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Tags donald trump , protest incidents , US-Denmark relations

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Old 8th August 2019, 11:50 AM   #121
MRC_Hans
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Lack of respect is not the same as threatening something. I have profound lack of respect for the Chinese government, but they have no legitimate concern that I will somehow threaten their rule.

Can you provide some details about your concern that Trump could threaten your democratic freedoms?
I can, but you already know.

Of course you are no potential threat to China, but Trump is to Denmark. I don't think I have to spell out the difference to you.

Hans
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Old 8th August 2019, 11:59 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It'd be nice to have this data

I hope that you find the data you're looking for.
I can help you with the thoughts of the Dane who is going to borrow the balloon from its owner for the Trump visit to Copenhagen:

Quote:
The balloon, used for demonstrations in London as well as in several locations in the USA, shows Donald Trump as a baby with a diaper - and with a cell-phone in his hand.
A picture that Morten Skovgaard thinks fits the US president well:
- He is acting like a baby. With his narcissism, his complete lack of rational thinking and the conversations he has with people, it is obvious that he should be portrayed as a child.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th August 2019, 12:04 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I can, but you already know.
I don't know, actually. Last time I asked about the threat to your democratic freedoms, you answered by describing a threat to your economy, which is not the same thing. So I don't know. Which is why I'm asking.

Quote:
Of course you are no potential threat to China, but Trump is to Denmark. I don't think I have to spell out the difference to you.
I didn't think I'd have to spell out the difference between disrespecting and threatening, but that happened.

By what mechanism could Donald Trump threaten your democratic freedoms?
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Old 8th August 2019, 12:10 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I wonder if, as skeptics, we can examine the data on this balloon.
  • What was the intended result of deploying the balloon in the UK?
  • Was it intended to modify Trump's behavior in some way?
  • Do we know if it did modify Trump's behavior in that way?
  • Do we know if it modified Trump's behavior in some other way?
  • Was it intended to have an effect on other people who saw the balloon?
  • Do we know if it had that effect on those other people?
  • Do we know if it had some other effect on those people?
  • How do the people who deployed the balloon feel about the Trump situation?
  • Better? Worse? About the same?
  • Etc.

It'd be nice to have this data, and then compare it to the data from the Danish deployment. Seems like we could learn useful, practical stuff about protest balloons, UKians, and Denmarkians, with a proper bit of data collection and analysis.

I guess this could all be summarized as "what's the point of the balloon?" But I doubt anyone here has a good, skeptical, data-driven answer to that question.
Who cares, really? Anything to put a figurative thumb in the eye of an unfit baby in the White House. At least we who want to see this dangerous clown tossed out of power--and hopefully into jail--derive some small measure of temporary pleasure before that happy day when we can finally say we're rid of the bastard.
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Old 8th August 2019, 12:47 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I hope that you find the data you're looking for.
I can help you with the thoughts of the Dane who is going to borrow the balloon from its owner for the Trump visit to Copenhagen:
Interesting. Do you happen to know what he intends to accomplish with the balloon, and whether he expects to succeed in that goal?
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Old 8th August 2019, 12:56 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I can assure you that democratic freedom is an issue and that we are extremely concerned about it in Denmark. If you are not concerned in the US, then so much worse.

Hans
I hope the Danish people follow the example of El Paso in how to receive Trump.
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Old 8th August 2019, 12:58 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I expect he will, on the official level, be given the royal treatment (literally).

And I will expect there will be protesters in the streets. That's how democracy works, and I can't imagine President Trump does not know and respect this. Can you?

Hans
He doesn't know this and respect this. If you think he does ... what are you basing this statement on?

Most U.S. politicians will make noise about respecting protesters and different points of view but rarely has Trump expressed anything like that.
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Old 8th August 2019, 01:16 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I guess this could all be summarized as "what's the point of the balloon?" But I doubt anyone here has a good, skeptical, data-driven answer to that question.
The point IMO is to ridicule Trump by crystallizing aspects of his personality in a humorous way. Which you know. It's an expression of free political speech. Now, does political speech need detailed metrics to justify itself? Or is it something we value just for its own sake?
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Old 8th August 2019, 01:37 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
The point IMO is to ridicule Trump by crystallizing aspects of his personality in a humorous way. Which you know. It's an expression of free political speech. Now, does political speech need detailed metrics to justify itself? Or is it something we value just for its own sake?

