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Old 2nd August 2022, 08:38 AM   #1
zooterkin
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Homosexuality still a sin, says Welby

Moving with the times, as ever, the Archbishop of Canterbury affirms that the position of the 1198, sorry 1998, declaration that gay sex is a sin, still holds.

This obviously has no direct bearing on pretty much all the members here, given that most are probably atheists, and few of the rest are Anglican, but it is still a disappointing statement to come out in 2022, since there are people in a position of influence who still take their guidance from the church.

Quote:
In a letter sent to more than 650 bishops attending the once-a-decade Lambeth Conference just two hours before a potentially rancorous discussion on sexuality, Welby said the 1998 resolution, known as Lambeth 1.10, was “not in doubt”.

Campaigners for LGBT+ equality within the church responded to Welby’s attempt to reconcile polarised views with anger. Jayne Ozanne said: “I feel deeply angry and frustrated that yet again priority has been given to saving a manmade institution over protecting LGBT+ people’s lives.

“Let us be clear that Lambeth 1.10 encourages ‘conversion therapy’ and negates the God given love between two individuals. It is a stick with which many of us have been beaten and will continue to suffer under around the world.”


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I AGREE
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Old 2nd August 2022, 08:40 AM   #2
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Full text of Lambeth 1.10.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 09:35 AM   #3
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* zooterkin points vainly at the topic of the thread, over there...
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Old 2nd August 2022, 09:42 AM   #4
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To be fair, nothing much has changed since old Henry. The whole religion can't be a sham, so instead we get to bluff everyone into thinking that Yahweh loves homosexuals a whole lot, just like Henry bluffed everyone about his wives.

I guess I shouldn't complain, since it's better than the alternative, but it's like pulling teeth.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 09:49 AM   #5
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But anyway.

What exactly is the Church supposed to do? You can't go "We were wrong and are changing our mind" when your entire schtick is "We're getting orders from a magical being that can't be wrong."

Sure eventually they'll get to some level of...

Church: "What? Being Gay is great. We always said that, show us when we ever said otherwise!"
Everybody: "Like... all the time. Like here is all the times you said otherwise."
Church: "See? Never said otherwise. We've always been on the side of the gays"

...and then just maintain that lie until reality itself warps around them just like they always do when they have to retcon some core belief that finally becomes so vile even they can't spin it anymore, but they'll never actually change it in real time. You can't do that with you're working on "faith" or the whole stupid thing collapses. You have a pick an point to sell the masses an "out" so they can pretend the Church never held such a hateful belief.

Or to make the obvious pun, they will annul their hatred of gays someday maybe, they will never divorce it.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 2nd August 2022 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 12:40 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

What exactly is the Church supposed to do? You can't go "We were wrong and are changing our mind" when your entire schtick is "We're getting orders from a magical being that can't be wrong."
If God can change his mind on women clergy he can give gay sex the thumbs up.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 12:43 PM   #7
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It is about time that the state severed formal links with an institution that fails to accept British values. I wouldn't ban it simply remove all privileges.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 04:23 PM   #8
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From what I understand, the Anglican Church is facing a major schism over the questions of acceptance of same-sex marriage and homosexuality. Many of the more conservative Anglican churches -- especially in Africa -- have threatened to split away if the Anglican Church accepts those things. I guess that's the driving force behind the announcement.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 04:28 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
From what I understand, the Anglican Church is facing a major schism over the questions of acceptance of same-sex marriage and homosexuality. Many of the more conservative Anglican churches -- especially in Africa -- have threatened to split away if the Anglican Church accepts those things. I guess that's the driving force behind the announcement.
They might as well not bother. The liberal Anglican church is dying.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 05:11 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Moving with the times, as ever...
I was about to point this out, but Don beat me to it:

Originally Posted by GDon View Post
From what I understand, the Anglican Church is facing a major schism over the questions of acceptance of same-sex marriage and homosexuality. Many of the more conservative Anglican churches -- especially in Africa -- have threatened to split away if the Anglican Church accepts those things. I guess that's the driving force behind the announcement.
100% correct. The poor old Anglican Church is dying and the only new members they're getting are in Africa.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 05:39 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
100% correct. The poor old Anglican Church is dying and the only new members they're getting are in Africa.
Last I checked they were booming due to sub-Saharan Africa. Shrinking in the UK of course.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 06:14 PM   #12
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So the question REALLY is: Which version of the rules for Anglican Dungeons-and-Dragons is going to be the most popular?
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Old 2nd August 2022, 06:33 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
So the question REALLY is: Which version of the rules for Anglican Dungeons-and-Dragons is going to be the most popular?
The African conservative one that doesn't like homosexuality. That seems pretty clear.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 06:37 PM   #14
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Everything is a sin. Technically we aren't even allowed to go to the bathroom.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 06:39 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
The African conservative one that doesn't like homosexuality. That seems pretty clear.
So the entirely irrelevant version. Got it.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 06:43 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
So the entirely irrelevant version. Got it.
Why irrelevant? The UK is only growing by immigration. Sooner or later if current trends continue, the decline in Anglicanism in the UK will reverse, only it will be conservative.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 07:00 PM   #17
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Clearly John Shelby Spong (Anglican Churches biggest nightmare) is not being listened to here.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 01:03 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Why irrelevant? The UK is only growing by immigration. Sooner or later if current trends continue, the decline in Anglicanism in the UK will reverse, only it will be conservative.
In western nations, not all children of the religious carry on with the idiocy. Indeed, kids of the more zealous are probably more likely to be turned off. After all, how would atheism grow out of a predominantly religious society? Immediate access to a cornucopia of information, and exposure to more cultures and religions, tend to inspire a more secular outlook.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 03:25 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Ah, yes! Never been any question there. Just ask future king and defender of the faith, Prince Charles.
Didn't Chucky once say he wanted to be "defender of faiths" rather than "defender of the faith" ?

I guess he wanted to pick one of the ones which allows polygamy...
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Old 3rd August 2022, 03:28 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Ah, yes! Never been any question there. Just ask future king and defender of the faith, Prince Charles.
Apart from the divorce he was just following his father's example.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 03:37 AM   #21
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I can find some sympathy in this case for those that find themselves in a conflict over what they want their religion to be and what it is. The obvious solution is to find a different religion but for many people their whole life is tied into the community of their religion and to walk away from that probably feels terrifying.

Anglicanism has always been English centric, English bishops and archbishops dictating to the far flung congregations, but that is no longer sustainable. I think we will see a schism and have the CofE and Anglicanism as separate congregations.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 04:32 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
The global share of people who are Christian or Muslim has been climbing steadily, while atheism is declining. Why would you expect the "death of every church"?
Er, no. In fact, the exact opposite is true!

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion...at-rapid-pace/
"The religious landscape of the United States continues to change at a rapid clip. In Pew Research Center telephone surveys conducted in 2018 and 2019, 65% of American adults describe themselves as Christians when asked about their religion, down 12 percentage points over the past decade. Meanwhile, the religiously unaffiliated share of the population, consisting of people who describe their religious identity as atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular,” now stands at 26%, up from 17% in 2009."

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/c...ising-religion
"Around the world, when asked about their feelings on religion, more and more people are responding with a "meh".
The religiously unaffiliated, called "nones," are growing significantly. They’re the second largest religious group in North America and most of Europe. In the United States, nones make up almost a quarter of the population. In the past decade, U.S. nones have overtaken Catholics, mainline protestants, and all followers of non-Christian faiths."

These trends are pretty much reflected around the world... theism is in decline, atheism is on the rise..
.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 05:35 AM   #23
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I'd say it's more a retreat from the traditional, structured religions, I know a lot of people who dont believe in their religion of birth but still think there is "something".

Personally I think.it is time the CofE got.out of the religion business, anyone can see the profits are in wedding venues!
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Old 3rd August 2022, 05:59 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'd say it's more a retreat from the traditional, structured religions, I know a lot of people who dont believe in their religion of birth but still think there is "something".
The existence of some divine being is more plausible than the notion that any of the organized religions are actually correct about the nature, characteristics, intentions, desires, and actions of such beings if any exist.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 06:20 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Why irrelevant? The UK is only growing by immigration. Sooner or later if current trends continue, the decline in Anglicanism in the UK will reverse, only it will be conservative.
It should be irrelevant, if the reason for adopting or changing an important principle is simply to keep one's numbers up.

What's being suggested here is that the C of E, which purportedly bases its principles, and its requirement of believers' behavior, on what it deems to be the holy truth, is actually doing it out of the fear that they will lose their majority clout.

The history of religion is one of schisms and sects, as people have new ideas that the old church cannot adapt to. The C of E itself is one. Not that I'm a subscriber to that, or any other religion. But I'd drop like a hot stone any religious organization that, faced with a demographic crisis, cannot say "So what? We'd rather be right."
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Old 3rd August 2022, 07:05 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'd say it's more a retreat from the traditional, structured religions, I know a lot of people who dont believe in their religion of birth but still think there is "something".

That reminds me of a newspaper comic strip I saw years ago. A little girl and her grandfather were having a conversation with another older woman.

