IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » Reference » Forum Spotlight
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags trial , evolution , intelligent design , dover id trial

Reply
Old 4th November 2005, 07:55 AM   #401
Betenoire
Student
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 48
I had noticed the attorney for the school board essentially saying "ID is a religion" in a Salon.com article a week or two ago and thought "Wow, wouldn't it be nice if Rothschild went all Darrow-Bryan on him?" (I actually e-mailed Rothschild with this idea, but I don't believe for an instant he read it, or that I gave him some great insight).
When he had Bonsell up there, though, he did say, "You know, in an interview with Salon, your attorney said..." That made me so happy.

I wonder if their closing arguments will be available online.
Betenoire is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th November 2005, 08:10 AM   #402
Matilda
Thinker
 
Matilda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 188
Thanks Petre. I'm just not good with suspense. I start twitching after a while.
Matilda is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th November 2005, 08:35 AM   #403
BillHoyt
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,758
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
It appears that Dover school board member Alan Bonsell got into a little trouble with the judge yesterday: http://ydr.com/story/doverbiology/92434/

And here's Mike Argento's take on Bonsell's testimony.

Another transcript to look forward to.
Thank you so much for that, Mojo. I haven't had the time to keep tabs on this trial, and I truly appreciate your brightening my day with that link.
BillHoyt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th November 2005, 10:47 AM   #404
Dr Adequate
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,766
Scene: outside the gates of Troy.

Enter a bunch of Greeks making whinnying noises.


TROJANS: What do you want, you bunch of Greeks?
GREEKS: We're not Greeks.
TROJANS: But you look like Greeks.
GREEKS: We are, in fact, a horse.
TROJANS: A what?
GREEKS: A horse. A wooden horse. With wheels. Why don't you open the gates and drag us into the city?
TROJANS: You don't look like a wooden horse.
GREEKS: No? What do we look like?
TROJANS: You look like a bunch of Greeks who've crossed out the big letter G on their shields and painted in an H.
GREEKS: Oh... right...
TROJANS: I see that some of you are carrying a banner saying "We Are A Large Wooden Horse".
GREEKS: Yes. It didn't convince you?
TROJANS: It lacked authenticity, put it that way.
GREEKS: We worked on it all night.
TROJANS: I'm sure you did. Nonetheless... the end of the Illiad's going to be a big let-down, isn't it?
GREEKS: We're sorry.
Dr Adequate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th November 2005, 11:09 AM   #405
delphi_ote
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,994
Originally Posted by Dr Adequate View Post
Scene: outside the gates of Troy.

Enter a bunch of Greeks making whinnying noises.


TROJANS: What do you want, you bunch of Greeks?
GREEKS: We're not Greeks.
TROJANS: But you look like Greeks.
GREEKS: We are, in fact, a horse.
TROJANS: A what?
GREEKS: A horse. A wooden horse. With wheels. Why don't you open the gates and drag us into the city?
TROJANS: You don't look like a wooden horse.
GREEKS: No? What do we look like?
TROJANS: You look like a bunch of Greeks who've crossed out the big letter G on their shields and painted in an H.
GREEKS: Oh... right...
TROJANS: I see that some of you are carrying a banner saying "We Are A Large Wooden Horse".
GREEKS: Yes. It didn't convince you?
TROJANS: It lacked authenticity, put it that way.
GREEKS: We worked on it all night.
TROJANS: I'm sure you did. Nonetheless... the end of the Illiad's going to be a big let-down, isn't it?
GREEKS: We're sorry.
Brilliant!

You just need to add the occational Greek in the background yelling "We're Greeks! We're Greeks!" while the lead Greek tries to keep them quiet.
delphi_ote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th November 2005, 09:49 PM   #406
Spidey13
Pastor of Muppets
 
Spidey13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,457
I don't know if this has been linked here yet. Fairly funny.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/41260
__________________
"I love you like a fat kid love cake." - 50 Cent
Spidey13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2005, 07:13 AM   #407
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Nap, interrupted.
 
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 19,131
"Monkey called as witness fails to identify anyone in courtroom as his descendant."

I hope they brought in a talking monkey, otherwise, well, no wonder.

~~ Paul
__________________
Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz

RIP Mr. Skinny, Tim
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2005, 01:57 PM   #408
thatguywhojuggles
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,335
In the news...

From here:
http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-...,6531970.story

Quote:
Following closing arguments, Jones thanked both sides, telling the lawyers, ''Every single one of you made me aware of why I became a lawyer and why I became a judge. … Your advocacy was so impressive to me.''

