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Old 1st November 2019, 12:38 AM   #1
Graham2001
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Barak Obama is a Republican...

Why, because only a member of the Republican Party would say something like this...



Quote:
"I get a sense among certain young people on social media that the way of making change is to be as judgemental as possible about other people.


If I tweet or hashtag about how you didn't do something right or used the wrong verb, then I can sit back and feel pretty good about myself because 'Man did you see how woke I was? I called you out!"


That's enough," he said. "If all you're doing is casting stones, you are probably not going to get that far."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50239261
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Old 1st November 2019, 12:55 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Why, because only a member of the Republican Party would say something like this...






https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50239261
No

That is just an example of your average sane person from both side of the political spectrum realising how stupid things have got when so many lefty/righty fringe identity politics groups get more and more exposure through social media.

The media themselves don't help, now that one tweet from an idiot nobody, can mean "Insert name - Receives death threats from insert right/left identity group!!!", or "Insert name - Hate group/Justice Group (left or right) growing in intensity about insert of victim group!!!"

And then we have 30 page threads about it on just this forum alone.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 1st November 2019 at 01:05 AM.
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Old 1st November 2019, 02:54 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
No

That is just an example of your average sane person from both side of the political spectrum realising how stupid things have got when so many lefty/righty fringe identity politics groups get more and more exposure through social media.

The media themselves don't help, now that one tweet from an idiot nobody, can mean "Insert name - Receives death threats from insert right/left identity group!!!", or "Insert name - Hate group/Justice Group (left or right) growing in intensity about insert of victim group!!!"

And then we have 30 page threads about it on just this forum alone.
I agree. Indeed and it's ironic that the thread starter is doing the exact thing Obama was talking about.
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Old 1st November 2019, 02:55 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Why, because only a member of the Republican Party would say something like this...

Yes, he definitely must be! As we all know, Republicans are never judgmental about other people!
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Old 1st November 2019, 03:03 AM   #5
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Obama is a nice and intelligent man. Wish he was President.
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Old 1st November 2019, 03:06 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, he definitely must be! As we all know, Republicans are never judgmental about other people!
From what I have seen on this forum and others both sides come out about equal, when you ignore the fringe nutty ones on both sides, and just look at the mainstream.

Same as here, same as Aus, same as the UK....Only know about those, but guessing these days it is kind of global, in what Obama is talking about, as he has been to a **** load more countries to witness it.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 1st November 2019, 03:18 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Obama is a nice and intelligent man. Wish he was President.
You really shouldn't

You would end up with what we have.

It is all about swing votes

The Republicans would be forced to go more lefty to win (can't go more right as they lose votes from sane people), which would make the Dem's go more righty to match (can't go more left as they lose votes from sane people), which goes on and they end up in the middle and virtually the same straddling slightly either side of the middle.

And it turns out kind of nice and safe and nothing big is going to freak people out.

But stagnant.

Believe me. When you have a govt that can't make any sort of very major decision it sucks.

Edit: Don't know enough about it to be sure, but guessing I this might be similar to Brexit
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 1st November 2019 at 03:20 AM.
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Old 1st November 2019, 04:19 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Obama is a nice and intelligent man. Wish he was President.
He was.

Wish granted!
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Old 1st November 2019, 04:41 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Obama is a nice and intelligent man. Wish he was President.
Two whole terms, bro. If that's not enough, you can always re-watch The West Wing.
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Old 1st November 2019, 04:48 AM   #10
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Wow! It's almost like it's impossible to describe anyone's political views simply by naming a political party.

