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Old 30th July 2022, 09:22 AM   #1
Gord_in_Toronto
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Condoms and Consent

Mod InfoThis thread was split from here. Please ensure you are posting in the proper thread.
Posted By:xjx388


Not sure that this needs a thread of its own but it seems to fit here:

Supreme Court rules not wearing condom against partner's wishes could lead to sexual assault conviction


(It's Canada. In Case you were wondering.)
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Old 30th July 2022, 10:10 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
It was 45 months for rape. That seams lenient.
Rape? If the rubber broke would it be rape, because the effect would be exactly the same?
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Old 30th July 2022, 10:25 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Rape? If the rubber broke would it be rape, because the effect would be exactly the same?
Are you being deliberately obtuse?

If your car loses steering control because of mechanical error, you're not guilty of vehicular homicide when you hit someone.

If you drive into someone on purpose, you are.

Edited by sarge:  Removed off-topic content
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Old 30th July 2022, 10:45 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Rape? If the rubber broke would it be rape, because the effect would be exactly the same?
Look up mens rea and actus reus.
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Old 31st July 2022, 11:19 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Rape? If the rubber broke would it be rape, because the effect would be exactly the same?
Your not this stupid. So stop it.
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Old 1st August 2022, 02:20 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Rape? If the rubber broke would it be rape, because the effect would be exactly the same?
It's the same as how a woman who lies about being on the pill should be put away for life. It's the only progressive response.

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Old 1st August 2022, 05:03 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
It's the same as how a woman who lies about being on the pill should be put away for life. It's the only progressive response.
The pill only protects against pregnancy, not disease. Condoms do both, therefore it is a more serious matter to omit a condom than the pill.
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Old 1st August 2022, 05:05 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The pill only protects against pregnancy, not disease. Condoms do both, therefore it is a more serious matter to omit a condom than the pill.
12 months then?
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Old 1st August 2022, 06:32 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
It's the same as how a woman who lies about being on the pill should be put away for life. It's the only progressive response.
This implication being that the woman wanted to get pregnant by a man who didn't want to impregnate her? Or are you implying that she sexually assaulted him by lying?

I'm not sure how this relates to the condom situation. In that circumstance they had an agreement that the sex would happen with him wearing a condom to protect them both.

Is your hypothetical the same thing? Where it's sex work rather than just a random hook up?
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Old 1st August 2022, 07:07 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
This implication being that the woman wanted to get pregnant by a man who didn't want to impregnate her? Or are you implying that she sexually assaulted him by lying?

I'm not sure how this relates to the condom situation. In that circumstance they had an agreement that the sex would happen with him wearing a condom to protect them both.

Is your hypothetical the same thing? Where it's sex work rather than just a random hook up?
If we are being outraged over issues of informed consent, or harm, I don't see why we shouldn't be consistent. If somebody lies about their STD status, contraception status etc... I don't see the difference. It all seems kind of hard to enforce, but if we are going down that road, let's do it consistently. Presumably the fundamental issue doesn't hang on penises.
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Old 1st August 2022, 07:36 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If we are being outraged over issues of informed consent, or harm, I don't see why we shouldn't be consistent. If somebody lies about their STD status, contraception status etc... I don't see the difference. It all seems kind of hard to enforce, but if we are going down that road, let's do it consistently. Presumably the fundamental issue doesn't hang on penises.
It might not "hang on penises", but the case in this conversation does.

Safe, protected sex is completely different than unprotected sex, especially when your career is based around having protected sex and staying healthy.

The fact is he changed the circumstances around the sex, and based on that, the woman changed her consent. Despite her not consenting he continued to have sex with her. That's rape. That's the definition of rape.
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Old 1st August 2022, 08:00 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It might not "hang on penises", but the case in this conversation does.

Safe, protected sex is completely different than unprotected sex, especially when your career is based around having protected sex and staying healthy.

The fact is he changed the circumstances around the sex, and based on that the woman changed her consent. Despite her not consenting he continued to have sex with her. That's rape. That's the definition of rape.
I'm not arguing against him being punished, or the length of the punishment. I'm interested in the underlying ideas. If the issue here is that she consented to have sex, but not without a condom... then I don't see any great fundamental difference to sex where you have been misinformed about something else significant, like having some STI, or being on the pill.

