could threaten to release if he was in danger of being put on trial. 7) he wanted to make money by selling the documents. And my own: 8) he was planning to bill the government for storing the documents. I think that 1) can be ruled out, as he could simply have quietly returned the documents and the public would never have known. Michael Cohen thinks that 6) is the best bet. I'm leaning towards 5). |
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17th August 2022, 07:56 PM | #1153 |
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It's 7.
Early in the Trump years, Flynn and others had a plan to sell nuclear secrets to Saudi Arabia. They got blocked by Congress and Flynn had to leave. But they never abandoned the plan. My guess is that the "nuclear" part of the documents, the stuff too classified to put on an inventory, is about stuff like Saudis were going to pay Trump for. And at the Golf Tournament, they were given a glimpse of it, which triggered the Search to remove it before it could be sold. |
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17th August 2022, 08:01 PM | #1154 |
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It's a LOT of documents; it's likely several (still illegal) reasons.
He was caught red-handed. Everything else falls into 'cool motive' territory. |
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Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong |
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17th August 2022, 08:04 PM | #1155 |
Philosopher
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Like a toddler, he didn't understand that they didn't belong to him.
Quote:
"Mine! Mine! Mine! No! No! No!" |
17th August 2022, 08:09 PM | #1156 |
Illuminator
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17th August 2022, 08:19 PM | #1157 |
Maledictorian
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Like a toddler, he knows they are NOT his, but that he might get to keep them if he makes enough fuss.
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“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.” |
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17th August 2022, 09:10 PM | #1158 |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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17th August 2022, 09:17 PM | #1159 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Not to forget that Flynn was on the payroll of the Turkish government, who paid him to get Fethullah Gulen (a Turkish, pro-western cleric, agitator and all-round thorn in the side of Erdogan) officially deported to Turkey by the US Government so that Erdogan's goon squad could off him!
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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17th August 2022, 09:56 PM | #1160 |
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Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot |
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