It seems human beings are more complicated than that. Whodathunkit?!
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Old 1st November 2019, 04:57 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Two whole terms, bro. If that's not enough, you can always re-watch The West Wing.
Just as an independent overseas observer it is going to be funny as **** on here when Trump wins again.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 1st November 2019, 05:08 AM   #12
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It's funny how people read different things into the same remark. So far everybody seems to be concentrating on the "wokeness" aspect. I read it as Obama saying action is needed to effect change, not just talk. Which seems fairly uncontroversial to me.
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Old 1st November 2019, 05:09 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's funny how people read different things into the same remark. So far everybody seems to be concentrating on the "wokeness" aspect. I read it as Obama saying action is needed to effect change, not just talk. Which seems fairly uncontroversial to me.
That's such a Republican thing to say!
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Old 1st November 2019, 05:20 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's funny how people read different things into the same remark. So far everybody seems to be concentrating on the "wokeness" aspect. I read it as Obama saying action is needed to effect change, not just talk. Which seems fairly uncontroversial to me.


I just read it as fairly neutral and rather than finding hidden meanings in his words, just went with the words.

Quote:
I get a sense among certain young people on social media that the way of making change is to be as judgemental as possible about other people.
Nothing about a "Side"(which seems to mean a lot to Americans)

Quote:
If I tweet or hashtag about how you didn't do something right or used the wrong verb, then I can sit back and feel pretty good about myself because 'Man did you see how woke I was? I called you out!"


That's enough," he said. "If all you're doing is casting stones, you are probably not going to get that far."
This could look a bit anti-left, but actually happens both ways.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 1st November 2019, 05:20 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's such a Republican thing to say!
Not for the evangelical wing of the Republicans. It strays too close to the Catholic insistence that good deeds are required for salvation, rather than the Protestant "by faith alone" doctrine. Thinking correct thoughts doesn't seem like enough when it's not coupled with action.
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Old 1st November 2019, 05:22 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Not for the evangelical wing of the Republicans. It strays too close to the Catholic insistence that good deeds are required for salvation, rather than the Protestant "by faith alone" doctrine. Thinking correct thoughts doesn't seem like enough when it's not coupled with action.
Like this

^^^^
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 1st November 2019, 05:32 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Like this

^^^^
I'm sorry you're unable to follow a thought through and express it in words. It's a skill used in an activity called "conversation". Feel free to disregard my remarks entirely.
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Old 1st November 2019, 05:37 AM   #18
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Sorry, I find it both humorous and shocking as a non American watching, you and others blatantly see things from such a one eyed partisan view point.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 1st November 2019, 05:42 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Sorry, I find it both humorous and shocking as a non American watching, you and others blatantly see things from such a one eyed partisan view point.
What's partisan about either of my remarks? What party do you think I belong to, and how do either of my remarks reflect that party?

I don't think you know US politics in general or the posters on this board well enough to make such judgments. You're not an informed onlooker seeing most of the game, you're an outsider making guesses based on limited information. You don't have the insight you think you do.
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Old 1st November 2019, 05:57 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Sorry, I find it both humorous and shocking as a non American watching, you and others blatantly see things from such a one eyed partisan view point.
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Old 1st November 2019, 06:00 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's funny how people read different things into the same remark. So far everybody seems to be concentrating on the "wokeness" aspect. I read it as Obama saying action is needed to effect change, not just talk. Which seems fairly uncontroversial to me.
Very much. In fact, Obama's point is that merely "calling someone out" is NOT ENOUGH. Real activism means to do something.

He's not saying that the people that are getting called out are acceptable, just that pot shots on social media do not count as doing something. He is telling them to do something.

That's not anything that is limited to Republicans. Heck, it's what folks like he and Hillary have done their whole lives.
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Old 1st November 2019, 06:04 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post

It is all about swing votes

The Republicans would be forced to go more lefty to win (can't go more right as they lose votes from sane people), which would make the Dem's go more righty to match (can't go more left as they lose votes from sane people), which goes on and they end up in the middle and virtually the same straddling slightly either side of the middle.
That isn’t how US politics works. Republicans don’t move their position to match voters preferences they endeavor to keep their base separate and distinct, so they firmly identify as Republicans, then use that identity to tell their base what positions they should hold.

