IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
View Poll Results: The raid was...
Absolutely a good thing - no question 134 77.46%
An outrage, a travesty - what about Magna Carta? Did she die in vain? 4 2.31%
I'll wait before I make a judgement thank you. 29 16.76%
Mar-X-Lago! 6 3.47%
Voters: 173. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
Old 8th August 2022, 09:01 PM   #1
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 35,981
FBI Raid Trump's house at Mar-a-Lago

Quote:
The FBI searched Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate as part of an investigation into whether he took classified records from the White House to his Florida residence, people familiar with the matter said Monday, a move that represents a dramatic and unprecedented escalation of law enforcement scrutiny of the former president.

Trump, disclosing the search in a lengthy statement, asserted that agents had opened up a safe at his home and described their work as an “unannounced raid” that he likened to “prosecutorial misconduct.”

The search intensifies the months-long probe into how classified documents ended up in more than a dozen boxes located at Mar-a-Lago earlier this year. It occurs amid a separate grand jury investigation into efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election and adds to the potential legal peril for Trump as he lays the groundwork for another run.
Link

I have mixed feelings about the news of the FBI raiding Trump's lair. I mean, the guy is a ******* of course, but it does not really have a "good look" vibe about it if it appears to be politically motivated. I think most people would have had a bad reaction if Trump's DOJ had sent the FBI to raid Hillary Clinton's house. But this thread from Ken White argues that the bar for getting this warrant is presumably high and he believes it will have passed the necessary oversight.


https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1556777965937037312

So what do you think? Give me your hot takes!

Is this a low-down dirty tricks maneuvre by the radical woke agenda or something?

Is this perfectly above board?

Is it way past time that this happened?

Or, are you one of those feeble-minded people who want to wait for the "dust to settle" and for "evidence" and "reason" before coming to a judgment?

Let's have a heated debate!
__________________
Слава Україні! **** Putin!
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 09:08 PM   #2
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 22,557
This is not complicated: Trump stole Top Secret documents when he left the White House, the National Archives demand them back.
Since he didn't give them back willingly, the FBI had to go and get them.
I just hope Trump will have to pay for the costs of the Raid, as well as face criminal charges for taking the documents (almost certainly obstruction of justice).

What I find most hopeful is that his Secret Service Detail seems to not have given him the heads-up on the upcoming Raid, suggesting that the Service is not a complete Trump Fanclub yet.
__________________
“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”

Last edited by The Great Zaganza; 8th August 2022 at 09:09 PM.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 09:38 PM   #3
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 25,304
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Link

I have mixed feelings about the news of the FBI raiding Trump's lair. I mean, the guy is a ******* of course, but it does not really have a "good look" vibe about it if it appears to be politically motivated. I think most people would have had a bad reaction if Trump's DOJ had sent the FBI to raid Hillary Clinton's house. But this thread from Ken White argues that the bar for getting this warrant is presumably high and he believes it will have passed the necessary oversight.


https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1556777965937037312

So what do you think? Give me your hot takes!

Is this a low-down dirty tricks maneuvre by the radical woke agenda or something?

Is this perfectly above board?

Is it way past time that this happened?

Or, are you one of those feeble-minded people who want to wait for the "dust to settle" and for "evidence" and "reason" before coming to a judgment?

Let's have a heated debate!
Is this a low-down dirty tricks maneuvre by the radical woke agenda or something? No

Is this perfectly above board?
Yes

Is it way past time that this happened? Yes

Or, are you one of those feeble-minded people who want to wait for the "dust to settle" and for "evidence" and "reason" before coming to a judgment? No



...but it does not really have a "good look" vibe about it if it appears to be politically motivated. I think most people would have had a bad reaction if Trump's DOJ had sent the FBI to raid Hillary Clinton's house.
Who else is going to serve a search warrant on a twice-impeached criminal ex-president who tried to lead an armed insurrection on the Capitol to prevent the peaceful transfer of power?

