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Tags donald trump , republican party , republicans

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Old 2nd October 2019, 06:04 AM   #81
Hellbound
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You know, this entire line of argument is ridiculous.

I don't have to have the first flat tire ever for it to ruin my trip.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 06:07 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
You know, this entire line of argument is ridiculous.
Because it's not an argument and everyone knows it. Nobody it's used against thinks it's an argument and nobody who uses it really believes it is.

It's a "scorch the argumentative Earth instead of losing the argument" tactic.

It's just the political discussion version of "Well prove you aren't a brain in a jar" the Woo Slingers pull.

It's just another sad variation of "I'd rather nobody be right about anything then be wrong about this one thing."
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Old 2nd October 2019, 06:39 AM   #83
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
You know, this entire line of argument is ridiculous.

I don't have to have the first flat tire ever for it to ruin my trip.
While analogies are problematic, it should be said that flat tires generally don't ruin trips. Unless you have a really bad attitude and every little setback or surprise causes a temper tantrum and a constant refrain of "this trip is ruined!"
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Old 2nd October 2019, 06:47 AM   #84
Hellbound
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
While analogies are problematic, it should be said that flat tires generally don't ruin trips. Unless you have a really bad attitude and every little setback or surprise causes a temper tantrum and a constant refrain of "this trip is ruined!"
Couldn't resist, could you? Anything to distract from any substantive point? Let's nitpick the analogy instead of discuss the point that literally everyone else can understand?

You're right, none of the numerous problems are unique, so let's just sit in our hand baskets and smile. No complaints, no point in making things better because this isn't unique.

Or if that's not it, what is the point of this constant refrain of (to paraphrase) just shut up and take it you insist on? It's a pointless argument whether true or false, yet seems to be pretty much the only thing brought to the table anymore.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 06:49 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Couldn't resist, could you? Anything to distract from any substantive point? Let's nitpick the analogy instead of discuss the point that literally everyone else can understand?
A self-fulfilling prophecy: theprestige really doesn't like analogies so he nitpicks them to death so he can later say that analogies never work.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 06:59 AM   #86
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Parties are complex entities with large membership. No defined parameters, cherry-pick this, cherry-pick that -- it's a fool's errand. On the other hand, there have only been 44 POTUSes. It's feasible to look back and reasonably determine certain things, especially if we focus on the electronic media age. What with the vagueness of the challenge and Cabbage's vacation, I hope y'all don't mind if I focus on Trump.

Certain of my claims are too fuzzy to elevate to a challenge, my confidence notwithstanding. But these claims seem to me like low-hanging fruit. (In terms of researchability.)

Originally Posted by varwoche;12839837 numbers added
(1) There has never been a POTUS who was a rank conspiracy theorist, churning them out on the daily.

(2) There has never been a POTUS who was such a brazen racist/bigot (applying the norms of the times)

(3) There has never been a POTUS who constantly lies about matters big and small, to such an extent that they have declared a war on reality.

(4) There has never been a POTUS who was such a brazen narcissist, to such an extreme that may as well be a surreal comedy.

(5) There has never been a POTUS who buddied up with dictator thugs, while dismissing damning facts provided by his own team and while alienating allies. [edit out redundancy]

(6) There has never been a POTUS who encouraged his followers to commit violence against fellow citizens behaving lawfully.

(7) There has never been a POTUS who presents themselves to the world as an infant -- constantly.

(8) There has never been a POTUS so woefully uninformed on the wide array of topics that POTUSes deal wth.

(9) There has never been a POTUS who received the depth and breadth of the blowback from their own party. (Glibly hand-waved away as "never Trumpers")

This is for sure...! Never has one individual embodied so many obnoxious, unhinged, anti-democratic characteristics. Claiming that this freak show is business as usual is flat out delusional.

(Every time I crank out a different version of this list, I leave off a few goodies.)
If anyone wishes to discuss any one of these, I'm game but busy. I'll respond as soon as I can.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 07:00 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
A self-fulfilling prophecy: theprestige really doesn't like analogies so he nitpicks them to death so he can later say that analogies never work.
Yep, and start another pedant-filled nitpick of analogies that distracts from any useful discussion.

