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View Poll Results: The raid was...
Absolutely a good thing - no question 134 77.46%
An outrage, a travesty - what about Magna Carta? Did she die in vain? 4 2.31%
I'll wait before I make a judgement thank you. 29 16.76%
Mar-X-Lago! 6 3.47%
Voters: 173. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 17th August 2022, 01:15 PM   #1121
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
And again, it doesn't matter what they're classified as, or where they were stored. I'm not sure why it's even that interesting of a sidebar.
Because it's a hijack and the literal only defense the Trumpers have left is to be so wrong about so much that the simple act of pulling them kicking and screaming back to the original wrong we were talking about is just....so exhausting they hope we won't have the energy to explain to them for the 50th time why their original obviously wrong statement was obviously wrong.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:15 PM   #1122
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How is a lack of a paper trail a defense of Trump? That makes no sense. It isn't. Seriously: if you assume (for the sake of argument) I'm right about a lack of a paper trail, does that get Trump off the hook? No, it doesn't. I don't think it does. You don't think it does. Probably no one does. Conversely, if I'm wrong, that doesn't get Trump in any deeper trouble either. So why on earth would you think that this is a defense of Trump, when I'm not claiming it is, no one thinks it is, and I know no one thinks it is?

You've got the stupidest theory of argumentation I've probably ever seen.
It's no more stupid than talking about something that you, yourself, are saying makes no ******* difference at all.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:17 PM   #1123
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You've got the stupidest theory of argumentation I've probably ever seen.
There is no nice way to say that your opinion of my argument strategy means nothing to me.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:18 PM   #1124
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So I guess this answers our question as to "What happens when the Trumpers finally get told what to think."
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:18 PM   #1125
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Uh, no. You're really bad at reading comprehension.
That's pretty good from the guy who thought I was admitting he wasn't trying to defend Trump as I was openly saying Zig is trying but failing to defend Trump.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Which... logically wouldn't excuse Trump, would it? The lack of tracking has nothing to do with whether or not something is an offense, or how severe it is. Which would indeed be a flaw if I were attempting to defend Trump.

But again, I'm not. You have assumed I am, because that's just what you do, but it's not true.
Throwing anything and everything against the wall to see what sticks is a tried and true strategy of the "totally not a Trump defender" Trump defenders. They love to throw out whataboutisms, red-herrings, quible over minutia, and get people focused on anything but their god-king breaking the law. It's certainly been a staple used here for the last 6 years. That these defences are off topic, logically flawed, etc, doesn't mean they aren't used.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:30 PM   #1126
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Okay so now that somebody has been shown that their normal tactics won't work, we can actually have the conversation.

Trump has, yet again in that classic "Every Republican accusation is a confession" way been caught doing something he was constantly accusing others of doing, has shown no remorse or even understanding that he did something wrong, can't keep his story straight to the point that his main narratives contradict himself, I believe we are now at "The FBI planted those documents that I had every right to have."

These are fact and they are not in dispute.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:32 PM   #1127
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It's no more stupid than talking about something that you, yourself, are saying makes no ******* difference at all.
It makes no difference to any possible offense on Trump's part. It makes a difference to how things get discovered.

Which would have been a total non-issue, except that the mere thought that someone might defend Trump is apparently so offensive in and of itself that it couldn't be countenanced. The mere suspicion that something MIGHT be a defense of Trump was enough, no actual examination of the argument on its own merits was necessary. And thus we get people attacking me unnecessarily over something that they don't even actually care about.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:34 PM   #1128
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Trump was told to return the documents - he didn't and had his lawyer lie that he did.
Defending Trump after that is just not reasonable.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:35 PM   #1129
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It makes no difference to any possible offense on Trump's part.
Then it's not the topic.

Your game doesn't work anymore. Accept that.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:35 PM   #1130
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trump was told to return the documents - he didn't and had his lawyer lie that he did.
Defending Trump after that is just not reasonable.
Which is why he isn't, he's trying his best to get us to talk about something else, something even he admits isn't on topic.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:36 PM   #1131
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Says who?

