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Tags donald trump , republican party , republicans

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Old 1st October 2019, 06:12 AM   #1
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Resolved: Trump Era Republicans Are Uniquely Bad in American Political History

I've presented this challenge in a couple of other threads; no one chose to take me up on it. I claim what the title says. For starters, I've never seen an American political party that so brazenly lies about such easily checked facts (and without a hint of evidence to support their position) regarding such matters as: Birtherism, Clinton Murder Spree, Climate Change, and Millions of Illegal Voters, to name but a few.

If you disagree, I challenge you to find me a comparable example of such blatant disregard for the Truth.
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Old 1st October 2019, 06:23 AM   #2
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"Plenty of Presidents have declared war... but never on reality. You got to admit that's kind of new." - Bill Maher.

But yes I agree, for all the good it's going to make to the Trumpers.

In completely neutral terms, the first President elected with zero prior elected or very high military office experience. We kid about Reagan being an actor or Jimmy Carter being a peanut farmer but at least they did stuff in between that and the highest office of a global superpower. Trump went right from getting Stone Cold Stunnered at Wrestlemania and hosting the Apprentice to POTUS.
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Old 1st October 2019, 06:48 AM   #3
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Counter examples: (note, I am a Libertarian, so I don't give a **** about which party)
  • Cook County democrats
  • Boss Tweed machine
  • Pro-slavery Democrats pre-civil war
  • Know-Nothing Party
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Old 1st October 2019, 06:53 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Counter examples: (note, I am a Libertarian, so I don't give a **** about which party)
  • Cook County democrats
  • Boss Tweed machine
  • Pro-slavery Democrats pre-civil war
  • Know-Nothing Party
I can't help but feel when all your examples either existed or were only relevant (since yes I know the Cook County Democrats technically still exist) before the Moon Landings this is, at best, a "technically correct" counter.
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Old 1st October 2019, 06:57 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I can't help but feel when all your examples either existed or were only relevant (since yes I know the Cook County Democrats technically still exist) before the Moon Landings this is, at best, a "technically correct" counter.
I mean, if we're asking the question about "uniquely bad in American Political History" then surely we're comparing to all of American Political History, not just the last 50 years.
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Old 1st October 2019, 06:58 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I can't help but feel when all your examples either existed or were only relevant (since yes I know the Cook County Democrats technically still exist) before the Moon Landings this is, at best, a "technically correct" counter.
Did not Solomon send his minister Hephaz unto the Gilabites and Lamtakelites? That's a precedent so none of this is new so let's lay off Trump and let him continue his perfect phone calls.
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Old 1st October 2019, 07:00 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I mean, if we're asking the question about "uniquely bad in American Political History" then surely we're comparing to all of American Political History, not just the last 50 years.
Yeah, but post WW2 America is radically different from the 75% farmer, semi-literate, fourth-grade educated America of prior centuries.
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Old 1st October 2019, 07:04 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yeah, but post WW2 America is radically different from the 75% farmer, semi-literate, fourth-grade educated America of prior centuries.
I don't disagree, but OP specifically set the period of comparison as the total of American Political History. Being uniquely bad for the last 50 or 70 years is pretty bad and is a much easier argument to make.

You can't say "I'm the most X in the world!" and then when challeneged that someone in another country is more X than you say "But that country is really different!". The scope of the claim is what it is.
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Old 1st October 2019, 07:05 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yeah, but post WW2 America is radically different from the 75% farmer, semi-literate, fourth-grade educated America of prior centuries.
Is it, though?
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Old 1st October 2019, 07:05 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I mean, if we're asking the question about "uniquely bad in American Political History" then surely we're comparing to all of American Political History, not just the last 50 years.
Again, "technically correct."
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Old 1st October 2019, 07:08 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again, "technically correct."
I'm not seeing "last 50 years" or "moon landings" in the OP.
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Old 1st October 2019, 07:08 AM   #12
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There is a major flaw in the idea of grading anyone contemporary by the standards of the last 200 years.

It is perfectly correct to judge the behavior of Republicans by the standards of Today.
Which makes them perfect scum.
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Old 1st October 2019, 07:09 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
There is a major flaw in the idea of grading anyone contemporary by the standards of the last 200 years.