A flat tire needs to be fixed. That was the point. Yet let's focus on wording of a ruined trip and still beat this to death as if it meant anything useful.

It's annoyingly irrelevant, yet it's everywhere over here.

Done ranting, carry on all.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 07:19 AM   #88
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Well, about Boss Tweed: Other city machines might give a widow a bag of flour and a bushel of coal. Tweed's fellahs would give her a job sweeping floors at city hall.

About the Know Nothings: Hell's afire, they're still with us.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 07:23 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Oh, you think arguments are being made in this thread?
Yes, you made one. And it was terrible. The reason it is terrible is for the reason I already provided.

Quote:
That's not what I said. I said:
Yes, I'm aware of what you said.

And this:
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You could make a case that Trump is a uniquely bad President and I won’t even argue with you.
... is literally a concession.

Quote:
Which means that I wouldn't be interested in arguing about how bad Trump is; he's bad enough for me to not be a big fan. But I would be interested in debating about whether or not the current GOP as a whole is uniquely bad in history because I don't think it's true. I am, however, open to good arguments that might convince me otherwise. Unfortunately, that debate hasn't even gotten started here.
Honestly, I don't think you are open to good arguments. I think you're more interested in pushing an agenda.

Quote:
It hasn't even been established that the GOP is the getaway driver. Do that first.
And this pretty much proves my point.

You are demanding that we "establish" something that is common knowledge and happening right out in the open, i.e. the GOP enabling Trump by either carrying his water or turning a blind eye.

This is the same disingenuous game conservatives on this forum and elsewhere continue to play.

Just keep denying and make everyone else prove the same established facts over and over.

It's a method that bogs down the conversation and guarantees it can never more forward.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 07:24 AM   #90
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Not uniquely - and 1850's Democrats were way worse. But obviously this current bunch is totally disgusting and shamelessly corrupt.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 07:33 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
A self-fulfilling prophecy: theprestige really doesn't like analogies so he nitpicks them to death so he can later say that analogies never work.
It's not just me. Everybody here nitpick analogies and rejects them. The only ones who accept analogies are those who were already convinced without the analogy.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 07:42 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not just me. Everybody here nitpick analogies and rejects them.
You're unique in your stance on analogies, though. The others don't claim that analogies never work, so my comment, in fact, only applies to you.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 07:49 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not just me. Everybody here nitpick analogies and rejects them. The only ones who accept analogies are those who were already convinced without the analogy.
Analogies are like Kate Middleton holding a basket of tortoises.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 07:53 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Analogies are like Kate Middleton holding a basket of tortoises.
The basket's tortoises all the way down.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 07:58 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The basket's tortoises all the way down.
I was setting up an opening for a "snappy dresser" joke. Sometimes I feel like you people don't appreciate the royal family.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 08:13 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I was setting up an opening for a "snappy dresser" joke. Sometimes I feel like you people don't appreciate the royal family.
Don't be upset. Some of us just take a while to come out of our shell.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 08:29 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Couldn't resist, could you? Anything to distract from any substantive point? Let's nitpick the analogy instead of discuss the point that literally everyone else can understand?
If you had a substantive point, you wouldn't need to appeal to a flat tire analogy. You could simply make your substantive point in terms of the thing itself.

Anyway, if I understand the gist of your analogy, you're arguing that Trump/the GOP isn't uniquely bad at this point in history, but they could still do with some fixing. Is that correct?

If it is, then you and I are probably in almost perfect agreement here. Probably we only disagree on the exact form the fix should take.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 08:30 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you had a substantive point, you wouldn't need to appeal to a flat tire analogy. You could simply make your substantive point in terms of the thing itself.

Anyway, if I understand the gist of your analogy, you're arguing that Trump/the GOP isn't uniquely bad at this point in history, but they could still do with some fixing. Is that correct?