Noteworthy: Around this time last year, and a little before, there were a number of Fat Orange Turd apologists posting here, who insisted that the January 6 attack could not have been an insurrection because the rioters were not armed with firearms. We now know, thanks to the Jan 6 Committee investigation, that in fact, not only that the mob were armed with firearms, but that The Fat Orange Turd KNEW they were armed, and tried to have the metal detectors turned off so that even more armed members could get in. Those Fat Orange Turd apologists have gone very quiet all of a sudden... I wonder why that is?
.
.
__________________
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 09:46 PM   #4
marting
Illuminator
 
marting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,982
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Link

I have mixed feelings about the news of the FBI raiding Trump's lair. I mean, the guy is a ******* of course, but it does not really have a "good look" vibe about it if it appears to be politically motivated. I think most people would have had a bad reaction if Trump's DOJ had sent the FBI to raid Hillary Clinton's house. But this thread from Ken White argues that the bar for getting this warrant is presumably high and he believes it will have passed the necessary oversight.


https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1556777965937037312

So what do you think? Give me your hot takes!

Is this a low-down dirty tricks maneuvre by the radical woke agenda or something?

Is this perfectly above board?

Is it way past time that this happened?

Or, are you one of those feeble-minded people who want to wait for the "dust to settle" and for "evidence" and "reason" before coming to a judgment?

Let's have a heated debate!
I agree with Ken White. And he has the background being a former Fed. prosecutor. This is being spun as politically motivated by the usual suspects and that was certainly expected by the DOJ and judge that signed off on the warrant app. This is way more than just classified docs that DJT took back on Jan 20, 2021. Way more. But it is likely to include "other" material from Jan 2021 that is of more interest.
__________________
Flying's easy. Walking on water, now that's cool.

Last edited by marting; 8th August 2022 at 09:47 PM.
marting is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 09:47 PM   #5
Foster Zygote
Dental Floss Tycoon
 
Foster Zygote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 21,371
"It's so unfair to have an unannounced raid! They should have had the decency to give me enough time to attempt to flush the documents and all my coke down the toilet before they got here. WITCH HUNT!!!"
__________________
Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.
Foster Zygote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 09:56 PM   #6
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
This is not complicated: Trump stole Top Secret documents when he left the White House, the National Archives demand them back.
Since he didn't give them back willingly, the FBI had to go and get them.
I just hope Trump will have to pay for the costs of the Raid, as well as face criminal charges for taking the documents (almost certainly obstruction of justice).

What I find most hopeful is that his Secret Service Detail seems to not have given him the heads-up on the upcoming Raid, suggesting that the Service is not a complete Trump Fanclub yet.
If they don't find anything, will you still be confident of this?
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 10:15 PM   #7
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 35,981
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
This is not complicated: Trump stole Top Secret documents when he left the White House, the National Archives demand them back.
Since he didn't give them back willingly, the FBI had to go and get them.
I just hope Trump will have to pay for the costs of the Raid, as well as face criminal charges for taking the documents (almost certainly obstruction of justice).

What I find most hopeful is that his Secret Service Detail seems to not have given him the heads-up on the upcoming Raid, suggesting that the Service is not a complete Trump Fanclub yet.
Well, as Popehat says...

Quote:
The New York Times is reporting that the search is targeted at Trump's removal of documents from the White House. Again, as I noted above, the warrant form should confirm that.

As
@jbarro
and I were just discussing, it's rather surprising to me that the misappropriated documents (even if classified) would get DoJ to execute a warrant. Not what I'd expect them to find adequate to do something this big. So I suspect there's more.

The other thing about searching for misappropriated documents is the lapse of time from 1/20/21 until now. One thing federal magistrates tend to scrutinize is "what's the evidence that these items are at the location NOW." So they'd have to have some fresh intel.
Popehat is saying that just the documents seems to be not a great reason to do it, and it seems odd that they would just go in expecting to find them there, unless, as mentioned there is "fresh intel".

He says that it really depends on what is in the warrant. If Trump ends up showing the warrant and saying what they were looking for then maybe we will know.

Do we know what is in the warrant?

Do we have strong evidence for knowing what was in the warrant?

Meanwhile, of course, the right-wing loonies are freaking out and melting down. Kind of amusing to see, BUT also some of the stuff they are saying looks to me like THEY should be getting a visit from the FBI....
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Steven Crowder war.jpg (31.4 KB, 14 views)
__________________
Слава Україні! **** Putin!
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 10:18 PM   #8
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 22,557
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If they don't find anything, will you still be confident of this?
nope.
I think the SS is a fundamentally corrupt agency with an extreme right-wing bias.
But it seems that self-preservation might be more important to them than loyalty to Trump.
__________________
“Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 10:19 PM   #9
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 25,304
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Well, as Popehat says...