As mainstream Democrats have moved towards a centrist and moderate right win positions over the years Republicans have ran as far and as fast as they can from moderate and moderate and centrist positions. They also usually reserve their most vehement and viscous political attacks for the most right leaning Democrats, again this is create a firewall to make it difficult for their base to change sides or defect.

Functionally this really isn’t that far from how cults operate. Keep them isolated and with a solid sense of identity that is adversarial to outsiders, then use loyalty to the group and its leaders to dictate to the in-group what to think and believe. These beliefs are then tailored to maintain the groups sense of distinctness, separation and loyalty to the group and its leaders.
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Old 1st November 2019, 06:13 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Why, because only a member of the Republican Party would say something like this...
You appear to be saying that a right wing authoritarian is making a statement that sounds like one a right wing authoritarian party would make.


Stick Republicans and Democrats in a different country and most would probably be extremes in the same party.

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Old 1st November 2019, 06:21 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
That isnít how US politics works. Republicans donít move their position to match voters preferences they endeavor to keep their base separate and distinct, so they firmly identify as Republicans, then use that identity to tell their base what positions they should hold.

As mainstream Democrats have moved towards a centrist and moderate right win positions over the years Republicans have ran as far and as fast as they can from moderate and moderate and centrist positions. They also usually reserve their most vehement and viscous political attacks for the most right leaning Democrats, again this is create a firewall to make it difficult for their

Functionally this really isnít that far from how cults operate. Keep them isolated and with a solid sense of identity that is adversarial to outsiders, then use loyalty to the group and its leaders to dictate to the in-group what to think and believe. These beliefs are then tailored to maintain the groups sense of distinctness, separation and loyalty to the group and its leaders.
Make it difficult for their what to what?
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Old 1st November 2019, 06:29 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Make it difficult for their what to what?
Fixed
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Old 1st November 2019, 06:41 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Why, because only a member of the Republican Party would say something like this...



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50239261
I still find it weird when people yap about "woke culture" - which is the BBC's phrasing, not Obama's. But older people on pretty much every part of the political spectrum have said not to get too enraged by people that simply didn't phrase things to your exact liking, which is what the mangled version of "being woke" is, and is actually common across the spectrum. For example, you may become enraged by short phrases like "Some people did something", "If I had a son he'd look like Trayvon", and so on. Or, say, a football player who takes a knee during a national anthem ceremony, who you then decide must be "canceled".

And for those who know what being "woke" originally meant, yes, I did choose the above examples deliberately.

ETA:

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's funny how people read different things into the same remark. So far everybody seems to be concentrating on the "wokeness" aspect. I read it as Obama saying action is needed to effect change, not just talk. Which seems fairly uncontroversial to me.
Also, this - and it's a fairly common observation among actual activists.

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Old 1st November 2019, 07:04 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
That isn’t how US politics works. Republicans don’t move their position to match voters preferences they endeavor to keep their base separate and distinct, so they firmly identify as Republicans, then use that identity to tell their base what positions they should hold.
Another way to think of it, which is mostly just a different way to express the same thing:

There are swing voters, but the ones in the middle don't count for as much as commonly expressed. Many swing voters out there don't swing between Republican/Democrat. Instead, they are further from center, and swing between Republican/Libertarian/Constitutionalist or between Democrat/Green.

Closer to the middle, there are some people who go back and forth between Republican and Democrat, but they are outnumbered by those who just go back and forth between vote/don't vote, but can re relied upon to be pretty reliable with which way they do vote, assuming they can make the effort to do anything at all.

