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Old 13th August 2018, 09:40 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
An absolutely positively certain fact. Why? Because you say so.
Well, I can't prove a negative, but there has been no evidence to the contrary. To assert otherwise without specific evidence or mechanism is to have a certain naiveté about security.


Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What does a repeat screening of an out of date video prove? Does repetition make it righter?
A repeat screening might cause what it's saying to sink in, rather than being dismissed out of hand without evidence. The majority of it's arguments are not addressed either by blockchain or by vaguely waving one's hands about the proper way to do things.
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Old 13th August 2018, 10:17 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you are referring to 51% attacks then that has already been discussed. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post12384356
Discussed but not adequately answered..
This has a fairly good review of the consensus based protocols and it seems that they can all be subverted just by sheer volume of bad actors.
Quote:
I think it has been pretty well established that the existing electronic voting machines were set up by criminals who's main objectives were hackability and opaqueness.
And why do you think that would change? Why is having something that is hard to undermine in spite of all that a bad thing?
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Old 13th August 2018, 10:36 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
A repeat screening might cause what it's saying to sink in, rather than being dismissed out of hand without evidence.
Nobody is interested in a centralized opaque vote counting process - except for those who make money from it or those who wish to handwave blockchain away.
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Old 13th August 2018, 10:52 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Nobody is interested in a centralized opaque vote counting process - except for those who make money from it or those who wish to handwave blockchain away.
That has absolutely no relevance to what you were responding to.
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Old 13th August 2018, 11:27 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
That has absolutely no relevance to what you were responding to.
So your video is not about a centralized opaque vote counting process?
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Old 13th August 2018, 11:30 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So your video is not about a centralized opaque vote counting process?
Not even a little bit. Are you under the impression that paper votes for national elections are counted by a single person in one spot all by themselves?
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Old 13th August 2018, 12:04 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So your video is not about a centralized opaque vote counting process?
The point made in the first few minutes still stands.

Electoral integrity relies on anonymity and minimal need to trust anyone.

You might argue that blockchain achieves both, but it doesn't, really.

The system would be opaque to the vast majority of the electorate. On its own, that should be sufficient to make blockchain unsuitable.

It also is open to abuse before the votes are cast.

The paper analogy would be allowing all the valid voters to vote, but having a register of fake names that go into the polling stations and hand mark an X by their desired candidate.

That could happen, but if done in any significant numbers, would require lots of people to vote multiple times and either drive between polling stations, or risk the officials spotting them. With an electronic system, that isn't the case. It's as easy to subvert all the polling stations as to subvert one.
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Old 13th August 2018, 05:19 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Not even a little bit.
Then you haven't watched your own video.
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Old 13th August 2018, 06:16 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Then you haven't watched your own video.
He specifically argues against it. Like, very specifically. And that was only one of many points.
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Old 13th August 2018, 07:31 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
He specifically argues against it. Like, very specifically.
So it is about a centralized opaque vote counting process.
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Old 14th August 2018, 03:28 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So it is about a centralized opaque vote counting process.
*facepalm*

Okay. In the odd usage of “about”, where a tiny sliver of the thing being argued against is a summary of the argument itself, I suppose it is. The same way the Declaration of Independence is about King George plundering our seas. It misses the point of the document entirely, but is technically correct that the idea exists.

Your comment still has no relevance to the post you were responding to, as I was saying that you are fixated on a single link in the chain (no pun intended) ignoring that all the other links make one good link useless. Heck, any one bad link makes all good links useless. All you did was reiterate that we might have a single good link.

I mean, YAY! but also largely meaningless as we don’t have a working chain.
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Old 14th August 2018, 03:50 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
*facepalm*

Okay. In the odd usage of “about”, where a tiny sliver of the thing being argued against is a summary of the argument itself, I suppose it is. The same way the Declaration of Independence is about King George plundering our seas. It misses the point of the document entirely, but is technically correct that the idea exists.

Your comment still has no relevance to the post you were responding to, as I was saying that you are fixated on a single link in the chain (no pun intended) ignoring that all the other links make one good link useless. Heck, any one bad link makes all good links useless. All you did was reiterate that we might have a single good link.

I mean, YAY! but also largely meaningless as we don’t have a working chain.
Indeed, there are multiple weak links, and I can accept for the sake of argument that it would be difficult to attack the strongest part of the blockchain implementation. But that's like locking all your windows and leaving the front door wide open and being happy that burglars won't get in an upstairs window.
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Old 14th August 2018, 06:22 AM   #333
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A story about the report that "contributes to the discussion" about Distributed Ledger Technology (DLT). Link in the article, haven't read the full paper, YMMV etc...
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Old 14th August 2018, 06:53 AM   #334
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Another:

An 11-year-old changed election results on a replica Florida state website in under 10 minutes

This is the same conference I posted a picture from a few days ago with a hacked voting machine running animated gifs.
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Old 14th August 2018, 07:59 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
The point made in the first few minutes still stands.