It is perfectly correct to judge the behavior of Republicans by the standards of Today.
Which makes them perfect scum.
I don't disagree with you. And that's not the OP.
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Old 1st October 2019, 07:10 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Is it, though?
Yes. We're past the days where a large portion of the poulation had to sign things by making an X. I realize that it's human nature to exaggerate the negative but since this thread does touch upon actual history let's keep some perspective. My FOX News watching, uncritical thinker mom may not be a brilliantly sagacious intellectual but she's light years ahead of eighteenth century dirt farmers who died of old age in their forties convinced the world was flat.
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Old 1st October 2019, 07:12 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I'm not seeing "last 50 years" or "moon landings" in the OP.
Okay. I've already awarded the "Technically correct" trophy for this thread and we only get one made for each thread. I can certainly get you a "Technically correct" certificate printed up though, if you don't mind buying the frame yourself.
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Old 1st October 2019, 07:13 AM   #16
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The idea that just because it wasn't literally spelled out that the comparison being made has to take place in roughly similar social/political environments means it wasn't implied is just nitpicking, hairsplitting, stalling nonsense.
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Old 1st October 2019, 07:14 AM   #17
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There has never been a POTUS who was a rank conspiracy theorist, churning them out on the daily.

There has never been a POTUS who was such a brazen racist/bigot (applying the norms of the times)

There has never been a POTUS who constantly lies about matters big and small, to such an extent that they have declared a war on reality.

There has never been a POTUS who was such a brazen narcissist, to such an extreme that may as well be a surreal comedy.

There has never been a POTUS who buddied up with dictator thugs, predicated on dismissing the facts provided be his own team.

There has never been a POTUS who buddied up with dictator thugs while at the same time alienating long-standing allies.

There has never been a POTUS who encouraged his followers to commit violence against fellow citizens behaving lawfully.

There has never been a POTUS who presents themselves to the world as an infant -- constantly.

There has never been a POTUS so woefully uninformed on the wide array of topics that POTUSes deal wth.

There has never been a POTUS who received the depth and breadth of the blowback from their own party. (Glibly hand-waved away as "never Trumpers")

This is for sure...! Never has one individual embodied so many obnoxious, unhinged, anti-democratic characteristics. Claiming that this freak show is business as usual is flat out delusional.

(Every time I crank out a different version of this list, I leave off a few goodies.)
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Old 1st October 2019, 07:17 AM   #18
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there are many ways in which the Trump Presidency is unique in US history.
The way in which Republicans have abdicated their Constitutional obligations of oversight is one of them.
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Old 1st October 2019, 07:33 AM   #19
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You could make a case that Trump is a uniquely bad President and I won’t even argue with you. The OP is saying that the modern GOP as a whole is uniquely bad in American History and that simply isn’t true.
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Old 1st October 2019, 07:34 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay. I've already awarded the "Technically correct" trophy for this thread and we only get one made for each thread. I can certainly get you a "Technically correct" certificate printed up though, if you don't mind buying the frame yourself.
Have a glorious day.
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Old 1st October 2019, 07:45 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
In completely neutral terms, the first President elected with zero prior elected or very high military office experience. We kid about Reagan being an actor or Jimmy Carter being a peanut farmer but at least they did stuff in between that and the highest office of a global superpower. Trump went right from getting Stone Cold Stunnered at Wrestlemania and hosting the Apprentice to POTUS.

Remember when a State Senator turned US Senator being elected President was terrible, because he didn't have sufficient political experience to do the job? I wonder what changed?
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Old 1st October 2019, 07:46 AM   #22
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When your doctor asks you for medical history do you start at the Big Bang creating the individual carbon atoms that would one day be you and get huffy and pissy when they go "No it's fine you can skip ahead to when your symptoms started."

Not to mention that most things being mentioned ARE totally unique, not just modernly unique.
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Old 1st October 2019, 07:49 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Remember when a State Senator turned US Senator being elected President was terrible, because he didn't have sufficient political experience to do the job? I wonder what changed?
The color of his skin, from brown to orange.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:02 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Counter examples: (note, I am a Libertarian, so I don't give a **** about which party)
  • Cook County democrats
  • Boss Tweed machine
  • Pro-slavery Democrats pre-civil war
  • Know-Nothing Party

Could you be more specific? For example, I'm thinking of the brazenness of a president having his own son attempting collusion with Russians in his own Trump Tower and then blatantly lying by saying that does not constitute attempted collusion.

I've never seen such a significantly large group as Trump's base just repeatedly lie and contradict easily observed reality.

Let's also not forget that none of these four examples had the benefit of 24/7 social media to swamp the narrative with their lies, either. That by itself contributes to the uniqueness.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:06 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You could make a case that Trump is a uniquely bad President and I won’t even argue with you. The OP is saying that the modern GOP as a whole is uniquely bad in American History and that simply isn’t true.

You probably ought to, you know, provide support for your otherwise empty claim.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:09 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again, "technically correct."
No, in this case he's actually correct. The claim is regarding American political history. You can argue that the last 50 years would be a more interesting comparison, but that's not the OP's claim.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:31 AM   #27
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The internet allows plausible (at least for them) deniability, ironically.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:32 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, in this case he's actually correct. The claim is regarding American political history. You can argue that the last 50 years would be a more interesting comparison, but that's not the OP's claim.
Actually, I've addressed LSSBB's complaint and I have yet to hear back from him.

