ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 2020 elections , hillary clinton , presidential candidates , Russia conspiracies , Tulsi Gabbard

Reply
Old 22nd October 2019, 03:48 PM   #361
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,299
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I'm pretty convinced that the accusation was mostly driven by spite. Clinton is still pissed that Gabbard endorsed Bernie in 2016. This doesn't discount the possibility of russian trolls floating internet ads and memes in support of Gabbards, they might be just to cause trouble. That's kind of what they do.
Why would Hillary Clinton even care about what Tulsi Gabbard did? Gabbard's basically a nobody compared to even newcomers like Raps. Ocasio-Cortez, Omar, and the like.

Quote:
As to the meaning of "Asset" am I the only one who thinks its vague enough to mean either a witting or unwitting asset? Thus, its use by Hillary is....not great but vague enough, I'm not going to say she mean "literally working for the Russians"?
She never called Gabbard an asset, so that's of no relevance. She called Jill Stein an asset, probably because of the dinner table she shared with Putin, her recount fundraiser that went nowhere, and so forth.

I've thought the same, and so did many others.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 03:54 PM   #362
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,299
Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Right, he's the former Grand Wizard of the Klu Klux Klan. My bad! Nowadays he's mostly described as a neo-nazi, anti-semitic conspiracy theorist.
I wouldn't even say that earning praise from him alone is necessarily a mark of poor character. Duke's a fringe character, and ordinarily I'd dismiss praise from him based on sketchy connections.

But there's also Richard Spencer, and Steve Bannon, and again her multiple appearances on Tucker Carlson's White Power Hour. That last one, in particular, makes me very cautious. Quite a few of these so-called progressives are annoyingly cozy with white nationalists because "they also hate war" or some such. As examples, Glenn Greenwald and Jimmy Dore. This sort of crap is toxic for democrats, since their strongest supporters are black and Jewish voters, both of whom have strong reasons to recoil from white nationalists and their supporters.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 03:57 PM   #363
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,035
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
You forgot "humble to a fault"
Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good and letting themselves be paralyzed are legitimate faults of the Dems. That's not a humble brag.

But the Dems are so much better by every metric than the GOP, of course those are better faults than those of the latter. Did you think I would care that you took offense? I'll openly say that currently the GOP and their supporters are actively disdainful of even basic civic duty. I'm not going to be shamed that you think those flaws aren't faulty enough.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 04:00 PM   #364
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,035
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I wouldn't even say that earning praise from him alone is necessarily a mark of poor character. Duke's a fringe character, and ordinarily I'd dismiss praise from him based on sketchy connections.

But there's also Richard Spencer, and Steve Bannon, and again her multiple appearances on Tucker Carlson's White Power Hour. That last one, in particular, makes me very cautious. Quite a few of these so-called progressives are annoyingly cozy with white nationalists because "they also hate war" or some such. As examples, Glenn Greenwald and Jimmy Dore. This sort of crap is toxic for democrats, since their strongest supporters are black and Jewish voters, both of whom have strong reasons to recoil from white nationalists and their supporters.
She cancelled an event almost last minute to go on Carlson too.

She just does not act like someone trying to get the Democratic nomination. Her politics don't have a coherent argument. Note that even the 'hate war' thing isn't even complete because she's not against the continued use of military force in the places she hasn't deemed 'regime change wars', even though she labels some things that demonstrably aren't as the latter.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 04:28 PM   #365
Scopedog
Muse
 
Scopedog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 568
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
She never called Gabbard an asset, so that's of no relevance.

Originally Posted by Hillary Clinton
"I'm not making any predictions, but I think they've got their eye on somebody who is currently in the Democratic primary and are grooming her to be the third-party candidate. She's the favorite of the Russians. They have a bunch of sites and bots and other ways of supporting her so far. And that's assuming Jill Stein will give it up, which she might not, because she's also a Russian asset."
Is Jill Stein 'also' a Russian asset apart from some other personal characteristic (ie, she's a third-party candidate and also a Russian asset) or is Jill Stein 'also' a Russian asset apart from the unnamed Democratic primary candidate that is being supported by Russia?

Last edited by Scopedog; 22nd October 2019 at 04:36 PM.
Scopedog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 04:41 PM   #366
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,447
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I really don't. Your links either talk about ideal assets, or speak more generally and in a way which agrees with your opponents, or even mention unwitting assets. You shot yourself in the foot, there.
Can you quote the relevant parts, because I just looked over it all again, and I don't see anything in my links about "unwitting assets" (besides the post 2016 stuff, which I linked to just to prove that it was a brand new use of the word.)
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 04:41 PM   #367
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 17,588
Tucker Carlson, well yeah, he seems to be among the sanest Yankistanis. A miracle why he is allowed to be a top host on Faux News. But there he is with Tulsi (a real association contrary to the one with Duke):

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

btw, as an admtted reader of the Daily Stormer, I can tell you that the bit about calling Tulsi "mommy" is junk as well. They do call Warren and Harris the two mommies they don't want to have. And they imagine a Tucker Carlson/Tulsi Gabbard ticket for 2024, which would be their paradise. And frankly I wouldn't object to that, but you already know how evil I am.
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 04:50 PM   #368
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,447
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
People forget one simple fact.