Everything happens for a reason. Even if you're just talking to hear yourself talk, we can still discover whether you are actually hearing yourself, and we can still enquire whether it turned out to be as satisfying as you thought it would be.
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Old 8th August 2019, 02:23 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Everything happens for a reason. Even if you're just talking to hear yourself talk, we can still discover whether you are actually hearing yourself, and we can still enquire whether it turned out to be as satisfying as you thought it would be.
Hmm, not sure I agree with this as stated. Perhaps everything has a cause but that's not quite the same thing.

The balloon makes me smile. I think it's a clever and rather gentle dig at some of Trump's less endearing traits. I'd like to see more of them, all over, except I wouldn't want to choke baby seals or whatever happens when balloons go rogue.

Last edited by Minoosh; 8th August 2019 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 8th August 2019, 02:39 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I wonder if, as skeptics, we can examine the data on this balloon.
  • What was the intended result of deploying the balloon in the UK?
  • Was it intended to modify Trump's behavior in some way?
  • Do we know if it did modify Trump's behavior in that way?
  • Do we know if it modified Trump's behavior in some other way?
  • Was it intended to have an effect on other people who saw the balloon?
  • Do we know if it had that effect on those other people?
  • Do we know if it had some other effect on those people?
  • How do the people who deployed the balloon feel about the Trump situation?
  • Better? Worse? About the same?
  • Etc.

It'd be nice to have this data, and then compare it to the data from the Danish deployment. Seems like we could learn useful, practical stuff about protest balloons, UKians, and Denmarkians, with a proper bit of data collection and analysis.

I guess this could all be summarized as "what's the point of the balloon?" But I doubt anyone here has a good, skeptical, data-driven answer to that question.
The point, surely, is to express the opinion that Trump is immature, despite his powerful office. Some folk like to express their opinions.

The balloon is also probably useful in increasing turnout at a demonstration, which again is about expressing opinions regarding Trump.

Shall we apply the same questions to your participation here on the forum? Have you any data to show the effectiveness of your contributions? Or is this a pointless activity?
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Old 8th August 2019, 02:43 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Everything happens for a reason. Even if you're just talking to hear yourself talk, we can still discover whether you are actually hearing yourself, and we can still enquire whether it turned out to be as satisfying as you thought it would be.
And the point of such silly questions would be, what, exactly?

Are you concerned about the efficacy of the protestor's methods? Aiming to help them achieve their goals? Or just taking a rather strange tack to belittling protest generally?

The balloon is intended to convey the message that Trump is immature, in the opinions of the people flying it. I don't know about you, but I believe that I've received that message.

What was the point of the photos of kids molesting a cutout of AOC? To express derision at AOC. That message came through pretty clearly, though it reached a larger audience than intended.
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Old 8th August 2019, 03:25 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I wonder if, as skeptics, we can examine the data on this balloon.
  • What was the intended result of deploying the balloon in the UK?
  • Was it intended to modify Trump's behavior in some way?
  • Do we know if it did modify Trump's behavior in that way?
  • Do we know if it modified Trump's behavior in some other way?
  • Was it intended to have an effect on other people who saw the balloon?
  • Do we know if it had that effect on those other people?
  • Do we know if it had some other effect on those people?
  • How do the people who deployed the balloon feel about the Trump situation?
  • Better? Worse? About the same?
  • Etc.

It'd be nice to have this data, and then compare it to the data from the Danish deployment. Seems like we could learn useful, practical stuff about protest balloons, UKians, and Denmarkians, with a proper bit of data collection and analysis.

I guess this could all be summarized as "what's the point of the balloon?" But I doubt anyone here has a good, skeptical, data-driven answer to that question.
Do you have a good, skeptical, data-driven reason for asking that question? The balloon makes people laugh because they know how ridiculously immature Trump is, and there's no reason to think it has any more impact than other satire. What claim do you think needs skeptical inquiry?
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Old 8th August 2019, 05:31 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I hope the Danish people follow the example of El Paso in how to receive Trump.
We Scandis hate Trump. I expect there will be major demonstratons.
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Old 8th August 2019, 05:45 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I hope the Danish people follow the example of El Paso in how to receive Trump.
Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
We Scandis hate Trump. I expect there will be major demonstratons.
The way I see it El Paso is in the USA so there is a reasonable chance that some people there actually like him.