If it is, then you and I are probably in almost perfect agreement here. Probably we only disagree on the exact form the fix should take.
An airtight rubber patch glued in the right place would solve a great many problems. See? The analogy works!
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Old 2nd October 2019, 08:31 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You're unique in your stance on analogies, though. The others don't claim that analogies never work, so my comment, in fact, only applies to you.
My "stance" is that I'm pointing out that everybody behaves badly around analogies, pretty much guaranteeing they'll never work, and yet all quietly pretending that arguments by analogy are actually useful. Drop the pretense and stop wasting everybody's time with analogies that aren't going to work anyway, is what I say.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 08:34 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
An airtight rubber patch glued in the right place would solve a great many problems. See? The analogy works!
Either you're literally advocating murder, or you're sending up the original argument for comedic purposes.

Either way, the analogy seems to be failing in your hands. Q.E.D.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 08:39 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you had a substantive point, you wouldn't need to appeal to a flat tire analogy. You could simply make your substantive point in terms of the thing itself.

Anyway, if I understand the gist of your analogy, you're arguing that Trump/the GOP isn't uniquely bad at this point in history, but they could still do with some fixing. Is that correct?

If it is, then you and I are probably in almost perfect agreement here. Probably we only disagree on the exact form the fix should take.
Which is fine, yet the entire argument seems to be that if it isn't uniquely bad, just sit back and wait.

Analogies are to expand upon relevant aspects of a point. Analogies are not proof, they're used to provide clarity to the point being made, which that did rather well to everyone except you. Just because a flat tire isn't unique doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Just because it's not the end of the world doesn't mean it can be ignored. If it's not fixed, it can lead to more severe problems.

Likewise the current situation.

Yet with every new issue this argument is brought up that it's "business as usual", nothing to worry about, just let it keep going. it'll be fine, no need to be alarmed or take any action other than the usual. The flat tire is fine until we're driving on the rim, then we can take action.

For someone who discards analogies as being unnecessary, you focus the majority of effort on similarly unnecessary points. Instead of arguing about the uniqueness, argue about the thing that needs to be done. The uniqueness or not is immaterial and irrelevant.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 08:40 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My "stance" is that I'm pointing out that everybody behaves badly around analogies, pretty much guaranteeing they'll never work, and yet all quietly pretending that arguments by analogy are actually useful. Drop the pretense and stop wasting everybody's time with analogies that aren't going to work anyway, is what I say.
If you treat an analogy as an argument, instead of an illustration, then the problem isn't in using analogies.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 08:44 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Either you're literally advocating murder, or you're sending up the original argument for comedic purposes.

Either way, the analogy seems to be failing in your hands. Q.E.D.
How would an analogy be in someone's hands? It's not a physical object. Perhaps you could explain your meaning using some kind of comparison to something else? There's a word for that, I can't quite recall it, it's on the tip of my tongue like a tiny amount of something I'm close to identifying by taste but haven't yet.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 09:01 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My "stance" is that I'm pointing out that everybody behaves badly around analogies, pretty much guaranteeing they'll never work, and yet all quietly pretending that arguments by analogy are actually useful. Drop the pretense and stop wasting everybody's time with analogies that aren't going to work anyway, is what I say.
Analogies are useful. It's just that everybody's too stupid to accept other people's analogies.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 09:06 AM   #105
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Another thread "bobbed." And no Bob in sight. Huh.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 10:09 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Analogies are useful. It's just that everybody's too stupid to accept other people's analogies. : )
I wouldn't say stupid, but otherwise, yes, that's the gist of it.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 10:28 AM   #107
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This story on CNN.com tells all you need to know about a significant portion of the current crop of Republicans:

Originally Posted by CNN
In a new national Monmouth University poll just four in 10 self-identified Republicans believe that Trump mentioned Biden in his call with Zelensky.
"Mentioned". Over half don't even believe that Biden was mentioned in the phone call. The party of ignorance. The party of stick your fingers in your ears and go la la la la la la la la.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 11:03 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
And this:


... is literally a concession.
For it to be a concession I would have had to have had a different opinion beforehand. In this case, it's simply an expression of disinterest in the topic, "Trump is a uniquely bad President," because I already think he's bad enough to get rid of.
Quote:
Honestly, I don't think you are open to good arguments. I think you're more interested in pushing an agenda.
And what agenda do you think I'm trying to push?

As I said, give me a good argument and I'm open to it. That hasn't happened yet.

Quote:
And this pretty much proves my point.