In this situation, enthusiasm is key. The Republican party has had success for many years by moving rightward, getting the less moderate people enthused. The Dems just can't seem to match the level of enthusiasm that the Republicans have, perhaps the far left is just too distrustful of authority to really buy in to the Democratic Party as a whole or maybe the Dems just need to do better messaging. Add in the effect of gerrymandering (which currently mostly favors Republicans) and the over-representation of rural areas in the U.S. and most state Senates, and you've got a strategy for the Republican party to do very well by strongly motivating a relatively small set of voters

So moving left/right just does not have much value, too many voters are siloed together. Obama said something that Republicans think does not sound very Democratic Party-like. Obama is still pro-choice on abortion, he still favors more regulation of firearms, still supports a much stronger push towards renewable energy and much greater regulation of emissions. He still supports efforts to make it easier to vote, still supports a smaller military budget than preferred by the GOP, still favors full gender equality. Death penalty, homosexual people in the military, the list of issues with pretty clearly defined differences between the two parties goes on. Get the idea? - these, in many cases are almost black and white issues relative to the current status quo. We increase regulations or restrictions on this or that, or we oppose new regulations. We want government incentives to make this or that change, or we don't, more funding, or less.

And most voters fall into these silos. Find a person who strong favors continuation of the death penalty, that person will likely also oppose any new gun regulations, oppose abortion, and not be supportive of increased regulations on emissions.

This used to not be the case, there used to be issues that didn't fall along party lines. But there are fewer and fewer such issues, making it harder and harder to parties to get people to switch votes.

Last edited by crescent; 1st November 2019 at 07:05 AM.
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Old 1st November 2019, 07:31 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
He was.

Wish granted!
The Monkey's Paw: he was followed by President Trump
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Old 1st November 2019, 07:36 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's funny how people read different things into the same remark. So far everybody seems to be concentrating on the "wokeness" aspect. I read it as Obama saying action is needed to effect change, not just talk. Which seems fairly uncontroversial to me.
Agreed. Seems like he was lightly ridiculing people who drop a 'woke' tweet and think that was substantial. It's nothing. You gotta get your hands dirty.
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Old 1st November 2019, 07:48 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Another way to think of it, which is mostly just a different way to express the same thing:

There are swing voters, but the ones in the middle don't count for as much as commonly expressed. Many swing voters out there don't swing between Republican/Democrat. Instead, they are further from center, and swing between Republican/Libertarian/Constitutionalist or between Democrat/Green.

Closer to the middle, there are some people who go back and forth between Republican and Democrat, but they are outnumbered by those who just go back and forth between vote/don't vote, but can re relied upon to be pretty reliable with which way they do vote, assuming they can make the effort to do anything at all.
Appealing to swing voters isnít something Republicans do, their whole system is built around telling their own base what to think and enforcing party loyalty on those lines. Swing voters are an anathema to what the Republican political system is based on.


From a policy basis they are already either swing voters or straight up mainstream Democrats until they can map the policy to a specific Democratic or Republicans policy. If you pole them with specific questions and avoid the standard Republican keywords and talking points, most Right Wing voters fall more or less into line with mainstream Democratic policy on many, possibly most, big ticket issues. Eg try to find Republicans who actually oppose Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc. The distinction is that Democrats want to pay for these things with taxes, while Republicans want to pay for them with tax cuts. Clearly, the latter doesnít make sense, but in the Republican mindset it doesnít need to, the party says this is what to think so Republicans voters think it.

Once they can make a mental mapping from policy to Party line Republicans will nearly always change the policy they support rather then the party they support. This is why the party can do a complete 180 on issues like and after a brief period of cognitive dissonance Republicans fall right back into line with the new party position as if it were something they wanted all along.
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Old 1st November 2019, 08:51 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's funny how people read different things into the same remark. So far everybody seems to be concentrating on the "wokeness" aspect. I read it as Obama saying action is needed to effect change, not just talk. Which seems fairly uncontroversial to me.
Ya, I only watched the minute and change of the video and read how the Beeb summarized it, but in that very small specific clip, he seems to be more about being reactionary (which isn't really new) and slacktivism. He doesn't slam being "woke" itself. Rather how it manifests on social media.