Words don't have fixed meanings, they only have usages.
Normally I'm very agnostic on the morphing on language over time, but this is a really dangerous sort of misuse of the word "asset".

Under this new definition of the word "asset", all the Vietnam protesters were "Soviet assets". Anyone who effectively opposes war with Iran is an "Iranian asset". Etc and so on.

This new use just sort of slipped under the radar before now, because it started with speculation that Trump was a "Russian asset", and originally, people were meaning it in the "Russia has blackmail material on him and can control him with it" sense. Then, when that didn't pan out evidence-wise, they didn't just let it go, but started to just re-tool the word asset to expand the definition to more and more people, including the "unwitting" aspect, which is completely contrary to the pre-Russiagate definition.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 04:59 PM   #369
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,447
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yes, a useful idiot can be just as much (even more) an asset as someone that is on the payroll.
Were Vietnam protesters "useful idiots" of the USSR?

Does the level of "idiocy" matter in determining whether or not someone's an "asset"?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 05:04 PM   #370
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,447
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Did you check out Kelly's fourth link? It dates back to last year and it's very clear about the use of the term for unwitting people.

You are WRONG.
My whole point was that this new definition is STRICTLY a byproduct of Russiagate.

"Asset" had a very specific meaning before that, and only NOW post-Russiagate does it include people who "unwittingly" do things Russia might like.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 05:24 PM   #371
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 17,588
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
My whole point was that this new definition is STRICTLY a byproduct of Russiagate.

"Asset" had a very specific meaning before that, and only NOW post-Russiagate does it include people who "unwittingly" do things Russia might like.

This is Kelly's point, so far no evidence against it. Which is a bit like Tulsi's point against the US foreign policy that serves nothing but "Empire". And the guilt-by-association smears are as dumb in the broader Tulsi scenario as they are in the ISF scenario. Kelly is incapable of making me stop endorsing her posts on these obvious falsehoods. Which doesn't make her guilty of my ... the fact that this has to be pointed out on a forum allegedly devoted to critical thinking is sad.
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 22nd October 2019 at 05:25 PM.
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 05:29 PM   #372
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,447
Updated political spectrum.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot 2019-10-22 at 7.34.28 PM.jpg (29.1 KB, 1 views)
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 05:46 PM   #373
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 22,890
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Were Vietnam protesters "useful idiots" of the USSR?

Does the level of "idiocy" matter in determining whether or not someone's an "asset"?
Maybe. I'm not a big fan of using the term in reference to Gabbard. It's probably more accurate to describe her and Stein as unwitting accomplices.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 05:53 PM   #374
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 17,588
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Maybe. I'm not a big fan of using the term in reference to Gabbard. It's probably more accurate to describe her and Stein as unwitting accomplices.

If the thing one wants to accomplish is stopping the largest military machine in history from ruling the planet. Which is something Tulsi, Kelly, me, Trump, Greta Thunberg and Putin (who rules a defensive military machine far lesser than a tenth of what is threatening his people) agree upon as a goal.
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 05:58 PM   #375
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 22,890
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
If the thing one wants to accomplish is stopping the largest military machine in history from ruling the planet. Which is something Tulsi, Kelly, me, Trump, Greta Thunberg and Putin (who rules a defensive military machine far lesser than a tenth of what is threatening his people) agree upon as a goal.
BS. Putin's defensive military machine invaded Crimea. Hardly defensive.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 06:01 PM   #376
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 17,588
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
BS. Putin's defensive military machine invaded Crimea. Hardly defensive.

<°(((((><
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 06:06 PM   #377
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,447
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Maybe. I'm not a big fan of using the term in reference to Gabbard. It's probably more accurate to describe her and Stein as unwitting accomplices.
An accomplice to what crime?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 06:17 PM   #378
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 22,890
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
An accomplice to what crime?
Russian involvement in US elections. This IS against US law.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 06:24 PM   #379
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,447
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
BS. Putin's defensive military machine invaded Crimea. Hardly defensive.
Well, there probably was some element of defense at play there. See:
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/artic...a-from-ukraine

Quote:
The question of why Putin took this step is of more than historical interest. Understanding his motives for occupying and annexing Crimea is crucial to assessing whether he will make similar choices in the future—for example, sending troops to “liberate” ethnic Russians in the Baltic states—just as it is key to determining what measures the West might take to deter such actions.