Electoral integrity relies on anonymity and minimal need to trust anyone.

You might argue that blockchain achieves both, but it doesn't, really.

The system would be opaque to the vast majority of the electorate. On its own, that should be sufficient to make blockchain unsuitable.
Furthermore, as I argued in my initial post the security of blockchain becomes a problem for election transparency because no one can verify if the votes were a) real ballots not fake ones generated by election officials b) cast by the people the ballot was intended for c) the actual votes people thought they were casting.
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Old 14th August 2018, 08:00 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Another:

An 11-year-old changed election results on a replica Florida state website in under 10 minutes

This is the same conference I posted a picture from a few days ago with a hacked voting machine running animated gifs.
From The Register article about that story;

Quote:
Incidentally, on Wednesday, US Republican senators shot down $250m in emergency election security funding proposed by Senator Patrick Leahy (D-VT) – a figure that Hacking Village cofounder Jake Braun told The Register was too small by a factor of 10 if the November elections were to be anywhere close to secure. Cost concerns were cited by the ruling party as a key factor in that decision.
Although, to be fair, the site the youngsters attacked was seeded with known but classic website\programming mistakes. The voting machine attacks were against 'normal' machines.
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Old 14th August 2018, 08:07 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Furthermore, as I argued in my initial post the security of blockchain becomes a problem for election transparency because no one can verify if the votes were a) real ballots not fake ones generated by election officials b) cast by the people the ballot was intended for c) the actual votes people thought they were casting.
I thought the argument was a and b but not c... or was I misunderstanding?

Could tge actual voter determine that their vote was cast correctly during the count?

I have not bothered to learn much about blockchain - and it is unnecessary for the purpose of this discussion as there are multiple fatal flaws so the presence or absence of another ie superfluous.
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Old 14th August 2018, 08:23 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I thought the argument was a and b but not c... or was I misunderstanding?
My argument was that when the system is compromised security features including those of blockchain prevents the public from seeing that it’s happened. The issue isn’t limited to just these examples.
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Could tge actual voter determine that their vote was cast correctly during the count?
I guess that would depend on how the system was designed, but remember that to confirm a vote would require voter information be tied to the vote which in turn would compromise the anonymity you are trying to achieve.
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Old 14th August 2018, 08:23 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
Although, to be fair, the site the youngsters attacked was seeded with known but classic website\programming mistakes. The voting machine attacks were against 'normal' machines.
To be ...less fair? ...even more fairer? There is still a trust/verification issue with electronic voting where you can't see what's happening inside the black box. Maybe those classic mistakes aren't there. Maybe they are. You have to trust who ever built it, or who ever says they verified it, aren't lying or incompetent.
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Old 14th August 2018, 08:26 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Furthermore, as I argued in my initial post the security of blockchain becomes a problem for election transparency because no one can verify if the votes were a) real ballots not fake ones generated by election officials b) cast by the people the ballot was intended for c) the actual votes people thought they were casting.

And the only apparent way to solve some of those problems is by tying voting records to voters. Bitcoin transactions do not identify the wallet owners, but that's by design. A voting record might, but that would violate the principle of a secret ballot.
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Old 14th August 2018, 08:43 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
And the only apparent way to solve some of those problems is by tying voting records to voters. Bitcoin transactions do not identify the wallet owners, but that's by design. A voting record might, but that would violate the principle of a secret ballot.
And even if they are, it doesn't stop the electoral register having phantom voters.

The same could happen with a paper ballot but the physical interventions to exploit tgese are likely to be noticed. it would be quite simple to have a list of fake voters that would be unlikely to be spotted with plausible addresses
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Old 14th August 2018, 08:45 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
And the only apparent way to solve some of those problems is by tying voting records to voters. Bitcoin transactions do not identify the wallet owners, but that's by design. A voting record might, but that would violate the principle of a secret ballot.
Yup. Furthermore, if we assume the system is designed guarantee anonymity AND blockchain itself IS perfectly secure we have now zero transparency in the system. IOW even if we could archive it, perfect computer security forces us to choose between transparency and anonymity.