Classified information is supposed to be stored in secure locations, but I know of no generalized requirement, even at the top secret level, that they must be signed in and out for each viewing. Furthermore, multiple rooms in the White House (including the Oval Office) are SCIF secure rooms, so material doesn't even have to leave to be viewed.
Oh? What are your academic or professional credentials that makes you an authority on this topic? Or, what sources can you cite to support your position?

Because certainly you aren't making an assumption after all the criticizing you've made of other posters for doing just that.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:43 PM   #1132
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
It's laughable that he thinks there's no traceability for classified documents.
There are corporate documents that are more tightly controlled that what Zig is describing.
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Old 17th August 2022, 01:55 PM   #1133
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Anyway
Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
Seems to me someone had to sign to get those documents out of secure storage. Who was that?
I'm sure there was a paper trail to a point. It probably goes cold at the White House. The Trump was reportedly very lax with security procedures with staffers struggling to go behind Trump and clean up his messes.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if these documents just fell off the radar beccause "Trump has them" and NARA has been struggling to account for everything ever since.
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Old 17th August 2022, 02:06 PM   #1134
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Interesting bit from today's LegalEagle's video (19ish minute): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekefMUICOGo

Classified documents are marked as such on header and footer of each page, indicating level of classification. Furthermore the records have cover sheet indicating when the document was classified, by whom, under what authority, and when the classification expires.
Declassification requires the documents to be stamped as declassified, again when, by whom and under what authority. Documents not marked as declassified must be treated as classified for handling and storing purposes.

Makes sense .. how else can random person know if the document is currently classified or not ?
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Old 17th August 2022, 02:23 PM   #1135
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I held a Top Secret SCI for 20 years. You are wrong.
Think that'll get him to retract the claim?

I was a navy nuke and even the confidential classified documents had restrictions. One major requirement that is common to all classified documents is a "need." On this standard alone, Trump fails. He has and had no need to have any government documents in his basement.
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Old 17th August 2022, 02:47 PM   #1136
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Interesting bit from today's LegalEagle's video (19ish minute): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekefMUICOGo

Classified documents are marked as such on header and footer of each page, indicating level of classification. Furthermore the records have cover sheet indicating when the document was classified, by whom, under what authority, and when the classification expires.
Declassification requires the documents to be stamped as declassified, again when, by whom and under what authority. Documents not marked as declassified must be treated as classified for handling and storing purposes.

Makes sense .. how else can random person know if the document is currently classified or not ?
I'm not sure if US law is exactly the same as Canadian law, but NATO standard is that everything marks as classified or in a folder marked as classified must be treated as classified even if it isn't. IOW even if Trump legitimately declassified the documents, as long as they still have classified headers footers or cover sheets they still legally must be treated as classified and you would face all the same penalties for mishandling them as you would for materiel that was still classified.
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Old 17th August 2022, 03:09 PM   #1137
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Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian View Post
As a former Military Intelligence officer, I'm wondering the same thing. Ziggurat, do you have any experience handling SCI? I do (although that was a long time ago, it seems apparent that not all that much has changed.)
Thank you (whoever you are) for your service (whatever you did).
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Old 17th August 2022, 04:05 PM   #1138
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Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian View Post
As a former Military Intelligence officer, I'm wondering the same thing. Ziggurat, do you have any experience handling SCI? I do (although that was a long time ago, it seems apparent that not all that much has changed.)
I also held a Top Secret clearance when I was in the military. By way of explanation, this related to anti-submarine warfare (ASW) equipment such as AN-AQA5, and its ancillary systems and equipment that was fitted to or used by our P3C Orion aircraft. The service manuals for this equipment (for example, "Jezebel", MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detector) and the sonobuoys was classified because it contained operating frequencies, pulse widths and PRFs (pulse repetition frequencies) that, if compromised, could allow an enemy submarine to evade detection.