The whole concept of rape seems to me to be in a weird kind of half way house where we still have the old, taboo "of my God penis!" aspect of it, at the same time as viewing it as something like a breach of contract amounting to fraud.
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Old 1st August 2022, 08:09 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'm not arguing against him being punished, or the length of the punishment. I'm interested in the underlying ideas. If the issue here is that she consented to have sex, but not without a condom... then I don't see any great fundamental difference to sex where you have been misinformed about something else significant, like having some STI, or being on the pill.
I don't know about other countries but in the US it's illegal to have unprotected sex while knowingly having an STI.

Being\not being on the pill, I have no idea what you're going on about there. It would only have an effect if the woman became pregnant. I can't imagine why she would lie about that so I'm going to need a plausible scenario where that might happen. Where would she come out ahead in that situation?

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
The whole concept of rape seems to me to be in a weird kind of half way house where we still have the old, taboo "of my God penis!" aspect of it, at the same time as viewing it as something like a breach of contract amounting to fraud.
I have no ******* clue what this garbled mess of word salad means at all. Try cleaning it up and get back to me.

The reason men are generally the rapists rather than the victims should be pretty obvious. If, for some reason, you can't figure that out then I'm not sure I can help you.
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Old 1st August 2022, 08:52 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Your not this stupid. So stop it.
Calling it rape is stupid, as revealed by the relatively short sentence, or are a lot of people here fine with a rape sentence of less than 4 years?

It's not rape, it's something else.
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Old 1st August 2022, 09:20 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It's not rape, it's something else.
I'm not so sure. If one's permission is conditional, and that condition is not met, then permission is withdrawn. Sex without permission is rape. It seems like a fairly valid position to me.
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Old 1st August 2022, 09:57 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
I'm not so sure. If one's permission is conditional, and that condition is not met, then permission is withdrawn. Sex without permission is rape. It seems like a fairly valid position to me.
Well said, I don't understand how this could confuse anyone at all.
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Old 1st August 2022, 02:31 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Calling it rape is stupid, as revealed by the relatively short sentence, or are a lot of people here fine with a rape sentence of less than 4 years?.
This is the general trend though isn't it? Ever widening scope of these words.
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Old 1st August 2022, 02:46 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
This is the general trend though isn't it? Ever widening scope of these words.
I don't see the scope of the words being widened here. Sex without permission is rape...

... Or is it?

Men and women both often misrepresent themselves - their social status, their income level, etc. - to make themselves seem a sufficiently desirable partner as to excite their date's sexual impulses. If, after their mutually satisfactory coupling, it transpires that the dude is a working-class schlub in a rented Mercedes, did he commit rape?

Or is a woman responsible for doing her own due diligence on her date, in a way that she's not responsible for making sure he keeps his condom on the entire time?
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Old 1st August 2022, 02:57 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
...is a woman responsible for doing her own due diligence on her date, in a way that she's not responsible for making sure he keeps his condom on the entire time?
I'd say that when someone agrees to wear a condom (or a diaphram, or any other barrier method) they have incurred a moral duty to wear it well and throughout and report any breakage right when it happens.

I'd also say that the analogy to socioeconomic status doesn't quite work.
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Old 1st August 2022, 03:11 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'd say that when someone agrees to wear a condom (or a diaphram, or any other barrier method) they have incurred a moral duty to wear it well and throughout and report any breakage right when it happens.

I'd also say that the analogy to socioeconomic status doesn't quite work.
Why? Would this not mean it isn't purely about consent? If somebody agrees to have sex on conditions that are known to the other party, and that other party has sex knowing that those conditions having been met, then there is no consent... no? If there is no consent, then it's rape.... so long as the perpetrator did the filthy deed with a penis for some reason.
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Old 1st August 2022, 03:13 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Why? Would this not mean it isn't purely about consent? If somebody agrees to have sex on conditions that are known to the other party, and that other party has sex knowing that those conditions having been met, then there is no consent... no? If there is no consent, then it's rape.... so long as the perpetrator did the filthy deed with a penis for some reason.
It's only rape if it's done with a penis - that would be the reason.