Popehat is saying that just the documents seems to be not a great reason to do it, and it seems odd that they would just go in expecting to find them there, unless, as mentioned there is "fresh intel".

He says that it really depends on what is in the warrant. If Trump ends up showing the warrant and saying what they were looking for then maybe we will know.

Do we know what is in the warrant?

Do we have strong evidence for knowing what was in the warrant?

Meanwhile, of course, the right-wing loonies are freaking out and melting down. Kind of amusing to see, BUT also some of the stuff they are saying looks to me like THEY should be getting a visit from the FBI....

100+ FBI agents and several armored vehicles seems to be a bit OTT if its just a few documents.
__________________
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 10:26 PM   #10
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 35,981
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
100+ FBI agents and several armored vehicles seems to be a bit OTT if its just a few documents.
Indeed. But then this would appear to be incorrect, no?

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
This is not complicated: Trump stole Top Secret documents when he left the White House, the National Archives demand them back.
If it just for some documents, then is it heavy-handed?

And if it is not for the documents, then what is it for?

This is why I am in "wait and see" mode rather than confidently asserting that I know why this was done and it was justified.

I think that is over-confidence.

But of course, anyone over-confidently asserting it is an abuse of federal power also clearly either has no idea if they are correct, or they are full-on Trump apologists who would literally support Trump shooting a guy on Main Street. True Homelander fans.
__________________
Слава Україні! **** Putin!
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 11:15 PM   #11
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 25,304
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Indeed. But then this would appear to be incorrect, no?



If it just for some documents, then is it heavy-handed?

And if it is not for the documents, then what is it for?

This is why I am in "wait and see" mode rather than confidently asserting that I know why this was done and it was justified.

I think that is over-confidence.

But of course, anyone over-confidently asserting it is an abuse of federal power also clearly either has no idea if they are correct, or they are full-on Trump apologists who would literally support Trump shooting a guy on Main Street. True Homelander fans.
Its fun to speculate

Other than the obvious (more illegally retained documents), there could be any other number of things that led to this.

Maybe someone working in Mar-A-Lardo has seen something and reported it to the DOJ/FBI?

Has the J6 Select Committee had testimony or seen documents that relate to J6 or some other criminality, and reported this to the DoJ? Remember, the J6 is sharing much, if not most, of what they have with DoJ.

The Fat Orange Turd is up to his neck in criminality, and it seems like an enormous operation just to retrieve some stolen documents, so while I am adopting a wait and see position, I do suspect there is something else going on here, maybe as well as the obvious.
__________________
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 11:21 PM   #12
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Dharug & Gundungurra
Posts: 16,809
Jeffrey Epstein's little black book?
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 11:22 PM   #13
Irony
Muse
 
Irony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 932
It was a beautiful raid. A tremendous raid. The best raid anyone has ever done.
I was just talking to a guy and he said "Sir, that was the most bigly raid ever."
Truly spectacular.
Irony is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 11:25 PM   #14
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 35,981
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its fun to speculate

Other than the obvious (more illegally retained documents), there could be any other number of things that led to this.

Maybe someone working in Mar-A-Lardo has seen something and reported it to the DOJ/FBI?

Has the J6 Select Committee had testimony or seen documents that relate to J6 or some other criminality, and reported this to the DoJ? Remember, the J6 is sharing much, if not most, of what they have with DoJ.

The Fat Orange Turd is up to his neck in criminality, and it seems like an enormous operation just to retrieve some stolen documents, so while I am adopting a wait and see position, I do suspect there is something else going on here, maybe as well as the obvious.
I would love it if it had all come from the Alex Jones phone records!

I know, I know...

Meanwhile, some right-wingers are pointing out that the Clintons took furniture from the White House and haven't seen the FBI raid them to get that back yet!

I mean, that's a good point, right?
__________________
Слава Україні! **** Putin!
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 11:26 PM   #15
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 35,981
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Jeffrey Epstein's little black book?
Oooh! Delicious irony if true.
__________________
Слава Україні! **** Putin!
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 11:33 PM   #16
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Segnosaur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 20,625
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Jeffrey Epstein's little black book?
How about the actual pee tape?
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 11:34 PM   #17
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Dharug & Gundungurra
Posts: 16,809
Trump's statement. I do not believe Donny had anything to do with this directly. Far more likely it was a transcript of some rambling comments, subsequently edited and enhanced by one of his untergruppenfuhrers.