Three plausible interpretations of Putin’s move have emerged.

The first—call it “Putin as defender”—is that the Crimean operation was a response to the threat of NATO’s further expansion along Russia’s western border. By this logic, Putin seized the peninsula to prevent two dangerous possibilities: first, that Ukraine’s new government might join NATO, and second, that Kiev might evict Russia’s Black Sea Fleet from its long-standing base in Sevastopol.

A second interpretation—call it “Putin as imperialist”—casts the annexation of Crimea as part of a Russian project to gradually recapture the former territories of the Soviet Union. Putin never accepted the loss of Russian prestige that followed the end of the Cold War, this argument suggests, and he is determined to restore it, in part by expanding Russia’s borders.

A third explanation—“Putin as improviser”—rejects such broader designs and presents the annexation as a hastily conceived response to the unforeseen fall of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych. The occupation and annexation of Crimea, in this view, was an impulsive decision that Putin stumbled into rather than the careful move of a strategist with geopolitical ambitions.

Over the past two years, Putin has appeared to lend support to all three interpretations.
And it's kind of relevant that most Crimeans really did want to be annexed, isn't it?

https://www.bbg.gov/2014/06/03/ukrai...rces-for-news/
Quote:
The results of the survey, conducted April 21-29, 2014, showed that 83% of Crimeans felt that the results of the March 16 referendum on Crimea’s status likely reflected the views of most people there. This view is shared only by 30% in the rest of the country. Most Crimeans (74%) also responded that they believe that life would be better as part of Russia.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 06:26 PM   #380
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,447
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Russian involvement in US elections. This IS against US law.
HOW did Stein or Gabbard help Russia interfere?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 06:31 PM   #381
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,617
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Updated political spectrum.
How come if they love freedom and liberty so much that they can't keep themselves from praising authoritarian regimes and their dictators whenever the opportunity presents itself?

Shouldn't they distance themselves from people like Bashar al Assad or Putin instead? It doesn't take much effort to bash Putin's kleptocratic regime.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 06:34 PM   #382
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,447
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
How come if they love freedom and liberty so much that they can't keep themselves from praising authoritarian regimes and their dictators whenever the opportunity presents itself?

Shouldn't they distance themselves from people like Bashar al Assad or Putin instead? It doesn't take much effort to bash Putin's kleptocratic regime.
Can I get an example of the "praise"?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 06:46 PM   #383
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 22,890
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
HOW did Stein or Gabbard help Russia interfere?
I called them "unwitting" accomplices. There is a deliberate attempt by Russia to create chaos in our elections. It is quite clear that this involves creating fractures in the Democratic party.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 06:50 PM   #384
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,008
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I called them "unwitting" accomplices. There is a deliberate attempt by Russia to create chaos in our elections. It is quite clear that this involves creating fractures in the Democratic party.
By that logic, Clinton and Sanders are both Russian "assets".

It's also kind of ironic to complain that candidates in a party primary are creating divisions in the party. Sorry, not ironic. ******* retarded.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 06:54 PM   #385
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 45,950
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
BS. Putin's defensive military machine invaded Crimea. Hardly defensive.
He also attacked Ukrainian troops in the Ukraine proper
He also did a job on the Chechans.
A real peace lover, Vlad the Impaler is.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 06:55 PM   #386
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 22,890
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
By that logic, Clinton and Sanders are both Russian "assets".

It's also kind of ironic to complain that candidates in a party primary are creating divisions in the party. Sorry, not ironic. ******* retarded.
No it's not. Even though that's how you want to paint it. I

'm not arguing that there is anything to do about it other than to recognize that it did and is happening.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 06:55 PM   #387
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 45,950
A Opinion writer at the WAPO suggested Hilary jump into the race.
No.Just No.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 06:59 PM   #388
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 22,890
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A Opinion writer at the WAPO suggested Hilary jump into the race.
No.Just No.
I DEFINITELY do not want Hillary to jump into the race. And I have a great deal of respect for the Secretary.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 06:59 PM   #389
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 17,588
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
the Chechans
__________________
Audiatur et altera pars
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 07:03 PM   #390
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,447
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I called them "unwitting" accomplices. There is a deliberate attempt by Russia to create chaos in our elections. It is quite clear that this involves creating fractures in the Democratic party.
Accomplice always implies knowledge. If you think someone's basically being used as a "pawn", why not call them that?

I mean, especially if you think "creating fractures" is the objective, and using overly loaded, accusatory language like "accomplice" is something that INCREASES the fracture.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 07:05 PM   #391
Elagabalus
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,913
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Well, there probably was some element of defense at play there. See:
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/artic...a-from-ukraine



And it's kind of relevant that most Crimeans really did want to be annexed, isn't it?

https://www.bbg.gov/2014/06/03/ukrai...rces-for-news/
Man, that's straight out of the Jimmy Dore playbook.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 07:06 PM   #392
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 3,255
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
He also attacked Ukrainian troops in the Ukraine proper
He also did a job on the Chechans.
A real peace lover, Vlad the Impaler is.
The standards of some ostensible anti-war people in the U.S. is quite fascinating.