https://www.met.police.uk/advice/adv...exual-assault/
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Old 1st August 2022, 03:17 PM   #22
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Can we give the "only rape if penis" meme a rest? We all know some jurisdictions are weirdly regressive, still. No need to belabor the point every time, as if you've got a novel observation.
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Old 1st August 2022, 03:24 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
It's only rape if it's done with a penis - that would be the reason.

https://www.met.police.uk/advice/adv...exual-assault/
Well, indeed. That comes from the ancient origins of the crime where women were delicate flowers whose honour, purity and fidelity was sacred in a way that a man's wasn't. For some reason we have kept the penis part the same, while adding in every other orifice and turning the issue at stake to be one of fraud rather than honour. Why a man forcing himself on a man or woman or tricking a man or woman into sex is shocking in a way that a woman forcing herself on (or tricking) a man or another woman isn't escapes me. Apparently we were able to see the parallel between vaginas, anuses and mouths.... but penises stand alone.
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Old 1st August 2022, 03:33 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Can we give the "only rape if penis" meme a rest? We all know some jurisdictions are weirdly regressive, still. No need to belabor the point every time, as if you've got a novel observation.
I'm aware it isn't a novel idea. I'm more into the history and ideas behind the crime. If we are going to talk about consent, it seems interesting and relevant to me that there has been this shift in what the crime is about and that in some ways both old and new ideas are still in play. I don't think it is really possible to draw a coherent line on consent if you are going to go into legislating having sex under false pretences. Is the general principle that lying about contraception is rape, or that fraudulently exposing somebody to a risk of an STI is rape? Making it specific to condoms seems weird to me.
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Old 1st August 2022, 03:58 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Calling it rape is stupid, as revealed by the relatively short sentence, or are a lot of people here fine with a rape sentence of less than 4 years?

It's not rape, it's something else.
Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
I'm not so sure. If one's permission is conditional, and that condition is not met, then permission is withdrawn. Sex without permission is rape. It seems like a fairly valid position to me.
Yeah, it would be strange to see it any other way because then things like 'rape by deception' where one pretends to be an entirely different person wouldn't be rape.

If one consents to sex wit Veronica, and Betty sneaks into the bedroom in the dark and starts engage in sex, that's pretty clearly not something one consented to. If one consents to sex with specific forms of protection, it does not follow that one consented to sex without it any more than they consented to sex with a different person.
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Old 1st August 2022, 05:14 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Would this not mean it isn't purely about consent?
Of course consent isn't the only factor in the moral calculus, but in the case I described (at least) one party consented on the implicit understanding that the barrier method would be used to forestall foreseeable consequences.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If somebody agrees to have sex on conditions that are known to the other party, and that other party has sex knowing that those conditions [have not] been met...
Depends on how relevant those conditions are to the sex, IMO.

Lying about one's middle name wouldn't vitiate consent, lying about one's HIV status probably should.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 02:16 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yeah, it would be strange to see it any other way because then things like 'rape by deception' where one pretends to be an entirely different person wouldn't be rape.

If one consents to sex wit Veronica, and Betty sneaks into the bedroom in the dark and starts engage in sex, that's pretty clearly not something one consented to. If one consents to sex with specific forms of protection, it does not follow that one consented to sex without it any more than they consented to sex with a different person.
There is a case in the UK that drew a lot of attention obviously for the titillation: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...riend-into-sex

That conviction rested on whether the consent given was valid or not because of the deception involved.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 02:20 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
...snip...

Lying about one's middle name wouldn't vitiate consent, lying about one's HIV status probably should.
In the UK that has been prosecuted as GBH: https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/21/man-j...h-hiv-7968061/
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Old 2nd August 2022, 02:25 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Depends on how relevant those conditions are to the sex, IMO.

Lying about one's middle name wouldn't vitiate consent, lying about one's HIV status probably should.
What other things are involved in whether something is rape than consent? If we are going with relevance as a factor, then we are second guessing the persons reasons for not consenting, no?
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Old 2nd August 2022, 05:44 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
It's only rape if it's done with a penis - that would be the reason.

https://www.met.police.uk/advice/adv...exual-assault/
That varies on jurisdiction and the exact name of the crime.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 06:14 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
What other things are involved in whether something is rape than consent? If we are going with relevance as a factor, then we are second guessing the persons reasons for not consenting, no?
Does it matter whether it is called rape or sexual assault of some kind?
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Old 2nd August 2022, 06:19 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Does it matter whether it is called rape or sexual assault of some kind?
Is rape still rape when the crime is called something other than rape?