He urged the lawyers to submit final documents within the next 21 days, saying he'd like to reach a verdict by year's end.

Gillen noted that Friday marked the 40th day since the trial began and asked Jones whether 40 days and 40 nights was his intent.

''That was an interesting coincidence,'' Jones retorted, then paused. ''But it was not by design.

The courtroom erupted into laughter and applause and Jones stood up and left.
I wonder how many IDiots started clapping and cheering just from hearing the word "Design" only to, half-way through the clapping and cheering, finally understand the meaning behind that comment.
thatguywhojuggles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2005, 02:11 PM   #409
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 27,427
What! No decision until the end of the year! What happened to the decision after the commercial break? At least he will give a decision within a month and a half. I assume 'before the end of the year' means 'before Christmas?'
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2005, 08:37 PM   #410
Mercutio
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,279
Does anyone know if Vegas has official odds on the outcome?
Mercutio is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2005, 02:49 AM   #411
Pidge
Thinker
 
Pidge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 223
Talking I'm sure you've heard these before, but

Halon's Razor (reference wikipedia)
Quote:
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
and Vernon Schryver's play on Clarke's Third Law and Hanlon's Razor (reference wikipedia)
Quote:
Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice
I can see these applying to a number of defence witnesses...
__________________
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll pull you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Unknown
Pidge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2005, 02:21 AM   #412
Diamond
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,729
Not having discovered Mike Argento until recently, it's been a hilarious pleasure reading his commentaries on the trial.

Barring a miracle, the greatest result would be a finding of fact that "Intelligent Design" is a religious belief and not a scientific theory. It would be incredible, given the lamentable testimony given by the defendants, that the judge would find against the plaintiffs. If Michael Behe is the best the defendants could come up with, then the FSM help them.
Diamond is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2005, 04:18 AM   #413
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 36,393
Here's another Argento column. It seems from this one that the defense lawyers were getting on the judge's nerves somewhat:
Quote:
Steve Harvey, one of the lawyers for the plaintiffs, objected on the grounds of hearsay.

Muise began to respond, mentioning the "public record," and the judge cut him off, asking, "Do you mean newspaper articles?" Muise and his cohorts have a standing objection to the admission of newspaper articles into the record, a dispute that will be settled today, and the judge said if Muise was going to rely on newspaper articles, it seemed to be a change in strategy, to say the least.

Muise started to say something and the judge cut him off, delivering a verbal slap upside the head: "Don't insult my intelligence."
There's also another transcript on the ACLUPA site which I hadn't noticed before (Day 18 AM: William Buckingham) and Talk Origins now has the day 18 PM session, with Alan Bonsell's cross-examination and the judge quizzing him about his possible perjury.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2005, 05:29 AM   #414
Ed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,658
While I would like a finding today at the latest, I appreciate what the judge is doing. He knows that his finding is going to be cited and re-cited and he wants to get his ducks in a row bigtime.

Remember that interchange (from memory) about yet another phrase for ID/creationism and a lawyer saying "are we going to be having the same case except about xxx?" and the judge said "not in my courtroom".

He knows the finding right this second, his words will be far more important than the judgement itself.
Ed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2005, 06:04 AM   #415
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 36,393
Nice to see the creationists fighting among themselves:
Quote:
The lead attorney defending the Dover district, Richard Thompson of the Thomas More Law Center, has made several statements inaccurately characterizing both the position and the actions of Discovery Institute regarding the Dover case. We are issuing the following statement in order to correct the record...
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2005, 08:05 AM   #416
Betenoire
Student
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 48
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
While I would like a finding today at the latest, I appreciate what the judge is doing. He knows that his finding is going to be cited and re-cited and he wants to get his ducks in a row bigtime.

Remember that interchange (from memory) about yet another phrase for ID/creationism and a lawyer saying "are we going to be having the same case except about xxx?" and the judge said "not in my courtroom".

He knows the finding right this second, his words will be far more important than the judgement itself.
Best that he take his time and close every possible loophole that could be exploited for an appeal. His ruling need not be wrong to get overturned, just legally slightly erroneous. Hope his ruling is iron-clad.
Betenoire is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2005, 09:28 AM   #417
petre
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 887
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
What! No decision until the end of the year! What happened to the decision after the commercial break? At least he will give a decision within a month and a half. I assume 'before the end of the year' means 'before Christmas?'
How could I have underestimated the US Court system's ability to add paperwork to every step? I forgot that the lawyers for the ID side still have to file their brief to have all scientific knowledge stricken from the record, since it is not yet a complete model of the universe
petre is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2005, 10:18 AM   #418
Diamond
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,729
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
While I would like a finding today at the latest, I appreciate what the judge is doing. He knows that his finding is going to be cited and re-cited and he wants to get his ducks in a row bigtime.