Denmark is not in the USA. The chance of finding people there (or anywhere else on the planet) who like Trump is quite remote.
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Old 8th August 2019, 11:25 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Everything happens for a reason.

No, not at all! That's prosperity gospel.

”Everything happens for a reason” – and other lies I’ve loved (TED)
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Why I Decided to Stop Saying "This happened for a reason." (TEDx)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th August 2019, 11:58 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I wonder if, as skeptics, we can examine the data on this balloon.
  • What was the intended result of deploying the balloon in the UK?
  • Was it intended to modify Trump's behavior in some way?
  • Do we know if it did modify Trump's behavior in that way?
  • Do we know if it modified Trump's behavior in some other way?
  • Was it intended to have an effect on other people who saw the balloon?
  • Do we know if it had that effect on those other people?
  • Do we know if it had some other effect on those people?
  • How do the people who deployed the balloon feel about the Trump situation?
  • Better? Worse? About the same?
  • Etc.

It'd be nice to have this data, and then compare it to the data from the Danish deployment. Seems like we could learn useful, practical stuff about protest balloons, UKians, and Denmarkians, with a proper bit of data collection and analysis.

I guess this could all be summarized as "what's the point of the balloon?" But I doubt anyone here has a good, skeptical, data-driven answer to that question.
I'd far rather we examine your motivation(s) in the same detail.
  • What was the intended result of you posting in this thread?
  • Was it intended to modify members' behavior in some way?
  • Do we know if it has or will modify members' behavior in that way?
  • Do we know if it modified members' behavior in some other way?
  • Was it intended to have an effect on lurkers who saw the post?
  • Do we know if it had that effect on those lurkers?
  • Do we know if it had some other effect on those lurkers?
  • How do the you feel about the Trump situation?
  • Better? Worse? About the same?
  • Etc.

I'm personally adopting this rigorous list to determine whether I post in any thread. Had Gandhi subscribed to this methodology, we might still have an Empire. We'd also still have black people riding at the backs of buses, segregated movie theaters and restaurants, and countless other things that one protest or another has called attention to.
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Old 8th August 2019, 11:58 PM   #138
dann
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The way I see it El Paso is in the USA so there is a reasonable chance that some people there actually like him.
Denmark is not in the USA. The chance of finding people there (or anywhere else on the planet) who like Trump is quite remote.

Well, not exactly remote. They exist, but there aren't many of them:

Quote:
- Trump is destroying what we call the West, says Uffe Ellemann-Jensen to Berlingske.
- We can no longer count on America, says Per Stig Møller.
Besides, 35% disagree with the statement that they feel "comfortable with the USA led by Donald Trump giving a European NATO country military aid if it is attacked by Russia, for example."
By the way, Trump is also less reliable than his Russian counterpart, president Vladimir Putin.
Four percent answer that Trump is more reliable, 11 percent prefer Putin, and 74 percent don't think there is any difference. The last 11 percent don't know what to answer.
The Danes have low confidence in U.S. president Trump (Fyens, July 26, 2018)
Uffe Ellemann-Jensen and Per Stig Møller are both conservative politicians, and they were both ministers of foreign affairs.

The Danes are divided on Trump's visit: From 'great that he's does it' to 'he can stay where he is' (DR.dk, Aug. 1, 2019)
Apparently, business people are the ones who look forward to the Trump state visit to Denmark.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th August 2019, 03:07 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
He doesn't know this and respect this. If you think he does ... what are you basing this statement on?

Most U.S. politicians will make noise about respecting protesters and different points of view but rarely has Trump expressed anything like that.
Mmm, you must have missed my smiley.

Hans
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Old 9th August 2019, 05:00 AM   #140
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18 months ago, they already did a bit of investigative journalism to find out if any Danish musicians would be willing to entertain Trump, and they managed to find one who is at least willing to consider it:
Richard Ragnvald om musikeres Trump-afbud: Jeg vil spille for alle andre end Enhedslisten (DR.dk, Jan. 19, 2017)

And apparently Trump can bring his buddies Vladimir and Kim as well since he says, "I will play for anybody but Enhedslisten," which is OK since Enhedslisten (Wikipedia) aren't particularly fond of Trump anyway.
The singer and songwriter is famous (very locally, I guess) for rewriting his songs when performing for politicians so he will probably have a Trump version ready of his old song, You are everything for me:
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th August 2019, 06:57 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, not at all! That's prosperity gospel.