We were compelled to use the US security systems for these manuals and documents, because the US manufactured equipment and its specifications were similar to those used in US Navy Orions and warships, and a compromise of our systems would also compromise theirs

Ziggurat is wrong. Every document and manual was kept in a safe, and was not allowed to be removed from the ASW Servicing Bay except for certain circumstances which I will explain later. To obtain a manual or a document, you had to get a supervisor's authorization. You would then carry out whatever repairs or maintenance that needed carrying out and then return the manual or document to the safe. Manuals and docs were not allowed to be left out of the safe overnight.

There were only two times that a manual or document was permitted to leave the facility. One was to get updated pages put in. The manual or document had to be signed out by the person removing it, over-signed by a supervisor, and then that supervisor would accompany you to the Tech Library, where a tech librarian with the same security clearance, would carry out the page replacements in front of you. The replaced pages would be given back to you, and on return to the ASW Bay, they would be handed to the SNCO i/c of the bay, who would destroy them in the shredder. The other was if the manual was required for ground or airborne testing of the equipment on/in the aircraft. The same signing out procedure applied, and additionally, only personnel with the appropriate security clearances were allowed on the aircraft for this.
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Old 17th August 2022, 04:17 PM   #1139
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
Odd that they apparently knew what documents were at Mar-a-Lago, since they kept asking for documents back. It's like they knew he returned some stuff and they were trying to get the rest back. There is traceability for controlled documents.
I've seen reports in multiple publications that they were tipped off by an informant. Trump's niece and 1 or 2 others have been quoted as saying they suspect that Jared Kushner was the informant.
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Old 17th August 2022, 04:45 PM   #1140
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This is the official guide to storage of Confidential/Secret/Top Secret documents.

Quote:
802. TOP SECRET STORAGE. TOP SECRET material shall be stored in
a GSA-approved security container that has been inspected and
approved by the SSE. TOP SECRET material may, with the prior
approval of ACO-400, also be stored in an approved Class A, B, or
C vault, with supplemental controls. See Appendix 7,
Construction Requirements for Controlled Areas.
I don't think a cardboard box is a GSA- approved security container or that the cardboard boxes were inspected by the SSE.

Quote:
803. TOP SECRET SUPPLEMENTAL CONTROLS. During nonworking hours,
the following area (room, building, or structure) controls are
required for TOP SECRET material.

a. Entry to the area in which the security storage
container is located shall be controlled by a SECRET cleared,
authorized employee or guard stationed to control access to the
area or by a lock which has been approved for that purpose by the
SSE and which provides reasonable protection against
surreptitious entry.

b. The area in which the container is located, or the
container itself, shall be equipped with an alarm system that
meets the requirements of this order and that has been approved
in writing by ACO-400.
Was the basement of Mar-a-Lago have a/an
1) "SECRET cleared, authorized employee or guard stationed to control access to the
area? Not that I've heard.
2) "a lock which has been approved for that purpose by the
SSE and which provides reasonable protection against
surreptitious entry"? NO, since they were ordered back in June to get one.
3) "alarm system that meets the requirements of this order and that has been approved
in writing by ACO-400"? Not that I've heard of.


Quote:
Transporting Top Secret Documents:

5-402. TOP SECRET Transmission Outside a Facility. Written authorization of the GCA is required to transmit TOP SECRET information outside of the facility.

TOP SECRET material may be transmitted by the following methods within and directly between the U. S., Puerto Rico, or a U.S. possession or trust territory.
a. The Defense Courier Service (DCS), if authorized by the GCA.

b. A designated courier or escort cleared for access to TOP SECRET information.

c. By electrical means over CSA approved secured communications security circuits provided such transmission conforms with this Manual, the telecommunications security provisions of the contract, or as otherwise authorized by the GCA.
There is no record of a written authorization of GCA to remove the documents from the WH to MaL. Trump's moving company, JK Moving Services, is not a 'designated courier' or escort' for Top Secret Documents...at least they don't say they have any kind of security clearance on their website even though they discuss moving military, government, and diplomatic familits.
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Old 17th August 2022, 04:58 PM   #1141
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
I've seen reports in multiple publications that they were tipped off by an informant. Trump's niece and 1 or 2 others have been quoted as saying they suspect that Jared Kushner was the informant.
That'll put Ivanka in an uncomfortable position!