Granted, I could be wrong and the rest of his statement at the event is all about him calling "woke" people "snowflakes" and "cucks"
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Old 1st November 2019, 09:17 AM   #32
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No, you're not wrong.
I have seen the whole thing, and he is talking to people who reactionaries would probably all describe as woke, telling them about the pitfalls they should avoid in order to be efficient activists:

A theme almost from the beginning is he finds it important to distinguish between what you are really interested in and what you would like to pretend to yourself that you are interested in:
“for me it was much more me trying to be the person I believed I was,” by trying, and occasionally accomplishing, to actually change things.
When interns at the White House asked Obama the question (more or less), ‘How can I be president?’
“'What path should I take, how should I think about it?' And, you know, the thing I used to tell them, which was something an older friend of mine had told me back when I was still organizing, I remember him telling me and I related to these young people, ‘I’m worried more about what you want to do rather than about what you want to be.’”
This leads people to lack a moral compass. So instead, they should “focus on what you want to do.”
In other words, he criticizes careerism, so he is obviously not talking to Republicans.

President Obama Speaks at the Obama Foundation Summit 2019 | NowThis (The session with Obama starts at 25:20)
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I AGREE



ETA: Compared to the incumbent resident of the WH, it's remarkable how he's able to stick to the point that he wants to make throughout the very long session where he answers questions from young activists. When he talks about himself and his own experiences, he is actually trying to make a point about something other than himself and succeeds in doing so. And objects to being called 'your majesty' (or something like that, maybe 'your excellency', I didn't write it down) by a girl from Cameroon, who is obviously an admirer of his. He appears to dislike the adulation and would like them to be on much more equal terms.
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Old 1st November 2019, 11:53 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Edit: Don't know enough about it to be sure, but guessing I this might be similar to Brexit
Not really, no. The current Labour party is further left than it's been since the 70s, and the Tories are further to the right than perhaps they've ever been. That's the opposite of what you're saying.

Besides, a two party system is never going to model a multi-party system that closely, and it's being predicted that the smaller parties are going to do unprecedentedly wall in the upcoming UK election making it hard for either of the two bigger parties to get a majority.
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Old 1st November 2019, 12:02 PM   #34
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Historically speaking he could have easily been a Rockefeller Republican in the 60's and 70's. I mean even the ACA was originally a Republican idea. Nixon was economically certainly to the left of him.
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Old 1st November 2019, 12:02 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Not for the evangelical wing of the Republicans. It strays too close to the Catholic insistence that good deeds are required for salvation, rather than the Protestant "by faith alone" doctrine. Thinking correct thoughts doesn't seem like enough when it's not coupled with action.
I wonder how they reconcile their "good deeds are required for salvation" philosophy with forcibly separating children from their parents and then caging those children in concentration camps for months on end?
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Old 1st November 2019, 12:06 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Why, because only a member of the Republican Party would say something like this...



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50239261
Nah. Not nearly enough whining and fear-mongering.
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Old 1st November 2019, 12:07 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I wonder how they reconcile their "good deeds are required for salvation" philosophy with forcibly separating children from their parents and then caging those children in concentration camps for months on end?
That's nothing compared to the achievement of turning an ancient Middle Eastern eremitical mysticism focused on rejecting worldly goods into a modern "God wants you to be rich" middle class capitalist religion. If it hadn't actually happened I'd have said it was not only impossible but literally insane to think it could!
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Old 1st November 2019, 12:09 PM   #38
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why don't Republicans embrace Obama?
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Old 1st November 2019, 12:10 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
That's nothing compared to the achievement of turning an ancient Middle Eastern eremitical mysticism focused on rejecting worldly goods into a modern "God wants you to be rich" middle class capitalist religion. If it hadn't actually happened I'd have said it was not only impossible but literally insane to think it could!
Oh, I really love this point - a totally bizarre transformation if you think about the starting and end positions... History is weird.
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Old 1st November 2019, 12:12 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
why don't Republicans embrace Obama?
I don't know. I can't think of a single thing about him that's unlike any other President before or since...
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