”Everything happens for a reason” – and other lies I’ve loved (TED)

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Why I Decided to Stop Saying "This happened for a reason." (TEDx)

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Whoosh.
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Old 9th August 2019, 07:07 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Whoosh.
You can't blame others entirely for your misleading wording. You didn't mean "everything happens for a reason". You meant "people choose to do things for a reason (specifically, a motive)."

In context, your meaning was more or less clear, but it was easy to focus on a common and stupid phrase and miss your point.
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Old 9th August 2019, 07:30 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You can't blame others entirely for your misleading wording. You didn't mean "everything happens for a reason". You meant "people choose to do things for a reason (specifically, a motive)."



In context, your meaning was more or less clear, but it was easy to focus on a common and stupid phrase and miss your point.
That's a choice dann made.
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Old 9th August 2019, 07:50 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's a choice dann made.
And misleading wording was either a choice you made or a failure in clear written communication.

ETA: As far as dann's "choice", it may well have been a misreading due to the words you actually wrote, not a choice. Just as your wording may have been an unintentional failure on your part.

Last edited by phiwum; 9th August 2019 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:26 AM   #145
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It was a misreading I made, but a deliberate one. I don't take this theme (or theprestige's many, many questions) very seriously. I don't know if he seriously expects that somebody is going to answer them for him.
But the TED talks are actually quite good.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th August 2019, 09:30 AM   #146
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It turns out that my choice was neither misleading nor a failure of communication. Dann just chose to misunderstand it (apparently out of personal animus towards me).

Q.E.D.
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Old 9th August 2019, 10:14 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It turns out that my choice was neither misleading nor a failure of communication. Dann just chose to misunderstand it (apparently out of personal animus towards me).

Q.E.D.
That Dann read you correctly doesn't mean that your wording was apt, but whatever.
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Old 9th August 2019, 10:22 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
That Dann read you correctly doesn't mean that your wording was apt, but whatever.
Dann read me incorrectly, though. On purpose.

That's not my fault. Nobody can reasonably inoculate a text against wilful misreading of the text. You're blaming the victim.

Last edited by theprestige; 9th August 2019 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 9th August 2019, 10:27 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Dann read me incorrectly, though. On purpose.

That's not my fault. Nobody can reasonably inoculate a text against wilful misreading of the text. You're blaming the victim.
I've made my comments on your writing explicit. No reason to continue this discussion on this thread. You are welcome to PM me if you want a response.
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Old 9th August 2019, 10:40 AM   #150
theprestige
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Do you have a good, skeptical, data-driven reason for asking that question? The balloon makes people laugh because they know how ridiculously immature Trump is, and there's no reason to think it has any more impact than other satire. What claim do you think needs skeptical inquiry?
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I'd far rather we examine your motivation(s) in the same detail.
  • What was the intended result of you posting in this thread?
  • Was it intended to modify members' behavior in some way?
  • Do we know if it has or will modify members' behavior in that way?
  • Do we know if it modified members' behavior in some other way?
  • Was it intended to have an effect on lurkers who saw the post?
  • Do we know if it had that effect on those lurkers?
  • Do we know if it had some other effect on those lurkers?
  • How do the you feel about the Trump situation?
  • Better? Worse? About the same?
  • Etc.

I'm personally adopting this rigorous list to determine whether I post in any thread. Had Gandhi subscribed to this methodology, we might still have an Empire. We'd also still have black people riding at the backs of buses, segregated movie theaters and restaurants, and countless other things that one protest or another has called attention to.
Whataboutism.
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Old 9th August 2019, 11:03 AM   #151
dann
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Whataboutism.

Not at all. Even though it just might be an attempt to make you waste your time, the same way you would like us to waste ours instead of investigating a little on your own and present us with your answers.
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Old 9th August 2019, 11:12 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Whataboutism.
Baloney. You said there were some questions that skeptics should look at, the first being what was the intent of the balloon. The remaining questions implied claims that the balloon was intended to change something about Trump or his supporters. You got answers to the first question that obviated any need for "data" to answer the others. You don't get credit for scoring a victory for skepticism just because nobody cares to try to support your claims.
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Old 9th August 2019, 11:31 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Baloney. You said there were some questions that skeptics should look at, the first being what was the intent of the balloon. The remaining questions implied claims that the balloon was intended to change something about Trump or his supporters. You got answers to the first question that obviated any need for "data" to answer the others. You don't get credit for scoring a victory for skepticism just because nobody cares to try to support your claims.
My bad. If I said should, I misspoke. Should was never my intent. It seems to be a touchy subject, though, so I'll drop it.