You are demanding that we "establish" something that is common knowledge and happening right out in the open, i.e. the GOP enabling Trump by either carrying his water or turning a blind eye.
Wrong. I am rejecting appeals to "common knowledge," from the get-go. If it's common knowledge, it should be quite easy to support. Take birtherism. If it's so obvious that the GOP as a party is espousing this CT, it should be quite easy to show where the GOP espoused it. The problem with the OP is that it took some very Trumpian views (birtherism, illegal voters, etc) and used them to brand the party as a whole. That's what I want to see some support for.

Quote:
This is the same disingenuous game conservatives on this forum and elsewhere continue to play.

Just keep denying and make everyone else prove the same established facts over and over.
Yes . . .that game is one side gets to argue by assertion (the "common knowledge" argument) and the other side has to provide pristine sources for anything they say.

But we can easily stop this game. Let's hold each other to the same standards and try to find some common ground in respect.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 11:11 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
How would an analogy be in someone's hands? It's not a physical object. Perhaps you could explain your meaning using some kind of comparison to something else? There's a word for that, I can't quite recall it, it's on the tip of my tongue like a tiny amount of something I'm close to identifying by taste but haven't yet.
Metaphor. The word you're looking for is metaphor.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 11:16 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's not just me. Everybody here nitpick analogies and rejects them. The only ones who accept analogies are those who were already convinced without the analogy.
Do you think Trump is like a master baker?
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Old 2nd October 2019, 11:17 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
Do you think Trump is like a master baker?
I'd rather not speculate on soggy bottoms there.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 11:20 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Yes . . .that game is one side gets to argue by assertion (the "common knowledge" argument) and the other side has to provide pristine sources for anything they say.

It's only an argument by assertion if you've been living under a rock for the last ten years.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 12:00 PM   #113
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
Do you think Trump is like a master baker?
Yes.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 12:04 PM   #114
Belz...
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Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
Do you think Trump is like a master baker?
More like master faker.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 12:37 PM   #115
xjx388
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Which is fine, yet the entire argument seems to be that if it isn't uniquely bad, just sit back and wait.
I don't think anyone has said, "just sit back and wait." Indeed, I support an impeachment inquiry and wonder what the hell took so long. What I do push back against is the FUD that seems rampant, as if the Trump era is an existential crisis for the US -nay, the world! That's a bit much. I also push back against the whole appeal to silence that happens a lot: If the GOP/conservatives don't say what the other side thinks they should say, the whole party is enablers/racists/yadda yadda.

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Analogies are to expand upon relevant aspects of a point. Analogies are not proof, they're used to provide clarity to the point being made, which that did rather well to everyone except you. Just because a flat tire isn't unique doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Just because it's not the end of the world doesn't mean it can be ignored. If it's not fixed, it can lead to more severe problems.
The nation doesn't have a flat tire, though. The government is operating. It may not be operating to your liking but so what?

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Likewise the current situation.

Yet with every new issue this argument is brought up that it's "business as usual", nothing to worry about, just let it keep going. it'll be fine, no need to be alarmed or take any action other than the usual. The flat tire is fine until we're driving on the rim, then we can take action.

For someone who discards analogies as being unnecessary, you focus the majority of effort on similarly unnecessary points. Instead of arguing about the uniqueness, argue about the thing that needs to be done. The uniqueness or not is immaterial and irrelevant.
Well, it's not immaterial or irrelevant to this thread -it's the very point. And those things are being discussed in other threads.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 02:23 PM   #116
autumn1971
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The Democrats had them when they were segregating and lynching.
Well, now that they’re only segregating and encouraging lynching we can all sleep peacefully
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Old 2nd October 2019, 02:31 PM   #117
xjx388
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
It's only an argument by assertion if you've been living under a rock for the last ten years.
"The GOP is uniquely bad," is an assertion. "The GOP espouses birtherism," is an assertion. In the former case, an assertion is all it can ever be, for reasons discussed by others in this thread. In the latter, an appeal to "common knowledge," is not appropriate. In fact, it's widely-known (as long as we are indulging "common knowledge" arguments) that the existing rumors of his supposed Kenyan birth were circulated by members of Hillary Clinton's campaign and considered as ammo to use against him. There were also plenty of people on that bandwagon that weren't members of the GOP so you can't even say this is a uniquely republican thing -more a whackadoodle thing. Sure, you can argue that the Tea Party republicans were big on this, but they are hardly representative of the GOP as a whole.