Woman: I'm not "religious", but I'm very "spiritual".
Child: What does that mean?
Grandfather: It means she believes in things like ghosts and psychics.
Woman: That's a very cynical attitude. What's your astrological sign?
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Old 3rd August 2022, 07:25 AM   #27
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Jesus ALSO said that a life without sex is a more holy life.

So, yeah, whatever.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 07:27 AM   #28
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Again everything religion said is contradicted by something else the same religion said.

That's why nothing religion says matters.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 07:32 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again everything religion said is contradicted by something else the same religion said.

That's why nothing religion says matters.
That's a mystery of faith and it'll all be explained satisfactorily in the next world. Or the one after that.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 07:32 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again everything religion said is contradicted by something else the same religion said.

That's why nothing religion says matters.
A consistent and contradiction free belief system wouldn't be suitable for humans.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 07:40 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
A consistent and contradiction free belief system wouldn't be suitable for humans.
"You need a belief system if you want to do thinks that don't make sense."

Man people just love saying the quiet part out loud these days.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 07:44 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"You need a belief system if you want to do thinks that don't make sense."

Man people just love saying the quiet part out loud these days.
:-) We all have a belief system. This is like a fish being unaware of water, or looking through a window and not perceiving the glass.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 07:58 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
:-) We all have a belief system. This is like a fish being unaware of water, or looking through a window and not perceiving the glass.
"Everybody is as wrong as I am" is very important to some people.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 07:47 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Jesus ALSO said that a life without sex is a more holy life.

So, yeah, whatever.
No, Jesus never said that. Paul did. 1 Cor 7-8.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 07:55 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, Jesus never said that. Paul did. 1 Cor 7-8.
I tried Googling >Jesus sex< to see if he had had anything to say on the topic and the answer appears to be "No".

However, I did find,

Was Jesus gay? Probably

It's by Paul Oestreicher. "Paul Oestreicher is an Anglican priest, and peace and human rights activist".

Not excommunicated yet?
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Old 4th August 2022, 06:49 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
I tried Googling >Jesus sex< to see if he had had anything to say on the topic and the answer appears to be "No".

However, I did find,

Was Jesus gay? Probably

It's by Paul Oestreicher. "Paul Oestreicher is an Anglican priest, and peace and human rights activist".

Not excommunicated yet?
I don't know. There are some that think maybe he had a little somethin' going on with Mary Magdalene. Maybe he was bi.
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Old 4th August 2022, 09:16 AM   #37
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Sandi Toksvig (a National Treasure in the UK) is not impressed.

Quote:
In a letter to more than 650 bishops attending the once-a-decade Lambeth conference on Tuesday, Justin Welby, who is also leader of the Anglican church, said the resolution, known as Lambeth 1.10, was “not in doubt”.

“It was a sin in 1998 and you just wanted to make clear in 2022 that no one in your finely frocked gang has moved on from that,” wrote Toksvig in her letter published on Twitter on Wednesday evening. “Seriously, with the state the world is in, that is what you wanted to focus on?”

Responding to the latest knot the Church of England has tied itself into, Toksvig laid bare the facts, including that suicide is contemplated by young LGBTQ+ people at higher rates than their non-LGBTQ+ peers. She said she had faced death threats herself, and questioned the Church of England’s interpretation of Jesus’s views on homosexuality.
...
On Saturday, Toksvig said she planned to visit her local church with her wife of 16 years. While she had been “too hurt over the years to have any faith left”, she would be hosting a concert to raise money for Ukrainian refugees, but afterwards would never set foot inside an Anglican building again, she wrote.

Full text of the letter on Twitter.
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Old 4th August 2022, 10:01 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
I tried Googling >Jesus sex< to see if he had had anything to say on the topic and the answer appears to be "No".

However, I did find,

Was Jesus gay? Probably

It's by Paul Oestreicher. "Paul Oestreicher is an Anglican priest, and peace and human rights activist".

Not excommunicated yet?
As far as I'm aware, the Anglicans don't really go in for excommunication much, though apparently until 1963 you could be sent to prison if it did happen to you.
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Old 4th August 2022, 10:20 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
As far as I'm aware, the Anglicans don't really go in for excommunication much, though apparently until 1963 you could be sent to prison if it did happen to you.
I was baptized into the Church of England but never confirmed. Don't expect me to be an expert on Church Law.

(And, anyway, I was just "asking a question".)
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Old 4th August 2022, 10:35 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
I was baptized into the Church of England but never confirmed. Don't expect me to be an expert on Church Law.

(And, anyway, I was just "asking a question".)
Well, I was never a member at all, though I went to a few services as a Scout, and went to a C of E school, so not particularly an expert either!
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