I also hear that Trump is trying to get decent lawyers on his team but keeps getting turned down.


Quote:
Former President Donald Trump and his team have spent days since the FBI raid on Mar-a-Lago trying to assemble a "team of respected lawyers" but keep getting rejected, according to The Washington Post.

"Everyone is saying no," a prominent Republican lawyer told the outlet.
Quote:
Jon Sale, a former Watergate prosecutor who is now a prominent Florida defense attorney, told the Post he turned Trump down last week.

"You have to evaluate whether you want to take it," he said. "It's not like a DUI. It's representing the former president of the United States — and maybe the next one — in what's one of the highest-visibility cases ever."
Quote:
The New York Times' Maggie Haberman noted that this is Trump's seventh or eighth legal team since he became president.

"Finding a new one has been a challenge amid his desire to treat this as a short term PR issue as opposed to a longer term legal one," she wrote.
Quote:
"You get these guys who just live to be around him, and mistakes get made," an unnamed attorney told the Post. "These guys just want to make him happy."

"Either the attorney acted in good faith on what turned out to be false factual representations made by Mr. Trump or someone else communicating on his behalf, in which case Mr. Trump or his proxy would have criminal jeopardy for false statements or obstruction of justice, or the attorney knowingly gave false assurances to the government," David Laufman, the former head of the DOJ's counterintelligence division, told the Post. "And it's hard to believe that a lawyer knowingly would have lied to the government about the continued presence of classified documents."

Trump, who has faced myriad legal scandals from two impeachments to local criminal investigations, has repeatedly struggled to find elite attorneys to represent him.


"In olden days, he would tell firms representing him was a benefit because they could advertise off it. Today it's not the same," former Trump lawyer-turned-critic Michael Cohen told the Post. "He's also a very difficult client in that he's always pushing the envelope, he rarely listens to sound legal advice, and he wants you to do things that are not appropriate, ethically or legally."

Another attorney recalled Trump's legal team urging him to avoid tweeting about the Mueller investigation early in his presidency only to see a tweet about it before they even got to the end of the White House driveway. "Several people said Trump was nearly impossible to represent and that it would be unclear if they would ever get paid," the Post reported.

"This is not good," one Trump confidant told the outlet. "Something big is going to pop. Somebody needs to be in charge."
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Old 17th August 2022, 05:41 PM   #1142
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post

I also hear that Trump is trying to get decent lawyers on his team but keeps getting turned down.
Quote:
Former President Donald Trump and his team have spent days since the FBI raid on Mar-a-Lago trying to assemble a "team of respected lawyers" but keep getting rejected, according to The Washington Post.

"Everyone is saying no," a prominent Republican lawyer told the outlet.
Well those are the consequences of refusing to pay your lawyers, and throwing them under the bus!

Karma really sucks, doesn't it, you Fat Orange Turd!!!
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Old 17th August 2022, 06:07 PM   #1143
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
I've seen reports in multiple publications that they were tipped off by an informant. Trump's niece and 1 or 2 others have been quoted as saying they suspect that Jared Kushner was the informant.
Wow! No wonder Trump's paranoid. He's such scuzzball that his own family turns him in.

It seems clear to me that Trump got a hold of the classified documents and carted them off to Mar-a-Lago by pressing the same I-don't-care-about-the-rules attitude he's been employing for decades.

He puts sycophants in important positions and then wears them down with his constant rule breaking tantrums. It seems Jared paid him back.

