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3rd June 2022, 04:31 PM | #1 |
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Trans women are not women (IX)
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3rd June 2022, 04:37 PM | #2 |
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I'd also add that most of us Gender Criticals were previously quite willing to make accommodations on a case-by-case basis as the need presented itself. But we keep being told that we cannot make case-by-case decisions, that we *MUST* grant accommodation and access to *ANY* male who claims a gendery feel, and if we do not do so, we are transphobic bigots.
And when we're forced to choose between all or none, well, my answer is none. |
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3rd June 2022, 04:51 PM | #3 |
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Someone in another thread told me that gender identity is largely a matter of which public toilet you choose, that if you knew to choose the men's toilet then you knew you were a man
It didn't make a lot of sense to me but he/she said he couldn't clarify it or answer any questions about it and that thread and that I should ask about it in this thread. Anyone know anything about this? If not then sorry to interrupt but the two people who were pushing this theory were insistent I come over.here if I wanted to know more about it. Yes, maybe they were just yanking my chain (so to speak) but they seemed very sincere. |
3rd June 2022, 05:14 PM | #4 |
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3rd June 2022, 05:53 PM | #5 |
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That's a new one.
For my answer, I would respond much as I did to Dani. Give me a definition, and maybe I can answer, but definitions are kind of sparse in this neighborhood. They are sought far more than they are provided. Maybe more context would make it make more sense, but I'm puzzled given just the stuff you have there. |
3rd June 2022, 06:37 PM | #6 |
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There are relatively few situations when one is forced to choose between gender roles, i.e. the set of "behaviors...generally considered acceptable, appropriate, or desirable" for males or the set considered acceptable for females. Upthread we've discussed various sports leagues, changing rooms, sleeper cars, swimming or spa facilities, clothing stores, etc. but the situation which comes up most often in everyday life would have to be public toilets.
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4th June 2022, 07:25 AM | #7 | ||||
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Trans women are not women (IX)
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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4th June 2022, 08:10 AM | #8 |
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A quick addendum to this post. The everyday act of having to choose between behaviour considered socially acceptable for males (entering the men's restroom) and behaviour considered socially acceptable for females (entering the women's restroom) is generally considered oppressive by transgender individuals who identify as non-binary. This is why progressive conferences like Skepticon will go to some pains to provide gender neutral restrooms among other accessibility features. I imagine that agender folks (like Robin) would enjoy not having to undergo the ordeal of implicitly self-identifying whenever they need to take a leak.
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4th June 2022, 08:40 AM | #9 | |||
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6th June 2022, 05:02 AM | #10 | |||
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Interested in a skeptical take on the claims about puberty blockers just after 9:40 or so. |
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6th June 2022, 07:29 AM | #11 |
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We've discussed this several times in the thread. The claims are completely false.
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6th June 2022, 07:53 AM | #12 |
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6th June 2022, 08:24 AM | #13 |
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I see that thing that never happens has happened again. And again, and again.
Trans-Identified Male Paedophile Avoids Jail After Being Caught With 125,000 Child Sex Abuse Images
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I do not know whether this should be interpreted as indicating a particularly pernicious propensity for abhorrent behaviour on the part of transwomen, or the opportunistic behaviour of sex offenders who have realised that claiming a trans identity may spare them prison entirely, and even if it doesn't, is likely to see them serving their sentences locked up with a bunch of women who can't get away from them. It doesn't really matter, because with self-ID there is no way to tell the difference, and in practical terms the effect is the same. |
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6th June 2022, 08:38 AM | #14 |
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I guess evidence that this sentence was unusually lenient is supposed to be assumed?
The judge in the case cited a number of factors, including the offender seeking counseling after arrest, good behavior pending trial, an assessment by court officials that Selby was "manageable" in the community. Is there any evidence that a cis person in a similar circumstance would not have received a similar outcome? |
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6th June 2022, 08:57 AM | #15 |
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I was hoping for a little more detailed discussion rather than conclusory assertion.
On the one hand, we have articles like this one, which claims "Puberty blockers, GnRh agonists like the injectable Lupron or the implant Supprelin, suppress puberty by modifying hormone release. Such drugs have been used off-label safely for more than 30 years to stop early puberty." On the other hand, we have articles like this one. |
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6th June 2022, 08:58 AM | #16 |
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Honestly, it's in this actual thread and I spent a lot of time typing it all out. It was a pretty in-depth discussion.