Remember that interchange (from memory) about yet another phrase for ID/creationism and a lawyer saying "are we going to be having the same case except about xxx?" and the judge said "not in my courtroom".

He knows the finding right this second, his words will be far more important than the judgement itself.
That's from the forthcoming third edition of "Of Pandas and Men". The first said:
Quote:
"Creation means that various forms of life began abruptly through the agency of an intelligent creator, with their distinctive features already intact ó fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, wings, etc."
The second, published after the 1987 Supreme Court decision that creationism was religion and not science said:

Quote:
"Intelligent design means that various forms of life began abruptly through an intelligent agency, with their distinctive features already intact ó fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks and wings, etc."
The next version 3.0 will have the sentence:

Quote:
"Sudden appearance means that various forms of life began abruptly through an intelligent agency, with their distinctive features already intact ó fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, wings, and mammals with fur and mammary glands, etc."
Hence, the query by the plaintiff's lawyer:
Quote:
As Eric Rothschild, one of the lawyers for the plaintiffs in the Panda Trial, asked in court, "Will we be back in a couple of years for the 'sudden appearance' trial?"
Judge John E. Jones III retorted, "Not on my docket."

All of the above quotes from Argento's column "Of Behe and Mammary Glands"
Diamond is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2005, 10:26 AM   #419
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Nap, interrupted.
 
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 19,131
How are we going to get our Argento fix now that the trial is over?

~~ Paul
__________________
Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz

RIP Mr. Skinny, Tim
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2005, 12:00 PM   #420
CFLarsen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 42,371
Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos View Post
How are we going to get our Argento fix now that the trial is over?
Why don't you mail him, tell him about this thread and how much we've enjoyed his articles?
CFLarsen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2005, 12:16 PM   #421
Spidey13
Pastor of Muppets
 
Spidey13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,457
Does anyone know if any of the slides/exhibits that were used during the trial are available online. I'm about halfway through the transcripts and I would really like to see some of these if it's possible.
__________________
"I love you like a fat kid love cake." - 50 Cent
Spidey13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 06:32 AM   #422
Ed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,658
Originally Posted by CFLarsen View Post
Why don't you mail him, tell him about this thread and how much we've enjoyed his articles?
Good idea. I just did.
Ed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 07:03 AM   #423
BillHoyt
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,758
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
Good idea. I just did.
I hope you signed it "God." He'd be very happy to know he has a fan upstairs. Might even send you some article reprints via John Edward.
BillHoyt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 07:27 AM   #424
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 33,161
Dover school board elections are today. Never, in my life, have I been remotely interested, let alone excited, about the outcome of a school board election.

Today, we should get some insight into what the voting people of Dover think about the whole situation.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 07:39 AM   #425
drkitten
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 21,629
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Dover school board elections are today. Never, in my life, have I been remotely interested, let alone excited, about the outcome of a school board election.

Today, we should get some insight into what the voting people of Dover think about the whole situation.
I'm willing to bet a trivial and non-monetary sum that the fundicrats win. Can I get some action down on this?
drkitten is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 07:40 AM   #426
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 33,161
Originally Posted by drkitten View Post
I'm willing to bet a trivial and non-monetary sum that the fundicrats win. Can I get some action down on this?
I was actually hoping they would pull a Kansas and vote these folks out at the first opportunity (only to re-elect them back in a later date). Here's to hoping.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 08:01 AM   #427
drkitten
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 21,629
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I was actually hoping they would pull a Kansas and vote these folks out at the first opportunity (only to re-elect them back in a later date). Here's to hoping.
You're on. Winner gets bragging rights, five million gallons of Niagra Falls, the Rock of Gibraltar, and the Internet.

Loser gets the state of New Jersey.
drkitten is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 09:16 AM   #428
Moose
Self-Propelled Road Hazard
 
Moose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 418
Originally Posted by drkitten View Post
Loser gets the state of New Jersey.
Don't they always?

Looking forward with great interest to the results of both the verdict (in December, hopefully) and the school board elections.

