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Tags christianity , heaven , spouses

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Old 8th February 2020, 10:16 AM   #41
xterra
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Treb linked to a picture of an unsealed (whatever that means) family. The associated text says this is what the family will look like.

I have several questions about this.


Will my hair grow back?

Will I be required to wear a tie?

Will people from non-Western/non-European cultures be required to dress like the people in the picture?

Also which of my previous wives will be part of my family?

What about polygamous LDS men: Will they have all of their spouses?

Will LDS be required to wear "garments" and will the rest of us also be required to wear them?
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Old 8th February 2020, 10:28 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
Treb linked to a picture of an unsealed (whatever that means) family. The associated text says this is what the family will look like.

I have several questions about this.


Will my hair grow back?

Will I be required to wear a tie?

Will people from non-Western/non-European cultures be required to dress like the people in the picture?

Also which of my previous wives will be part of my family?

What about polygamous LDS men: Will they have all of their spouses?

Will LDS be required to wear "garments" and will the rest of us also be required to wear them?
Although the article is about "unsealed" families, I think the picture is of a "sealed" one. There's a very similar picture (or was, it's been a while) in the lobby of the LDS Family History library.
If someone seals me and they make me wear a tie, I'm going back to a lower level of heaven!
Whichever of your wives gets sealed to you by proxy will be the one you're stuck with, I think.
But Brigham Young will have all 57 or however many it was wives.
Hadn't though about the "temple garments"! Those are pretty creepy anyhow.
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Old 8th February 2020, 10:36 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
...it had never occurred to me there could be that many gay men in all of Utah.
Salt Lake City was The Advocate's "Gayest City in America" in 2012. The local chamber of commerce literally had no idea what to do with that.
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Old 9th February 2020, 01:49 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But heaven wasn't a super clean Swedish Montreal paradise, it wasn't a place at all, what we face after dying here was to become part of god.
Which part?
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Old 9th February 2020, 03:38 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Which part?
Probably you get a price list when you get there? There may not be a hell but an eternity as god's..............
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Old 9th February 2020, 06:22 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
...(...it boiled down to losing your individuality.)
Now that makes actual sense - and it is an apt description of what death really is: When the boundaries of your mind and body are lost and the former "you" become mixed up again (accelerated entropy increase) with all the rest there is.

What your folks taught you is that you will really be deader and deader.
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Old 9th February 2020, 08:13 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
When I was a kid heaven and hell were two topics I struggled with when I was in Sunday school. Now my family on my mother's side were "primitive methodists" which I learned years later meant we had a very barebones religion even compared to other Methodists and Weslyians. They "solved" the heaven and hell problem by having no one go to hell, Jesus's sacrifice meant god will forgive everyone everything and anything (yep serial killers and the vilest of abusers, had questions about that as well) and everyone went to heaven. But heaven wasn't a super clean Swedish Montreal paradise, it wasn't a place at all, what we face after dying here was to become part of god. (To be fair it was all coached in a lot more flowery language, "eternity in God's presence" and such marketing nonsense but it boiled down to losing your individuality.)
Your last two sentences put me in mind of something which I read long ago, written by C.S. Lewis. I'm a Christian, sorta-kinda (I know that many on more than one side, will say that that's impossible to be) -- but have always tended to find Lewis, in his non-fiction works (I personally hate the Narnia crap, too), a miserable naysaying so-and-so -- anything which I would wish to be the case, he seems to put a damper on.

As with this: I remember reading something by Lewis, to the effect that in his perception, in Heaven (as seen by him, not for everyone -- only for those who, however vile their sins, have genuinely repented and accepted Christ as their saviour) -- we will not be ourselves as on Earth, nor recognise as themselves, those whom we knew on Earth: will all be generally subsumed in the overall gloriousness, in comparison to which people's on-Earth grievously flawed individual personalities, will be as nothing. He acknowledges there, that he's likely disappointing and pouring cold water on the many Christians who ardently long to meet again in Heaven, those whom they knew and loved on Earth. (Forget about the spousal /sex thing, reckoned covered in Matthew and Mark.)

Well, C.S., thank you very ******* much for your kind condescencion here -- and, not to get too uncharitably nasty, I hope your bloody rabbit dies, and you can't sell the goddamn hutch. It would seem that he is in this, happily on the "losing your individuality" bandwagon.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I agree that many religions try to use logic and apply it, but of course the issue they always have is that no matter their starting point they end up with conclusions that are in contradiction with other beliefs or conclusions. This is because the logic is applied post hoc to the conclusions they already have.
Recalls (same thing, slightly different words) something from a long-ago-read and mostly forgotten, sci-fi / fantasy offering, which I've always liked: "people believe / opine what they want to; and apply pseudo-logical justification after the event".