I am standing by my original claim. And please be sure to note: Our 24/7 social media saturation plays a large role. You're gonna have a hell of a time finding that mirrored in our past.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:43 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yes. We're past the days where a large portion of the poulation had to sign things by making an X. I realize that it's human nature to exaggerate the negative but since this thread does touch upon actual history let's keep some perspective. My FOX News watching, uncritical thinker mom may not be a brilliantly sagacious intellectual but she's light years ahead of eighteenth century dirt farmers who died of old age in their forties convinced the world was flat.
Dammit man that was a joke. Just run with it.
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Old 1st October 2019, 08:48 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
When your doctor asks you for medical history do you start at the Big Bang creating the individual carbon atoms that would one day be you and get huffy and pissy when they go "No it's fine you can skip ahead to when your symptoms started."
No because he's asking for your medical history, not the universe's.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:03 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yeah, but post WW2 America is radically different from the 75% farmer, semi-literate, fourth-grade educated America of prior centuries.
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Is it, though?
Yeah, all you need to do is watch a few "man on the street" interviews and you'll long for the days of a good solid Forth Grade Education.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:06 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Actually, I've addressed LSSBB's complaint and I have yet to hear back from him.

I am standing by my original claim. And please be sure to note: Our 24/7 social media saturation plays a large role. You're gonna have a hell of a time finding that mirrored in our past.
My response is I don't care, because I perceive it as a pointless argument over a poorly constructed OP.

Have a glorious day.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:21 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Counter examples: (note, I am a Libertarian, so I don't give a **** about which party)
  • Cook County democrats
  • Boss Tweed machine
  • Pro-slavery Democrats pre-civil war
  • Know-Nothing Party
Minor point:

The opening point talked about how modern day republicans dismiss "easily checked facts".

Now, something like slavery was a moral failing on the part of the United States (and to democrats who supported it). But supporting something like slavery doesn't qualify as being an "easily checked fact".
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I'm not seeing "last 50 years" or "moon landings" in the OP.
No, you're not seeing "moon landings" in the OP. But you are seeing 'birtherism', and the 'clinton murder spree' in the OP. Those are both conspiracy theories... they are easily refuted and do not stand up to even basic scrutiny. But they are both spread by either Trump himself or his supporters.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:39 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
My response is I don't care, because I perceive it as a pointless argument over a poorly constructed OP.

Have a glorious day.
I didn't make it for you, but you're welcome to your opinion. If you haven't noticed, people
Mod Warning<SNIP> Edit for rule 12.
Posted By:zooterkin
defend Trump by claiming, "But he's not uniquely bad!" I think that deserves a response. You can disagree, but I'm a bit nonplussed at why you feel it necessary to actually whine about it. If you can't defend your position I'd have more respect if you simply man up and say so.

But whatever turns you on, bro!

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Old 1st October 2019, 09:40 AM   #35
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Mod Warning<SNIP>
Edit for rule 12.
Posted By:zooterkin

Last edited by zooterkin; 2nd October 2019 at 02:37 AM.
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Old 1st October 2019, 09:52 AM   #36
Venom
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Mod Warning<SNIP>
Edit for rule 12.
Posted By:zooterkin
You started this thread just 3 hours ago, mate. Relax.

Last edited by zooterkin; 2nd October 2019 at 02:38 AM.
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Old 1st October 2019, 10:09 AM   #37
Beerina
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Did not Solomon send his minister Hephaz unto the Gilabites and Lamtakelites?

He wanted to rip a baby in half to shock its mother!
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The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?
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Old 1st October 2019, 10:12 AM   #38
LSSBB
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Mod Warning<SNIP>
Edit for rule 12.
Posted By:zooterkin
Maybe you need to change the lure or bait.
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Last edited by zooterkin; 2nd October 2019 at 02:38 AM.
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Old 1st October 2019, 10:16 AM   #39
Cabbage
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
You started this thread just 3 hours ago, mate. Relax.
It's been much longer than that (by well over a week) when I brought this up in a couple of other threads---No Response there, either. Just pointing out a pattern and, yes, rubbing it in:
Mod Warning<SNIP>
Edit for rule 12.
Posted By:zooterkin

Last edited by zooterkin; 2nd October 2019 at 02:38 AM.
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Old 1st October 2019, 10:17 AM   #40
portlandatheist
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The Anti-Masonic Party
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Masonic_Party
The Green Party for their 9/11 conspiracy theories and other forms of science denialism(GMOs)
Lots of various crazy political movements in US history:
The Paranoid Style in American Politics by Richard Hofstadter
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