Originally Posted by DirtBag
These are dark times for our Nation, as my beautiful home, Mar-A-Lago in Palm Beach, Florida, is currently under siege, raided, and occupied by a large group of FBI agents. Nothing like this has ever happened to a President of the United States before. After working and cooperating with the relevant Government agencies, this unannounced raid on my home was not necessary or appropriate. It is prosecutorial misconduct, the weaponization of the Justice System, and an attack by Radical Left Democrats who desperately don’t want me to run for President in 2024, especially based on recent polls, and who will likewise do anything to stop Republicans and Conservatives in the upcoming Midterm Elections. Such an assault could only take place in broken, Third-World Countries. Sadly, America has now become one of those Countries, corrupt at a level not seen before. They even broke into my safe! What is the difference between this and Watergate, where operatives broke into the Democrat National Committee? Here, in reverse, Democrats broke into the home of the 45th President of the United States.

The political persecution of President Donald J. Trump has been going on for years, with the now fully debunked Russia, Russia, Russia Scam, Impeachment Hoax #1, Impeachment Hoax #2, and so much more, it just never ends. It is political targeting at the highest level!

Hillary Clinton was allowed to delete and acid wash 33,000 E-mails AFTER they were subpoenaed by Congress. Absolutely nothing has happened to hold her accountable. She even took antique furniture, and other items from the White House.

I stood up to America’s bureaucratic corruption, I restored power to the people, and truly delivered for our Country, like we have never seen before. The establishment hated it. Now, as they watch my endorsed candidates win big victories, and see my dominance in all polls, they are trying to stop me, and the Republican Party, once more. The lawlessness, political persecution, and Witch Hunt must be exposed and stopped.

I will continue to fight for the Great American People!
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 12:48 AM   #18
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Trump's statement. I do not believe Donny had anything to do with this directly. Far more likely it was a transcript of some rambling comments, subsequently edited and enhanced by one of his untergruppenfuhrers.
Poor Donnie.

Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 12:54 AM   #19
Lennart Hyland
Muse
 
Lennart Hyland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 782
And of course all the republicans are whining on twitter. Turd Cruz tweeted that the White House have weaponized the DOJ/FBI to target political enemies...
__________________
L.H 1919 - 1993 R.I.P

Unfortunately the 911truth movement web site does not allow any opinions contrary to their own, or I would have presented my views. David Scott - CTBUH Chairman
Lennart Hyland is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 01:11 AM   #20
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
Originally Posted by Lennart Hyland View Post
And of course all the republicans are whining on twitter. Turd Cruz tweeted that the White House have weaponized the DOJ/FBI to target political enemies...
Trump supporters have to be the most self-unaware people there are.

James Comey, Andrew McCabe, Adam Schiff, Eric Swalwell et al might like to have a word with Cruz.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 01:16 AM   #21
KDLarsen
Philosopher
 
KDLarsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,083
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump supporters have to be the most self-unaware people there are.

James Comey, Andrew McCabe, Adam Schiff, Eric Swalwell et al might like to have a word with Cruz.
Nah, they just know their crowd. The FBI director was put in place by trump himself, but they're still whining about him being a part of the Democratic persecution.
KDLarsen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 04:08 AM   #22
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 14,588
Does anyone else recall all of the bitching and complaining that the POS Trump did concerning the private e-mail server that Hillary Clinton used while she was Secretary of State?

He was endlessly chanting "Lock her Up! Lock her Up!".

Also, since that POS Trump always likes to say that he is on the side of "Law and Order", then this legal search should be no problem for him, assuming that he actually does support "Law and Order".
__________________
A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 04:09 AM   #23
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 34,263
The satisfyingly ironic part is that this is the same type of (alleged) offence that prompted the “Lock her up!” chants and and hours of public congressional investigations into Clinton’s email server.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 04:26 AM   #24
BobTheCoward
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
Hot take? you got it

It is almost certainly true that other presidents violated this statute. But only Trump gets targeted because he did it egregiously and publicly?