Last edited by fleabeetle; 9th February 2020 at 08:15 AM. Reason: word / sense change
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Old 23rd February 2020, 08:55 PM   #48
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I am an hardcore anti-theist but I am guaranteed a spot in heaven. Here's how I worked it out:

My sister is very religious and is always trying to convert me to her cult. One day we had a conversation that went something like this.

Me: So sis, what is heaven in your beliefs?

Sis: It's where you go after you die to be surrounded by people you love?

Me: So like mom, and dad, and Uncle Oscar?

Sis: That's right.

Me: Do you love me?

Sis: Yes!

Me: Well, I'll see you there then.
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Old 23rd February 2020, 10:36 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I am an hardcore anti-theist but I am guaranteed a spot in heaven. Here's how I worked it out:

My sister is very religious and is always trying to convert me to her cult. One day we had a conversation that went something like this.

Me: So sis, what is heaven in your beliefs?

Sis: It's where you go after you die to be surrounded by people you love?

Me: So like mom, and dad, and Uncle Oscar?

Sis: That's right.

Me: Do you love me?

Sis: Yes!

Me: Well, I'll see you there then.
Fat chance. Your credulous sister will get a hologram, or endless letters from imaginary paradises promising you'll be home soon. You're gonna fry.
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Old 24th February 2020, 12:13 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post

A lot of those virgins appear to be male!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th February 2020, 12:27 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
When I was a kid heaven and hell were two topics I struggled with when I was in Sunday school. Now my family on my mother's side were "primitive methodists" which I learned years later meant we had a very barebones religion even compared to other Methodists and Weslyians. They "solved" the heaven and hell problem by having no one go to hell, Jesus's sacrifice meant god will forgive everyone everything and anything (yep serial killers and the vilest of abusers, had questions about that as well) and everyone went to heaven. But heaven wasn't a super clean Swedish Montreal paradise, it wasn't a place at all, what we face after dying here was to become part of god. (To be fair it was all coached in a lot more flowery language, "eternity in God's presence" and such marketing nonsense but it boiled down to losing your individuality.)

Like a hive mind? Or a Trump rally?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th February 2020, 12:29 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I am an hardcore anti-theist but I am guaranteed a spot in heaven. Here's how I worked it out:

My sister is very religious and is always trying to convert me to her cult. One day we had a conversation that went something like this.

Me: So sis, what is heaven in your beliefs?

Sis: It's where you go after you die to be surrounded by people you love?

Me: So like mom, and dad, and Uncle Oscar?

Sis: That's right.

Me: Do you love me?

Sis: Yes!

Me: Well, I'll see you there then.
Actually, the way it works according to church fathers is that if you're a non-believer, your relatives in heaven will be downright DELIGHTED to watch you burn in hell. In fact, it would downright ruin the fun of people in heaven if, say, a mother there didn't get to see her unbaptized dead baby frying for all eternity. I'm not making it up.

Yeah, that's what you get when the kind of fanboys that would be called deranged crackpots in any other fandom get to be "church fathers" when it's the Jesus fan club.
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Old 24th February 2020, 07:10 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Actually, the way it works according to church fathers is that if you're a non-believer, your relatives in heaven will be downright DELIGHTED to watch you burn in hell.

Not only according to church fathers. A former acquaintance, when I told him that his personal experience of a holy spirit* entering him was not proof to me that his god existed, sent me an email in which he said exactly that.


Loving kindness indeed.
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Old 24th February 2020, 12:18 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But heaven wasn't a super clean Swedish Montreal paradise
Forget the theology, I need to know what a "Swedish Montreal paradise" means.
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Old 24th February 2020, 01:45 PM   #55
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So am I the only person who keeps mentally adding "... with the candlestick." to the end of the thread title every time he sees it?
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Old 24th February 2020, 08:42 PM   #56
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From Wikipedia,

Quote:
The union of a sealed couple is regarded as valid only if both individuals have kept their religious commitments and followed LDS teachings. Just as deceased individuals may refuse any temple ordinance (such as a sealing) done by proxy on their behalf, couples, parents, and children who were sealed to each other in life may refuse to accept a sealing of which they were a part. No one will be sealed to any one with whom they do not want to be sealed.
Hightlight mine.

How can a deceased person do anything?

If they could, how would the still-living people know?

If a person authorized to perform the sealing does so against the wishes of the deceased, what happens to the authorized person?


Lots of questions ....
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Old 24th February 2020, 11:14 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
From Wikipedia,

Hightlight mine.

How can a deceased person do anything?

If they could, how would the still-living people know?