Similar for Trump's claims of "Illegal voting;" that's a Trump thing not a GOP-as-a-whole thing.

I've also been told that the GOP is "carrying his water" and enabling him. That's another one of those assertions that will be very hard to back up. Paul Ryan stepped down because of Trump and many GOP congresscritters are retiring in his wake. They may not want to impeach him because of the damage it will do to the party as a whole but that certainly does not imply that the GOP supports, buys into or otherwise enables Trump's nonsense.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 03:00 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Well, about Boss Tweed: Other city machines might give a widow a bag of flour and a bushel of coal. Tweed's fellahs would give her a job sweeping floors at city hall.

About the Know Nothings: Hell's afire, they're still with us.

Boss Tweed and Know Nothings in one post.

Makes me want to put on my "Gangs Of New York" DVD again, since both play a major role in that excellent film.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 03:00 PM   #119
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
For it to be a concession I would have had to have had a different opinion beforehand. In this case, it's simply an expression of disinterest in the topic, "Trump is a uniquely bad President," because I already think he's bad enough to get rid of.
I really don't like it when arguments devolve into definitional pedantry, but dude... seriously?
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Definition of concession
1a: the act or an instance of conceding (as by granting something as a right, accepting something as true, or acknowledging defeat)
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/concession

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And what agenda do you think I'm trying to push?
The same one you were pushing seven years ago when you insisted over the course of several pages that a downward trend in unemployment was actually an upward trend: Defend all things Republican and attack all things Democrat, facts and reality be damned.

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As I said, give me a good argument and I'm open to it. That hasn't happened yet.
Your idea of a good argument is what someone with the same ideology as yours posts on their blog.

Raise your standards, and then maybe we can have an actual discussion.

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Wrong. I am rejecting appeals to "common knowledge," from the get-go. If it's common knowledge, it should be quite easy to support. Take birtherism. If it's so obvious that the GOP as a party is espousing this CT, it should be quite easy to show where the GOP espoused it. The problem with the OP is that it took some very Trumpian views (birtherism, illegal voters, etc) and used them to brand the party as a whole. That's what I want to see some support for.
Trump is the GOP, whether you want to accept it or not. The GOP gave him the nomination. The GOP elected him President. The GOP does his bidding.

You want to separate Trump from the GOP? Let me know when they make any real effort to hold him accountable.

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Yes . . .that game is one side gets to argue by assertion (the "common knowledge" argument) and the other side has to provide pristine sources for anything they say.
It's not about sides, but rather the nature of the claim.

If someone tells me it's raining, I probably don't need to have that confirmed with additional data.

If someone tells me it's raining cocktail wieners, I might need to take a look for myself.

That you want to start from the disingenuous position of feigning ignorance about how far the GOP has bent over backwards to enable Trump and insist that we "prove" it to you is silly.

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But we can easily stop this game. Let's hold each other to the same standards and try to find some common ground in respect.
Well, you haven't been held to any special standard and respect needs to be earned.
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Old 2nd October 2019, 04:37 PM   #120
luchog
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
" In fact, it's widely-known (as long as we are indulging "common knowledge" arguments) that the existing rumors of his supposed Kenyan birth were circulated by members of Hillary Clinton's campaign and considered as ammo to use against him. There were also plenty of people on that bandwagon that weren't members of the GOP so you can't even say this is a uniquely republican thing -more a whackadoodle thing. Sure, you can argue that the Tea Party republicans were big on this, but they are hardly representative of the GOP as a whole.

Oh well, since we're dragging conspiracy theories into this... No, sorry, I'm not interested in going down that BS rabbit hole. The source of the rumour was GOP candidate Andy Martin, a big fan of numerous conspiracy theories; and the one Clinton campaign staffer who circulated it was subsequently fired. Guess who was the biggest promoter of Birtherism? Oh that's right, Donald Trump and the mainstream GOP.

So, clearly you have nothing but BS conspiracy theories and half-assed attempts at whataboutism to contribute, and I can safely ignore you from here on out. Thanks for that.
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