It is an injustice that punishment is unevenly applied to those who produce evidence of a crime. justice is supposed to be blind.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 05:15 AM   #25
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,982
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Hot take? you got it

It is almost certainly true that other presidents violated this statute. But only Trump gets targeted because he did it egregiously and publicly?

It is an injustice that punishment is unevenly applied to those who produce evidence of a crime. justice is supposed to be blind.
Your claim - like to support it?
__________________
If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 05:20 AM   #26
gerdbonk
Penultimate Amazing
 
gerdbonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Seńora la Reina de los Ángeles de Porciúncula
Posts: 25,737
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is almost certainly true that other presidents violated this statute.
What you talkin' 'bout, Willis?
__________________
Current cheese: 2023 World Champion Cheese Nidelven Blĺ by Gangstad Gĺrdsysteri
gerdbonk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 05:26 AM   #27
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 14,588
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Hot take? you got it

It is almost certainly true that other presidents violated this statute. But only Trump gets targeted because he did it egregiously and publicly?

It is an injustice that punishment is unevenly applied to those who produce evidence of a crime. justice is supposed to be blind.
Once again, you do not know what you are talking about.
__________________
A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 05:34 AM   #28
BobTheCoward
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Your claim - like to support it?
The likelihood that every single record in a 4 year span was properly handled, when an incredible amount of records are generated, is unlikely. Mistakes happen

ETA: your question is like asking for evidence that everyone speeds. The issue is the structure of speeding laws make it a certainty.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 9th August 2022 at 05:38 AM.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 05:35 AM   #29
BobTheCoward
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Once again, you do not know what you are talking about.
Person asked for hot takes. I don't see you coming up with hot takes on short notice.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 05:49 AM   #30
W.D.Clinger
Philosopher
 
W.D.Clinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,759
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
If it just for some documents, then is it heavy-handed?
It's not just some documents. Trump is alleged to have taken documents that, by law, belong to the National Archives, including classified documents whose removal and retention is punishable by up to five years in prison.

Quote:
18 U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material

(a) Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

People have been sentenced to substantial prison time for stealing unclassified documents from the National Archives:
  • Robert Bradford Murphy and Elizabeth Irene Murphy were both sentenced to ten years in federal prison.
  • Charles Merrill Mount was sentenced to five years.
  • Shawn Aubitz paid a $73,000 fine and served 21 months in prison.
  • Sandy Berger (who had been a National Security Advisor in the Clinton administration) paid a $50,000 fine and was sentenced to 100 hours of community service.
  • Howard Harner paid a $10,000 and was sentenced to two years in prison.
  • Denning McTague paid a $3000 fine and was sentenced to 15 months in prison.
  • Les Waffen was sentenced to 18 months.
  • Barry Landau was sentenced to 7 years in federal prison. His co-conspirator Jason Savedoff served one year and a day.
  • Antonin DeHays was sentenced to 364 days in prison and ordered to pay a $43,456.96 fine for stealing WWII memorabilia from the National Archives.
"Butter emails!":
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Originally Posted by DirtBag
Hillary Clinton was allowed to delete and acid wash 33,000 E-mails AFTER they were subpoenaed by Congress. Absolutely nothing has happened to hold her accountable. She even took antique furniture, and other items from the White House.

Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Does anyone else recall all of the bitching and complaining that the POS Trump did concerning the private e-mail server that Hillary Clinton used while she was Secretary of State?

He was endlessly chanting "Lock her Up! Lock her Up!".
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
The satisfyingly ironic part is that this is the same type of (alleged) offence that prompted the “Lock her up!” chants and and hours of public congressional investigations into Clinton’s email server.

Donald Trump's alleged thefts of archives and classified documents are far more serious than anything Hillary Clinton was ever accused of doing.
Unless of course you regard QAnon and MAGA allegations surrounding PizzaGate and such as serious allegations, in which case you have already removed yourself from the vicinity of sober discourse.
W.D.Clinger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 05:56 AM   #31
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Dharug & Gundungurra
Posts: 16,809
OK, so let's accept for argument's sake for just a moment that the Democrats HAVE "weaponised" the FBI for political gain and to attack Donny. Given their parlous polls situation, wouldn't it be logical to expect they will start using any and all the evidence they pilfered from Mar-a-Lardo IMMEDIATELY to denigrate Trumpy and launch a scathing attack on him and all his associates? It would be a goldmine of grifty goodness, surely, that they could use. Because that's exactly what Trumpy says he fears in his Trothe Sential post.