The idea that Trump magically wasn't subject to security procedures and therefore couldn't have improperly removed the documents makes about as much sense as trying to claim that the laws about foundations and charitable giving don't apply because he ignore them when he ran the Trump Foundation.
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Old 17th August 2022, 06:23 PM   #1144
TellyKNeasuss
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
I've seen reports in multiple publications that they were tipped off by an informant. Trump's niece and 1 or 2 others have been quoted as saying they suspect that Jared Kushner was the informant.
Salon has an article on this. The gist is that Kushner has legal problems of his own and might be trying to save himself by cooperating with the feds. The article seems a bit speculative, so there's no guarantee that it's true.

https://www.salon.com/2022/08/15/mar...rmant_partner/
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Old 17th August 2022, 06:38 PM   #1145
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well those are the consequences of refusing to pay your lawyers, and throwing them under the bus!

Karma really sucks, doesn't it, you Fat Orange Turd!!!
The really good Lawyers like to get paid.
Funny, that.
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Old 17th August 2022, 06:39 PM   #1146
dudalb
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Wow! No wonder Trump's paranoid. He's such scuzzball that his own family turns him in.

It seems clear to me that Trump got a hold of the classified documents and carted them off to Mar-a-Lago by pressing the same I-don't-care-about-the-rules attitude he's been employing for decades.

He puts sycophants in important positions and then wears them down with his constant rule breaking tantrums. It seems Jared paid him back.

The idea that Trump magically wasn't subject to security procedures and therefore couldn't have improperly removed the documents makes about as much sense as trying to claim that the laws about foundations and charitable giving don't apply because he ignore them when he ran the Trump Foundation.
What I want to know is why did he take them?
I really doubt he did it just because he could.
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Old 17th August 2022, 06:39 PM   #1147
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The really good Lawyers like to get paid.
Funny, that.
And Saul Goodman is in prison.
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Old 17th August 2022, 06:46 PM   #1148
Regnad Kcin
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The really good Lawyers like to get paid.
Funny, that.
So short sighted. Don’t they know they could advertise off it?
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Old 17th August 2022, 07:26 PM   #1149
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The really good Lawyers like to get paid.
Funny, that.
Trump figures that working for him is payment enough.
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Old 17th August 2022, 07:43 PM   #1150
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
There are corporate documents that are more tightly controlled that what Zig is describing.
To jump off of this:

-Any organization that treated confidential information of any sort the way it was by Trump would fail every certification standard I'm versed in. Document Control is just the most basic of basics. Secret, Top Secret, and SCI document handling has to be more rigorous than ISO:9001 or IATF:16949 standards.

-There were quality control records I had to store more securely than these state secrets were kept. This does in fact including signing them out and updating headers and footers.

-There were PPAP parts that had stronger controls on them then what Zig is saying were placed on nuclear secrets. If I had to document and secure (yes, in a special locked room) information that was from our suppliers and clients down to control examples of cardboard shipping boxes, why would it be in any way acceptable to take US intel docs to a golfclub basement in Florida.

Again, a basement in Florida. Forget the fact that Chinese spies have been caught at Mar-a-Lago before and an unlocked basement of public facing business is not secure from theft, it wouldn't even meet standards for storing internal quality documents completely on dint of it being susceptible to flood damage.
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Old 17th August 2022, 07:46 PM   #1151
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The really good Lawyers like to get paid.

Funny, that.
Thing is, the Republican party has been paying his legal bills. (Not sure if they still are, or if Trump might be too toxic to continue doing so)

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Old 17th August 2022, 07:50 PM   #1152
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What I want to know is why did he take them?
I really doubt he did it just because he could.
The possible reasons that I've seen:
1) he didn't start packing until after his Jan. 6 coup attempt failed, and in the haste, classified documents were accidentally packed.
2) he wanted mementos to remind himself and others of how powerful he was.
3) he wanted them for a book he was planning to write (OK, a book that he was planning to pay John Solomon to write).
4) he wanted to keep documents related to the various investigations of him, perhaps with the thought of releasing those that were favorable to his side.
5) he kept documents that he thought he could weaponize for the 2024 campaign.
6) he wanted sensitive documents that he could threaten to release if he was in danger of being put on trial.
7) he wanted to make money by selling the documents.