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6th June 2022, 08:59 AM | #17 |
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6th June 2022, 09:00 AM | #18 |
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6th June 2022, 09:08 AM | #19 |
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6th June 2022, 09:16 AM | #20 |
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The UK has invented quite a pointlessly complex problem because it technically allows people to officially transition and avoid any ambiguity, but in practice makes this a long and difficult process to complete.
The UK law requires trans people to have been living their gender identity for at least 2 years before any legal recognition is granted. This obviously creates an opportunity for ambiguity where an "out" trans person is still not granted any official status for years at a time. |
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6th June 2022, 09:16 AM | #21 |
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Took me two seconds.
https://www.scdailypress.com/2016/10...ild-porn-case/ Here's a local case, if that matters to you. I had to use slightly different search terms, so this took me about five seconds. https://www.cps.gov.uk/west-midlands...hibited-images |
6th June 2022, 09:29 AM | #22 |
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6th June 2022, 09:41 AM | #23 |
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6th June 2022, 09:43 AM | #24 |
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Puberty blockers are used very differently for precocious puberty compared to their use with gender dysphoria.
Children prescribed blockers for precocious puberty are prescribed them when the onset of puberty falls below the normal range, and are on them for a relatively short time, then resume puberty within the normal time frame. Puberty blockers for GD are prescribed to prevent puberty within the normal time frame and can be prescribed as early as Tanner Stage 2 of puberty, which can be 10-12 years. Even in not prescribed until age 12, most children stay on them until the begin CSH treatment at 16, which is much longer than when use for PP. If the child then goes off blockers, they will be undergoing puberty outside the normal time frame and not in synchrony with their peers. The long-term social, cognitive, neurological and physical effects of this are not known. Almost all children prescribed blockers go on to CSH, yet before the advent of the affirmation-only approach the majority of cases of GD resolved at puberty. Puberty blockers may prevent the natural resolution of GD at puberty. If children go straight to CSH treatment they will never go through natural puberty. There is no evidence that treatment with CSHs produces the same effects as natural puberty, - particularly the effects on brain development, which occurs in complex stages during natural puberty. The claim that blockers are reversible is false, even if children do resume normal puberty. The effects of not going through puberty during the normal time scale are not reversible, and the long-term effects of delaying are not known, since it is argued that puberty is a critical period for brain development. |
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6th June 2022, 09:50 AM | #25 |
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You might want to look at the Cass review, even though it is only an interim report. You can download here.
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6th June 2022, 09:52 AM | #26 |
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6th June 2022, 10:02 AM | #27 |
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Seems to be province-by-province in Canada, similar to the US. But that's probably even better for answering questions like "Is there a surge of opportunistic trans self-identification among those accused of possessing child pornography when self-id is introduced?" if anyone is genuinely interested in that question.
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6th June 2022, 10:37 AM | #28 |
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How did they miss the opportunity to title this thread installment Trans women are not Women (YX)?
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6th June 2022, 10:40 AM | #29 |
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6th June 2022, 10:54 AM | #30 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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6th June 2022, 11:26 AM | #31 |
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6th June 2022, 11:48 AM | #32 |
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"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
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6th June 2022, 11:55 AM | #33 |
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6th June 2022, 01:26 PM | #34 |
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Thanks! Will do.
Right, but if they prove dangerous in the former case then surely they are at least as dangerous in the latter. Right, and we seem to lack studies comparing CSH to natural puberty in terms of brain and body development. If this claim is true, then sending young people down the path of blockers followed by cross-sex hormones may be denying them resolution to their dysphoria in addition to denying them ordinary sexual function. I would think those who advocate for trans youth would be very concerned about this possibility. Sounds to me like they are only partially reversible, depending on time frame and follow-on treatment. |
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6th June 2022, 02:18 PM | #35 |
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The Cass review mentions a study on page 39, section 3.33 'An international interdisciplinary panel42 has highlighted the importance of understanding the neurodevelopmental outcomes of pubertal suppression and defined an appropriate approach for investigating this further. However, this work has not yet been undertaken.'