Take michigan technically if you have commit adultery(a felony in michigan) you also commit the exact same crime as raping an 8 year old because you had sex while committing a felony. This has been used to charge people who traded drugs for sex with rape and give them life on the sex offender registry.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 06:23 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Does it matter whether it is called rape or sexual assault of some kind?
Only to horrible people.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 07:01 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Only to horrible people.
It's so odd that this has turned into a philosophical debate. It's like some people just need to find a way to bring up a scenario where the woman can be at fault lol.

"You guys, guys. I get that a man ripped off his condom, but lets make up a ton of ways a woman could also be to blame. That's interesting to me."
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Old 2nd August 2022, 07:05 AM   #35
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Does it matter whether it is called rape or sexual assault of some kind?
A few thoughts.
1. Presumably we have some concept that we are trying to encapsulate in the category "rape". We wouldn't just lump stealing liquorice in there and not see that as incongruous.
2. What we choose to put in these categories has an impact on the real world. Is it rape if you had a drink and regret it when you are sober? This has a huge impact on statistics, and hence policy.
3. Rape is a very emotive word. If we haven't got a clear idea of the concept behind it, then what is our motivation for expanding the activities that the word applies to?
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Old 2nd August 2022, 07:07 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It's so odd that this has turned into a philosophical debate. It's like some people just need to find a way to bring up a scenario where the woman can be at fault lol.

"You guys, guys. I get that a man ripped off his condom, but lets make up a ton of ways a woman could also be to blame. That's interesting to me."
If we don't go philosophical, what is there to talk about? She supposedly said he had to use a condom, he took it off, she immediately ran to report it. He's in the wrong. What more is to be said on the case?
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Old 2nd August 2022, 07:12 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
A few thoughts.
That's being gracious.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
1. Presumably we have some concept that we are trying to encapsulate in the category "rape". We wouldn't just lump stealing liquorice in there and not see that as incongruous.
Unwanted penetration, if you're a female. It's harder for a woman to rape, but it would be the same context. If a man were sleeping, had an erection, and a female unwantedly started having sex with him, that would also be rape.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
2. What we choose to put in these categories has an impact on the real world. Is it rape if you had a drink and regret it when you are sober? This has a huge impact on statistics, and hence policy.
Can you find a case where this has happened? But no, that obviously wouldn't be rape. Regrets happen, but if you were both in a similar state of mind, neither individual were forced, and it was consensual throughout, then that wouldn't be rape. Duh.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
3. Rape is a very emotive word.
Triggering for some, apparently.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If we haven't got a clear idea of the concept behind it, then what is our motivation for expanding the activities that the word applies to?
It's really not overly difficult. Most of the "examples" you've brought up are pretty easy to figure out if they're rape or not.

The fact remains, and it's bothering to you for some reason, that women don't commonly rape men. It's just not something you hear of a lot. It's, generally, easier for women to get attention, should they want it. Men are more aggressive when it comes to sex, generally.

I don't get why this is so hard to understand.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 07:12 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
What other things are involved in whether something is rape than consent?
Rape is a legal term, so it depends on the jurisdiction. Scotland, for example, specifies what is being penetrated and what is doing the penetration.

I wasn't dickering about the legal definition of rape, though, I was talking about sexual morality more broadly.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 07:13 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If we don't go philosophical, what is there to talk about? She supposedly said he had to use a condom, he took it off, she immediately ran to report it. He's in the wrong. What more is to be said on the case?
You nailed it. There really isn't more to be said. That's what happened. In fact, that's some of the ******* finest nutshelling I've ever seen.

That's a wrap folks.

/thread

ETA: Did she say the hilited or was it the policy where she worked? I was under the impression it was part of the gig.
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Last edited by plague311; 2nd August 2022 at 07:20 AM.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 07:19 AM   #40
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Rape is a legal term, so it depends on the jurisdiction. Scotland, for example, specifies what is being penetrated and what is doing the penetration.

I wasn't dickering about the legal definition of rape, though, I was talking about sexual morality more broadly.
I'm not very interesting in the legal definitions except as the instantiations of underlying ideas.
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