And my own:
8) he was planning to bill the government for storing the documents.

I think that 1) can be ruled out, as he could simply have quietly returned the documents and the public would never have known. Michael Cohen thinks that 6) is the best bet. I'm leaning towards 5).
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Old 17th August 2022, 07:56 PM   #1153
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It's 7.
Early in the Trump years, Flynn and others had a plan to sell nuclear secrets to Saudi Arabia. They got blocked by Congress and Flynn had to leave.
But they never abandoned the plan.

My guess is that the "nuclear" part of the documents, the stuff too classified to put on an inventory, is about stuff like Saudis were going to pay Trump for. And at the Golf Tournament, they were given a glimpse of it, which triggered the Search to remove it before it could be sold.
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Old 17th August 2022, 08:01 PM   #1154
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It's a LOT of documents; it's likely several (still illegal) reasons.

He was caught red-handed. Everything else falls into 'cool motive' territory.
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Old 17th August 2022, 08:04 PM   #1155
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What I want to know is why did he take them?
I really doubt he did it just because he could.

Like a toddler, he didn't understand that they didn't belong to him.


Quote:
Donald Trump was warned that the records he was holding on to were illegally retained, but the former president refused to give them back because he disagreed with that assertion, a new report claims.

The New York Times reported on Tuesday that Mr Trump flat-out refused to return boxes of documents, including some that apparently were marked classified, when approached by his former deputy White House counsel, Patrick Philbin.

And he wasn’t alone – multiple other aides to the president reportedly told him the same thing. But Mr Trump resisted, telling them “it’s not theirs, it’s mine” on several occasions, referring to the stash of documents.

"Mine! Mine! Mine! No! No! No!"

Last edited by Armitage72; 17th August 2022 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 17th August 2022, 08:09 PM   #1156
arayder
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's 7.
Early in the Trump years, Flynn and others had a plan to sell nuclear secrets to Saudi Arabia. They got blocked by Congress and Flynn had to leave.
But they never abandoned the plan.

My guess is that the "nuclear" part of the documents, the stuff too classified to put on an inventory, is about stuff like Saudis were going to pay Trump for. And at the Golf Tournament, they were given a glimpse of it, which triggered the Search to remove it before it could be sold.
Donnie's such a loser that he doesn't realize that there is nothing he could sell the Saudis that they don't already know.

My guess is that they are trying to stay on his good side in the event that he wins back the presidency in 2024.

Last edited by arayder; 17th August 2022 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 17th August 2022, 08:19 PM   #1157
The Great Zaganza
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Like a toddler, he knows they are NOT his, but that he might get to keep them if he makes enough fuss.
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Old 17th August 2022, 09:10 PM   #1158
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
3) he wanted them for a book he was planning to write (OK, a book that he was planning to not pay John Solomon to write)
FTFY
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Old 17th August 2022, 09:17 PM   #1159
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's 7.
Early in the Trump years, Flynn and others had a plan to sell nuclear secrets to Saudi Arabia. They got blocked by Congress and Flynn had to leave.
But they never abandoned the plan.
Not to forget that Flynn was on the payroll of the Turkish government, who paid him to get Fethullah Gulen (a Turkish, pro-western cleric, agitator and all-round thorn in the side of Erdogan) officially deported to Turkey by the US Government so that Erdogan's goon squad could off him!
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Old 17th August 2022, 09:56 PM   #1160
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
I've seen reports in multiple publications that they were tipped off by an informant. Trump's niece and 1 or 2 others have been quoted as saying they suspect that Jared Kushner was the informant.
Possible. If I had to guess I would say it may be some no-name secretary or similar worker who might have seen the documents there and actually had a sense of morality.
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