It’s not exactly an uncommon problem. You can’t make things public and secure at the same time. Eg in single sign on systems it’s essentially impossible to fully prevent privilege escalation attacks. Your encrypted ticket that proves your identity not only needs to be accessible, it needs to be handed out when prompted for in order for you to use it. Once an attacker has it they can use it almost as freely as you can. Or, how about the stupidity of encrypting data on CD/DVD/etc drives. It needs to be unencrypted to play it so literally everyone can do so. The only apparent rational is to make it illegal for people to use the data on anything but “approved” devices.
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Old 14th August 2018, 08:47 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
And the only apparent way to solve some of those problems is by tying voting records to voters. Bitcoin transactions do not identify the wallet owners, but that's by design. A voting record might, but that would violate the principle of a secret ballot.
Further to my previous post, this is a fundamental issue with electronic voting.

You need functional anonymity but with the ability to have traceability if required and only in exceptional circumstances.

For the sake of argument, I am willing to accept that one can create sn electronic voting system that allows either of these but not both.

ETA: What lomiller said above
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Old 14th August 2018, 09:04 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Furthermore, as I argued in my initial post the security of blockchain becomes a problem for election transparency because no one can verify if the votes were a) real ballots not fake ones generated by election officials b) cast by the people the ballot was intended for c) the actual votes people thought they were casting.
You might not have the faintest idea of what a blockchain is nor how it addresses issues such as transparency or security but that doesn't make a single word you posted true. It is pure nonsense.

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
And the only apparent way to solve some of those problems is by tying voting records to voters. Bitcoin transactions do not identify the wallet owners, but that's by design. A voting record might, but that would violate the principle of a secret ballot.
Ring encryption and other encoding measures make it possible to hide the way a person voted from all but the person who possesses the private key.
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Old 14th August 2018, 09:15 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You might not have the faintest idea of what a blockchain is nor how it addresses issues such as transparency or security but that doesn't make a single word you posted true. It is pure nonsense.


Ring encryption and other encoding measures make it possible to hide the way a person voted from all but the person who possesses the private key.
And this is one small aspect of the whole voting system.

The vast majority of voters won't understand how their vote is secure.

If there is a question about the voting, it relies on the voters investigating their own votes.

It doesn't protect against someone stealing people's credentials via phishing emails.

And it doesn't prevent the electoral administrators (or someone who has compromised the system) from having a pool of phantom voters to use as they see fot.
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Old 14th August 2018, 09:24 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
To be ...less fair? ...even more fairer? There is still a trust/verification issue with electronic voting where you can't see what's happening inside the black box. Maybe those classic mistakes aren't there. Maybe they are. You have to trust who ever built it, or who ever says they verified it, aren't lying or incompetent.
No argument from me

Was just trying to clarify that it was a crafted example rather than a real example before the whole point gets thrown out because "Lol! It wasn't a real site! Strawman!!"
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Old 14th August 2018, 09:32 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And this is one small aspect of the whole voting system.

The vast majority of voters won't understand how their vote is secure.

If there is a question about the voting, it relies on the voters investigating their own votes.

It doesn't protect against someone stealing people's credentials via phishing emails.

And it doesn't prevent the electoral administrators (or someone who has compromised the system) from having a pool of phantom voters to use as they see fot.
I have already addressed these issues and agree that there is no satisfactory answer yet.

However everybody wants to focus on blockchain so that they can accuse me of only focusing on blockchain.
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Old 14th August 2018, 09:39 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Ring encryption and other encoding measures make it possible to hide the way a person voted from all but the person who possesses the private key.

In other words, like virtually everything else about electronic voting, we can only trust the system to the extent that we trust that the people who run it aren't compromised.
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Old 14th August 2018, 09:52 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I have already addressed these issues and agree that there is no satisfactory answer yet.

However everybody wants to focus on blockchain so that they can accuse me of only focusing on blockchain.
I don't want to discuss blockchain, because its security is irrelevant to the issue.

It's putting window locks on. whilst leaving all the doors open.
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Old 14th August 2018, 10:12 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
In other words, like virtually everything else about electronic voting, we can only trust the system to the extent that we trust that the people who run it aren't compromised.
I will admit that I'm still a bit confused about the transparency portion of the argument. Could a person with average poll worker-like skill level look at the blockchain artifact and identify a problem without it going through an interpreter to make it human readable?

Because the moment a blockchain has to be decoded to be read, you have introduced an attack vector. And if it, still encoded, can only be identified by someone with highly specialized training, you begin to limit the redundancy, which increases the level of trust you have to place in any one individual.
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Old 14th August 2018, 10:13 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
In other words, like virtually everything else about electronic voting, we can only trust the system to the extent that we trust that the people who run it aren't compromised.
How does that follow from what you quoted?

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I don't want to discuss blockchain, because its security is irrelevant to the issue.

It's putting window locks on. whilst leaving all the doors open.
Then you are a minority here.