The whataboutism is real, though.
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Old 9th August 2019, 11:40 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My bad. If I said should, I misspoke. Should was never my intent. It seems to be a touchy subject, though, so I'll drop it.

The whataboutism is real, though.
I should have been more careful in characterizing what you said. Looking back, I see that it was, "I wonder if, as skeptics, we can examine the data on this balloon." The answer to that is, sure, go ahead and let us know what you find.
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Old 9th August 2019, 02:07 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My bad. If I said should, I misspoke. Should was never my intent. It seems to be a touchy subject, though, so I'll drop it.

The whataboutism is real, though.
You suggested that proper skeptics should determine the purpose of speech acts (like flying a balloon) and the efficacy of the act. It isn't whataboutism to ask about applying the same to your own speech acts (posting here).

My point in asking about your speech acts was simple. It was to demonstrate that some such acts are intended simply to express one's opinion. You don't expect a measurable payoff from your posts and you have no reason to think that the protestors expect such a thing from flying a balloon. It expresses their opinion of the president in a humorous (YMMV) manner. Perhaps that's all they expect from this act.

Not a tu quoque, then, but using your own acts as an example to support the claim that sometimes, people do things just to express an opinion.

ETA: I realize I didn't mention your speech acts in my posts. I mentioned the recent photos with the AOC cutout. The point otherwise remains.

Last edited by phiwum; 9th August 2019 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 9th August 2019, 02:52 PM   #156
theprestige
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You suggested that proper skeptics should determine the purpose of speech acts (like flying a balloon) and the efficacy of the act.
Where did I suggest should, exactly?
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:21 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Where did I suggest should, exactly?
Stop dodging. It's unbecoming.

Your opening line was that you wonder if, as skeptics, we can examine.... That's implicitly "should", just framed in typical mealy-mouthed JAQ verbiage. You worked up a socratic dialogue in your imagination, to justify your belief that the baby balloon or any Dane protesting is spinning their wheels. No simple action would pass that particular test. You couldn't pass it in analyzing your own motives. So you dodged the question, then went to gaslighting, and now that that didn't work, you're going to "show me where I specifically used whatever word it is that I'm hiding behind".

Try the honest hedonistic answer. Expressing yourself, particularly in opposition to something every fiber of your being disapproves or disagrees with, just feels good! Are you posting Trump Interference and Apologia because you actually think it's going to convert anyone? Do you think there will be institutional or societal changes brought about by several dozen readers on a poorly attended discussion board? Or does it make you feel good to get out there and express yourself in opposition to something you disagree with?

The real question is WTF are you doing in this thread? Fostering the founders' principal of "Give Up, No One's Going to Listen to You, Anyway"? One of the things that America is supposed to have imparted to the rest of the world is the WHOLE of the First Amendment. The whole thing, not just Richard Spencer's right to be a dickwad on the public dime. Freedom of association covers a broad spectrum and you're not proposing, fer shure, that people don't exercise that right... you're just trying to argue them into not doing so because it's futile. As one of our noted posters constantly reminds us, "Time well spent!"
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It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
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Old 11th August 2019, 02:29 PM   #158
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Let me add this to what I wrote in post 141:

Quote:
Only 8% of the Danes and only 11% of conservative voters think that Donald Trump is a good president for the USA.
A distinguished visit that Denmark would rather be without (24Nyt, Aug. 2, 2019)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th August 2019, 05:11 PM   #159
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
<snip>
tl;dr - "You're evil!"

HTH. HAND!
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Old 11th August 2019, 08:09 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
tl;dr - "You're evil!"

HTH. HAND!
That didn't translate into "you're evil". That translated into "no, we're not playing your distraction games, so tell us it is you want to say".

"You're evil"
Evil!
Nazis!
Oh, I won't answer because this question is unworthy of me!



All handy ways of avoiding answering the hard questions. D&D gameplay at Chez theprestige is "Dodging and Distracting".
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It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
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