We can rightly condemn people for being all friendly with Henry Kissinger or Dick Cheney, but somehow dining with the horrific warmonger and destroyer of Chechnya is no big deal.

I don't really hold it against people when they're ignorant about the guys they shake hands with (Jill Stein). It's understandable when you have more control over and a bigger stake in holding your own public officials accountable, but I'd like to see some more consistency from the self-professed antiwar internet activists.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 07:07 PM   #393
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 22,890
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Accomplice always implies knowledge. If you think someone's basically being used as a "pawn", why not call them that?

I mean, especially if you think "creating fractures" is the objective, and using overly loaded, accusatory language like "accomplice" is something that INCREASES the fracture.
It does. But the term "unwitting" clarifies my description. Fine, call them pawns. I'm not attached to the word.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 07:09 PM   #394
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,447
Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Man, that's straight out of the Jimmy Dore playbook.
Dore must be following me around the internet and ripping off my style, then.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 07:18 PM   #395
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,447
Originally Posted by Venom View Post

I don't really hold it against people when they're ignorant about the guys they shake hands with (Jill Stein).
What is happening in this picture?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 07:22 PM   #396
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 3,255
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What is happening in this picture?
I know. I've complained before about how ineffectual the whole reset nonsense was. No American administration has done their homework when it comes to the Putin regime.....or most other things for that matter.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 07:28 PM   #397
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,447
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I know. I've complained before about how ineffectual the whole reset nonsense was. No American administration has done their homework when it comes to the Putin regime.....or most other things for that matter.
I just don't think diplomacy is a bad thing, and framing it as "treason" or being a "useful idiot" or whatever is morally awful and an exercise in political opportunism of the worst sort.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 07:45 PM   #398
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 22,890
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I know. I've complained before about how ineffectual the whole reset nonsense was. No American administration has done their homework when it comes to the Putin regime.....or most other things for that matter.
I think this is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE pulled straight from your backside. If you don't believe they know a voluminous amount about Putin and the people that surround him then my view is you are uninformed. We spend billions of dollars to know as much as possible about the various leaders and even more about our adversaries.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 07:54 PM   #399
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,008
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think this is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE pulled straight from your backside. If you don't believe they know a voluminous amount about Putin and the people that surround him then my view is you are uninformed. We spend billions of dollars to know as much as possible about the various leaders and even more about our adversaries.
If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's that amount of money spent isn't always a good indicator of amount of value received.

Certainly the US has a well-established track record of not always getting its money's worth, for all the billions it spends. How many time has the CIA screwed up, over the years?

And remember the "reset" button? The State Department has an annual budget of around $50 billion. That budget is literally for figuring out what's going on in the world and how to deal with it. And these are the rocket surgeons who, under Hillary Clinton, couldn't translate "reset" for a photo op based on one of the president's most iconic bits of campaign rhetoric, to kick off the supposed reset of the Russian relationship. Not only did they completely botch the reset itself, but they even botched translating the word. Into Russian. Can you believe that? The US State Department couldn't un-ass a Russian translator for a visit to Russia? Fifty billion dollars a year.

So yeah. When you say "America spends a ton of money; they must know what's up", all I hear is "Top men. Top. Men." And then I snicker.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2019, 08:03 PM   #400
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 22,890
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's that amount of money spent isn't always a good indicator of amount of value received.

Certainly the US has a well-established track record of not always getting its money's worth, for all the billions it spends. How many time has the CIA screwed up, over the years?

And remember the "reset" button? The State Department has an annual budget of around $50 billion. That budget is literally for figuring out what's going on in the world and how to deal with it. And these are the rocket surgeons who, under Hillary Clinton, couldn't translate "reset" for a photo op based on one of the president's most iconic bits of campaign rhetoric, to kick off the supposed reset of the Russian relationship. Not only did they completely botch the reset itself, but they even botched translating the word. Into Russian. Can you believe that? The US State Department couldn't un-ass a Russian translator for a visit to Russia? Fifty billion dollars a year.

So yeah. When you say "America spends a ton of money; they must know what's up", all I hear is "Top men. Top. Men." And then I snicker.
Sounds like partisan bullcrap to me.

Do we know as much as we could or should? I don't know and frankly the one thing I'm confident about is you don't know either. Not sure what you mean by "reset". But the idea that the US doesn't possess a lengthy dossier on Vladimir Putin is ridiculous. He's been an important figure in Russia for 2+ decades.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:36 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.