The point is that there is a technological solution to the question of counting votes faithfully while keeping votes private and allowing individuals to confirm that their vote was recorded correctly.

There does not seem to be a satisfactory technological solution to the problem of hacked computing devices or voting machines and even if there was, politics and bean counting might prevent those solutions being implemented.
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Old 14th August 2018, 10:17 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I will admit that I'm still a bit confused about the transparency portion of the argument. Could a person with average poll worker-like skill level look at the blockchain artifact and identify a problem without it going through an interpreter to make it human readable?

Because the moment a blockchain has to be decoded to be read, you have introduced an attack vector. And if it, still encoded, can only be identified by someone with highly specialized training, you begin to limit the redundancy, which increases the level of trust you have to place in any one individual.
Of course it's transparent. In the case of bitcoin, there are many blockchain explorers that one could use to see what is happening. If you don't trust one explorer then you can simply use another one. No skill is required. The results are displayed in plain English.

(See how everybody focuses on blockchain?)
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Old 14th August 2018, 10:18 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The point is that there is a technological solution to the question of counting votes faithfully while keeping votes private and allowing individuals to confirm that their vote was recorded correctly.
Like I said, we can do that with Survey Monkey. It was never about whether it was technically possible.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There does not seem to be a satisfactory technological solution to the problem of hacked computing devices or voting machines and even if there was, politics and bean counting might prevent those solutions being implemented.
Therein lies the rub and, honestly, the entire point of that video I posted.
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Old 14th August 2018, 10:23 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post

Then you are a minority here.
.
No he isn’t. No one other than you has more than a passing interest in discussing blockchain because even in the best of cases it only “fixes” small and largely irrelevant issues with electronic voting.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post


The point is that there is a technological solution to the question of counting votes faithfully while keeping votes private and allowing individuals to confirm that their vote was recorded correctly.
Counting votes is a trivial issue. Blockchain doesn't solve the issue of keeping them private or allowing people to validate them.
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Old 14th August 2018, 10:26 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Counting votes is a trivial issue. Blockchain doesn't solve the issue of keeping them private or allowing people to validate them.
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Old 14th August 2018, 10:28 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
In the case of bitcoin, there are many blockchain explorers that one could use to see what is happening.
There it is. Attack vector. Compromise that for the auditors and it'd be like saying poll workers can only watch the voting box through this closed circuit camera, which I promise is pointed at the voting box you're responsible for.
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Old 14th August 2018, 10:29 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
How does that follow from what you quoted?

You said that "ring encryption" would address my traceability concern. Ring encryption means that multiple people have keys that are all different but able to decrypt the same data. What happens if one is dishonest, or a dishonest person gets his password in one way or another? Anyway, what you're saying is that we have to give up the idea of a secret ballot and just try to put a tight software lock on who has access. That doesn't begin to solve the fundamental problems with electronic voting, which is: it's all software, accent on the soft.
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Old 14th August 2018, 05:05 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
There it is. Attack vector. Compromise that for the auditors and it'd be like saying poll workers can only watch the voting box through this closed circuit camera, which I promise is pointed at the voting box you're responsible for.
This must be the most ridiculous post ever! (I wasted a laughing dog prematurely). What did you expect to happen? That people would examine each bit of the blockchain with a magnifying glass?

A blockchain explorer is just a bit of software that reads a blockchain and outputs the desired information in a human readable format. It does nothing to the blockchain itself and nobody is tied to any one specific explorer (there can be many versions).
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Old 14th August 2018, 05:09 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
You said that "ring encryption" would address my traceability concern. Ring encryption means that multiple people have keys that are all different but able to decrypt the same data. ......
You apparently have a very specific algorithm in mind whereas I was intending to be more general with these vote encryption algorithms.

From the Monero website:
Quote:
Monero uses ring signatures, ring confidential transactions, and stealth addresses to obfuscate the origins, amounts, and destinations of all transactions. Monero provides all the benefits of a decentralized cryptocurrency, without any of the typical privacy concessions.
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Old 14th August 2018, 05:29 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This must be the most ridiculous post ever! (I wasted a laughing dog prematurely). What did you expect to happen? That people would examine each bit of the blockchain with a magnifying glass?

A blockchain explorer is just a bit of software that reads a blockchain and outputs the desired information in a human readable format. It does nothing to the blockchain itself and nobody is tied to any one specific explorer (there can be many versions).
That’s kind of the point, isn’t it. If you cannot read the raw file, you’re introducing yet another layer of trust between auditors and the record being audited. That a blockchain requires a specialized software to read them is a weakness, not an acceptable assumption.

I honestly don’t know why you’re surprised by this. I’ve been pointing out this particular flaw from the beginning.
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