This study is 'Chen D, Strang JF, Kolbuck VD, Rosenthal SM, Wallen K, Waber DP, et al (2020). Consensus parameter: research methodologies to evaluate neurodevelopmental effects of pubertal suppression in transgender youth. Transgender Health 5(4). ' The article is about establishing the best approach to study the long-term effects of puberty blockade on brain development, given that we don't know anything about these effects in humans. This article is the same one linked to on Science Based Medicine's guest article (by a pro-affirmation doctor) to support a claim that 'Studies on brain development have found no significant differences in youth on blockers'. This was pointed out several times in comments and never corrected. They literally don't care that they are linking to articles that blatantly contradict the claims.
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Moreover, they don't actually care anyway - if you press the point they will say it doesn't matter and you are being transphobic by implying that being trans is worse than being cis. |
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6th June 2022, 03:01 PM | #36 |
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I'm pretty sure that in every way that matters, being trans is worse than being cis. That is, suffering from gender dysphoria, and having to make a substantial effort to mitigate the distress (including hormonal subversion and extensive body modification), and still having to deal with a society that responds more positively to cis coding, has got to be worse than not dealing with any of that.
Kind of like how having BIID is worse than... not having BIID. Even if you do feel better after cutting off your legs. On the other hand, if you just want to "queer" or "hack" the social constructs of gender for fun or ideology, I don't think that's any worse than playing along with them. On the third hand (the one that the the third sex uses for third sex stuff), if you want to "queer" or "hack" sex segregation for whatever reason, then again we're back to that being worse than not that. |
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6th June 2022, 05:22 PM | #37 |
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So... here's the thing. That group of drugs are NOT dangerous for precocious puberty, but they ARE dangerous as puberty blockers, and they ARE dangerous post-puberty.
They disrupt the body's production of sex hormones. Pre-pubertal kids don't have those hormones in any material amounts. Precocious puberty occurs when one set of pubertal processes occurs much earlier than normal - and occurs out of concert with the other processes. In particular, there are two major processes that make up puberty: the pituitary process and the adrenal process. The pituitary process prompts the body to produce sex hormones, and the development of mature sexual organs and some secondary sex characteristics. The adrenal process prompts the lengthening of the long bones and the development of leg and pubic hair. The two are supposed to happen in concert over a period of time, they're processes that depend on each other to operate correctly. In precocious puberty, the pituitary process starts early, before the adrenal process begins. And it leads to health risks when the two don't happen in tandem. So for a person with precocious puberty, the blockers prevent their body producing sex hormones until the adrenal process begins. On the other hand... if the adrenal process begins but the pituitary process does NOT trigger... there are a lot of health problems too. Bones density accretion is blocked, leading to fragile bones and osteopenia/osteoporosis. Cognitive maturation is derailed, as sexual maturity and interactions around romantic partnering are developed during puberty. The risk of several other illnesses (can't remember them all) is increased as well. This is what puberty blockers do when they are applied to a child who should be going through pubertal development. It also happens with some other medical conditions, and those kids need to take hormone supplements to counter those risks. Blocking hormones in adults is also a problem, as we're evolved to use those hormones as adults. There are a lot of late-age problems in women that are directly caused by the reduction in estrogen that we experience in menopause. Men experiencing a reduction in testosterone also have health problems. |
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6th June 2022, 08:35 PM | #38 |
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What always struck me as weird about the claim that puberty blockers are reversible is that for precocious puberty, you don’t want the effects to be reversible. You want to absolutely prevent precocious puberty from happening, because it produces bad effects. And when you take a child off puberty blockers later, precocious puberty doesn’t resume. You have permanently prevented it. If the effects were reversible, it wouldn’t be much use for that treatment.
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6th June 2022, 10:44 PM | #39 |
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The effect is, like it says on the tin, blocking puberty. I'd think you would eventually want to reverse that.
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Precocious puberty doesn't resume because precocious puberty is not a process. Puberty is.
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7th June 2022, 03:07 AM | #40 |
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Puberty which happens too early doesn’t produce normal results.
Puberty which happens too late doesn’t produce normal results. Neither of these is reversible. The effects of using puberty blockers is not reversible. The claim that they are is a lie, and a transparent one at that. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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