So it's been nearly 24 hours now... Anyone got any reports of a Democrat landslide release of juicy Trumpy tid-bits? Photos of Trumpy eating official records in a taco? Even just one salacious tale of peeing on beds?

...anything?
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 05:58 AM   #32
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 9,800
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump supporters have to be the most self-unaware people there are.
No they aren't. He knows damn well what he's saying. He just doesn't care. Stop attributing to incompetence what is clearly malice.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 05:59 AM   #33
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 14,588
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Person asked for hot takes. I don't see you coming up with hot takes on short notice.
If you happen to have a moment of lucidity in the near future, then kindly explain this posting of yours because I cannot make any sense of it.
__________________
A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 05:59 AM   #34
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29,690
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think most people would have had a bad reaction if Trump's DOJ had sent the FBI to raid Hillary Clinton's house.

My hot take on this is that, since they never did raid Clinton's house, this pretty much proves that the FBI doesn't carry out politically-motivated raids. Because I'd bet good money that there was at least one moment where Trump demanded such a raid, and the FBI refused to do it without some actual evidence to support the need for a raid.

Considering how many times Trump actually did use his power to take revenge on those he imagined had wronged him, it's a safe bet he at least tried to do the same to Hillary.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 06:01 AM   #35
BobTheCoward
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
If you happen to have a moment of lucidity in the near future, then kindly explain this posting of yours because I cannot make any sense of it.
Do you know what a hot take is? Because the OP asked for them
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 06:07 AM   #36
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
shemp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Where the Old Man of the Mountain used to stand
Posts: 58,585
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Hot take? you got it

It is almost certainly true that other presidents violated this statute. But only Trump gets targeted because he did it egregiously and publicly?

It is an injustice that punishment is unevenly applied to those who produce evidence of a crime.
justice is supposed to be blind.
All lies and nonsense struck out. And justice is blind, just like you are to reality. And before your inevitable attempt to drag me down the rabbit hole with you: You made the claim, prove it.
__________________
Being the victim of genocidal atrocities does not give you free reign to commit your own genocidal atrocities.

When Republican politicians were young, they were the kids who watched James Bond movies and said "I want to grow up to be just like [insert name of villain here]."

Last edited by shemp; 9th August 2022 at 06:08 AM.
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 06:07 AM   #37
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think most people would have had a bad reaction if Trump's DOJ had sent the FBI to raid Hillary Clinton's house.
Because Hillary didn't actually do anything wrong. Trump did. This is not complicated. Do not pretend it is to manufacture a moral outage debate that isn't there.

If the Right and their apologists could pull themselves out of "I don't understand why being wrong/evil/lawbreaking is treated differently then being correct/not evil/law abiding. I mean is suuuuuuuuuuuch a double standard." that would be just super-duper.
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 06:09 AM   #38
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
All lies and nonsense struck out. And before your inevitable attempt to drag me down the rabbit hole with you: You made the claim, prove it.
And "But I because of my internet persona's fetishistic adherence to pure versions of random philosophies I pull out of a hat, I'm not making a claim and therefore don't have burden of proof." routine... action.
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 06:11 AM   #39
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29,690
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Trump's statement. I do not believe Donny had anything to do with this directly. Far more likely it was a transcript of some rambling comments, subsequently edited and enhanced by one of his untergruppenfuhrers.


"These are dark times for our Nation".

Well, at least the first seven words were reasonably accurate.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2022, 06:11 AM   #40
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
shemp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Where the Old Man of the Mountain used to stand
Posts: 58,585
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because Hillary didn't actually do anything wrong. Trump did. This is not complicated. Do not pretend it is to manufacture a moral outage debate that isn't there.

If the Right and their apologists could pull themselves out of "I don't understand why being wrong/evil/lawbreaking is treated differently then being correct/not evil/law abiding. I mean is suuuuuuuuuuuch a double standard." that would be just super-duper.
Precisely. And the standard Republican position is that Democrats are subject to the rule of law, Republicans are not.
__________________
Being the victim of genocidal atrocities does not give you free reign to commit your own genocidal atrocities.

When Republican politicians were young, they were the kids who watched James Bond movies and said "I want to grow up to be just like [insert name of villain here]."
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:08 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.