Dr. Kitten, Upchurch, could I get in on the action with the "alternative" Planet X bet? I'll throw Toronto, Ont and Surrey, BC into the pot. The other loser can get Don Cherry.
Moose is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 10:20 AM   #429
BillHoyt
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,758
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Today, we should get some insight into what the voting people of Dover think about the whole situation.
Contains a hidden assumption, does it not, about the prior voting people? Frankly, several somebodies weren't thinking at all the last time around. But, since the central tenet of the fundie campaign is ad populum, it would be an ironic turn of events for the populum to say they've ad it.
BillHoyt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 10:29 AM   #430
tsg
Philosopher
 
tsg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,771
Originally Posted by BillHoyt View Post
Contains a hidden assumption, does it not, about the prior voting people? Frankly, several somebodies weren't thinking at all the last time around. But, since the central tenet of the fundie campaign is ad populum, it would be an ironic turn of events for the populum to say they've ad it.
Testimony from the trial indicates that many of the current fundies were elected on a "fiscal responsibility" campaign. They were evidently undertaking a major construction project during the last election that got bungled somehow (as many public construction projects are wont to do). I highly doubt any of them ran on a "get religion back in school" platform. But now that their true colors are apparent, it will be interesting to see how it turns out. Personally, I don't expect much.
__________________
Being offended by someone questioning your beliefs is a sign that you should be questioning them.

In the beginning there was nothing. And the Lord said "Let There Be Light!" And still there was nothing, but at least now you could see it.
tsg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 12:28 PM   #431
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 33,161
Originally Posted by drkitten View Post
You're on. Winner gets bragging rights, five million gallons of Niagra Falls, the Rock of Gibraltar, and the Internet.
Sweet. I could finally upgrade my Arpanet!
Quote:
Loser gets the state of New Jersey.
A tad extreme, but as long as I have Funkytown, I'm happy.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 12:30 PM   #432
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 33,161
Originally Posted by BillHoyt View Post
Contains a hidden assumption, does it not, about the prior voting people?
Well, to tsg's point, this whole mess wasn't around during their last vote. Maybe they knew about their school board's religious tendencies, maybe they didn't. Point is, we'll know how they feel about the whole thing now.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 12:32 PM   #433
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 33,161
Oh, and just to sweeten the pot, if I lose, free title changes are on me!
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"Itís easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 12:37 PM   #434
delphi_ote
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,994
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Oh, and just to sweeten the pot, if I lose, free title changes are on me!
But if you win, you can change the loser's title to whatever you want...
delphi_ote is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 01:06 PM   #435
headscratcher4
Philosopher
 
headscratcher4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,776
I've a stupid question about all of this...did anyone ever ask Behe (sp?) or his supporters if something/one less than God could be responsible for the design he finds?

I mean, why does it have to be the "ultimate" god on high designer?

Maybe the "design" he sees was sort of the GM of the 1980's Intelligent Design shop...it would explain a lot.
__________________
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.

-- Homer Simpson
headscratcher4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 01:09 PM   #436
Melendwyr
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,064
Yes, Behe has said that the Intelligent Designer doesn't need to have been any particular kind of god.
Melendwyr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 01:13 PM   #437
headscratcher4
Philosopher
 
headscratcher4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,776
Originally Posted by Melendwyr View Post
Yes, Behe has said that the Intelligent Designer doesn't need to have been any particular kind of god.
Thank you...but I think (I may be wrong) that my question is different. Could the "designer" be something less than the creator/god?

Wasn't it clark who once said something along the lines that any sufficiently advanced technology would appear like magic to the uninitiated?

My point is, it is religion, not science, imo, to advocate as behe does that it is a "creator" or even "god" in the picture...why not the 2001 flying Obelisk?
__________________
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.

-- Homer Simpson
headscratcher4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 01:15 PM   #438
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 104,485
Originally Posted by headscratcher4 View Post
Thank you...but I think (I may be wrong) that my question is different. Could the "designer" be something less than the creator/god?

Wasn't it clark who once said something along the lines that any sufficiently advanced technology would appear like magic to the uninitiated?

My point is, it is religion, not science, imo, to advocate as behe does that it is a "creator" or even "god" in the picture...why not the 2001 flying Obelisk?
I'm sure you know the answer but...

Because he already believes in God and is only interested if his "question" can be answered with "God".
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 01:20 PM   #439
Melendwyr
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,064
Yes, but as he's trying to convince people who won't permit the hypothesis to be taught if it requires the Christian God or any other god, he's stated that the IDer can have other-than-divine origins. Aliens, for example.

I believe that was asked during the trial itself. I could be mistaken.
Melendwyr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th November 2005, 01:31 PM   #440
ranson
Scheme Monkey
 
ranson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,045
I, myself, signed up for the ACLUPA's one-time email alert for the Dover ruling.

An I hope Mike Argento shows up and takes a look here. I've rarely laughed harder at a humor columnist (possibly Lewis Grizzard, but that's been a long time).
ranson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » Reference » Forum Spotlight

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:02 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.