If a person authorized to perform the sealing does so against the wishes of the deceased, what happens to the authorized person?


Lots of questions ....
So it sounds as if, for good folks at least, after you die you go to heaven for a sort of guest tour, during which you're asked "do you want to stay here in heaven or would you rather be tossed into the screaming pits of Hell?" To which at least a few will answer "I'd rather skewered and rotisseried over the flames of hell than spend another day with that ****!" and down you go.
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Old 25th February 2020, 10:07 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
How can a deceased person do anything?
It means the spirit of the deceased person. Permission required from living heirs for proxy rituals done on behalf of dead progenitors seems to be a technical deference to modern sensitivity. Someone living today can give permission for, say, his dead parents to receive a proxy sealing. Presumably he would know whether that's something they would have approved of. Obviously, barring necromancy, he has no way of knowing whether his actions were accepted or well received by the souls of his parents. However, if it's long-dead Grandpa Joe, then the church just does it anyway without seeking permission, and presumably no one alive knows or cares.

In either scenario, the souls of the deceased can decide to subscribe to that ritual. So when Grandpa Joe finds out he's been sealed to his wife for all eternity without his or anyone else's permission, his soul can say, "Dagnabbit, I ain't spending eternity with that spiteful wench. Kin ya bring back ma dog instead?"
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Old 25th February 2020, 11:01 AM   #59
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"Barring necromancy"? One should never discount necromancy. Like spontaneous human combustion or the dreaded candiru, it doesn't crop up very often, but when it does, whoooo boy you'd best take notice. Lessons learned, worst Xmas ever!
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Old 25th February 2020, 11:13 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
There is no sex in heaven so it really doesn't matter.
No sex in heaven? If that's the case, I have a hard time seeing how it could be much better than hell.
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Old 25th February 2020, 01:14 PM   #61
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Deciding whether to opt for heaven or hell is not an easy task. See:



https://lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/hell.htm
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Old 27th February 2020, 01:40 PM   #62
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I remember reading a novel decades ago, Heinlein's "Job, A Comedy of Justice", maybe. A man is in a fairly unhappy marriage when he starts randomly shifting into alternate Earths. He eventually meets a woman who starts traveling with him and they fall in love. On the assumption that he'll never get home, they get married. They eventually get separated, and the man eventually ends up in heaven. He's told that he's going to be reunited with his wife, but it turns out to be his original wife from his home dimension.

In the Order of the Stick webcomic, your form in the afterlife is based on how you see yourself on the inside. When Roy temporarily goes to Heaven, he encounters his parents. His mother is a shapely 19 year old (which greatly disturbs him) because on the inside she's still the lively and vivacious person she was in her youth. His father is the old man he was when he died because he had been a bitter and withered old man on the inside even when he was young.

I think it was a Perry Bible Fellowship comic that had a man approach God in Heaven.
"God?"
"Yes, my son?"
"Is there a pool table here?"
"Do you really need a pool table?"
"I guess not."
(God turns away)
(Man looks around in boredom) Thinks: "This sucks."

I once read about an afterlife belief that has to be one of the most pointless. The soul has two portions: a mortal portion that dies with the body, and an immortal portion that is reincarnated over and over until its spiritual growth is complete and it "achieves union with the Godhead", ceasing to exist as a distinct entity. The real kicker is that memories and personality are contained in the mortal portion of the soul. Not only does what makes you "you" die with your body, what does survive will eventually be consumed too.
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Old 27th February 2020, 10:10 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
In the Order of the Stick webcomic, your form in the afterlife is based on how you see yourself on the inside. When Roy temporarily goes to Heaven, he encounters his parents. His mother is a shapely 19 year old (which greatly disturbs him) because on the inside she's still the lively and vivacious person she was in her youth. His father is the old man he was when he died because he had been a bitter and withered old man on the inside even when he was young.
Coincidentally, when I reached the point where Roy got to play blocks with his brother who died as a child, something mysteriously got into my eyes.
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Old 1st March 2020, 07:59 AM   #64
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The bible ideas of heaven are what an iron age goat herder thinks would be great, cool breezes clean water and all the turnups you can eat.
A modern person's idea would be more elaborate, a starship crewed with sexy humanoid aliens, vast knowledge so on so on.
A fundy would say well it aint hell.
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Old 1st March 2020, 10:43 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by kedo1981 View Post
The bible ideas of heaven are what an iron age goat herder thinks would be great, cool breezes clean water and all the turnups you can eat.
A modern person's idea would be more elaborate, a starship crewed with sexy humanoid aliens, vast knowledge so on so on.
A fundy would say well it aint hell.
Phooey. If I have to spend eternity with my ex wife without even a rutabaga to nibble on I'm outa there!
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