ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 6th November 2019, 06:22 PM   #41
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,713
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
That's Missouri. I believe the OP article was about Kansas.
I was more thinking of the wider implications of "show me" i.e. people who are too stupid to understand stuff without a pretty picture. Coffeyville, with a judge with no Law degree, who wears his judicial robes over a pair of cowboy boots, utterly reeks of Hicktown, USA
__________________
"You can't promote principled anti-corruption action without pissing-off corrupt people!" - George Kent on Day one of the Trump Impeachment Hearings
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2019, 06:22 PM   #42
fishbob
Seasonally Disaffected
 
fishbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chilly Undieville
Posts: 7,099
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I guess that a judge has the power to hold a defendant in contempt if he doesn't show up to court. Maybe this is something particular to Kansas.
Must be. Doesn't seem to apply in DC lately.
__________________
"When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder.
"It looks like the saddest, most crookedest candy corn in an otherwise normal bag of candy corns." Stormy Daniels
I hate bigots.
fishbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2019, 06:41 PM   #43
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 13,160
In a morally advanced capitalist society, the biggest supplier of health-care is not the government but some form of crowd-funding. Beg, bitches.
__________________
April 13th, 2018:
Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2019, 06:47 PM   #44
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,402
It really does happen everywhere to some extent:

https://www.thenation.com/article/pr...btors-prisons/

Quote:
Specific debt collectors and specific judges specialize in issuing arrest warrants. A medical-debt collector in Idaho obtained 345 arrest warrants and jailed 222 debtors over a six-year period
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2019, 06:50 PM   #45
Stacyhs
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 9,457
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I was more thinking of the wider implications of "show me" i.e. people who are too stupid to understand stuff without a pretty picture. Coffeyville, with a judge with no Law degree, who wears his judicial robes over a pair of cowboy boots, utterly reeks of Hicktown, USA
It's always perplexed me how anyone can be a decent judge with no law degree. It's like appointing someone with no medical degree to decide proper medical procedures.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2019, 07:02 PM   #46
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 15,023
Debtors' prisons - only in America.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2019, 09:17 PM   #47
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,306
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's always perplexed me how anyone can be a decent judge with no law degree. It's like appointing someone with no medical degree to decide proper medical procedures.
They can't, judging by the article.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th November 2019, 09:36 PM   #48
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 23,330
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's always perplexed me how anyone can be a decent judge with no law degree. It's like appointing someone with no medical degree to decide proper medical procedures.
There are some less than decent judges who DO have law degrees. Many of them in fact. Including at least 1/3 of the Supreme Court.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2019, 04:41 AM   #49
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 88,034
Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
If you're poor, stop being poor.
It is sad that so many people just don't understand this simple fact, and then they want other people to sort out their problems!
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2019, 05:35 AM   #50
Lothian
should be banned
 
Lothian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: I try to be a moving target
Posts: 15,073
Is there not free healthcare for prisoners? If you get ill commit a crime that that a similar sentence to the treatment period.
Lothian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2019, 06:35 AM   #51
Suddenly
No Punting
 
Suddenly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montani Semper Liberi
Posts: 3,175
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's always perplexed me how anyone can be a decent judge with no law degree. It's like appointing someone with no medical degree to decide proper medical procedures.
In theory it isn't bad. The usual set up for these para-judges are for them to only handle basic stuff and be on a pretty short leash as to things like contempt powers and criminal punishments. They arraign people, handle petty criminal matters, small civil disputes, etc.

The problem is when they abuse powers like in this story and nobody in power or with access to power steps up and fights them hard.

One solution to having these kinds of issues is to not give any sort of immunity to a political entity that uses these sorts of para-judges. What is going on in that case is a clear abuse of the contempt power, both in using it as a collection tool almost certainly in violation of the spirit if not letter of the Equal Protection Clause, and also just basic corruption in that a private party is being allowed to direct judicial policy.

Just that immunity doctrines make it hard to sue. Unless lawyers want to work for free it is unlikely to happen.

Immunity doctrines are a big reason a lot of local corruption runs unchecked. That and the death of the local independent press.
Suddenly is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2019, 07:39 AM   #52
Armitage72
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,466
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It is sad that so many people just don't understand this simple fact, and then they want other people to sort out their problems!

The guy in the interview said that poor people just need to better themselves by getting a GED, a better job, etc. It was largely their own fault that they're poor.

I once read a science fiction novel in which a character stated "The shrillest cries of social injustice usually come from those whose only contribution to society could be done just as well by a trained chimpanzee." The argument was that the key to success is to find a skill or talent that you possess, that society finds valuable, and which most other people don't have. At that point, society won't mistreat you because they need and value what you can do. The problem with that argument is that it ignores situations where circumstances prevent someone from developing their talents. A single mother working three jobs to support herself and her two children might have the potential to be the world's greatest botanist or concert pianist, but how and when is she supposed to develop that potential?

Last edited by Armitage72; 7th November 2019 at 07:44 AM.
Armitage72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2019, 11:30 AM   #53
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,070
Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
I'm not saying it's right, but read the article. They aren't being jailed for their medical debt, they are being jailed for missing court dates regarding their medical debt.
From my reading the process goes like this:
1- have the person summoned to a proceeding aimed at a negotiated settlement
2- refuse any settlement that isn't 100% on their terms, and have them summoned again
3- repeat this until the person misses a court date at which point the plaintiff wins a full verdict in their favor and the defendant they summoned over and over faces jail for contempt.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2019, 11:32 AM   #54
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 18,587
At least they'll be operating in an environment where employers are going to be really sympathetic regarding days off otherwise their ability to earn money to actually pay the debt might be inhibited.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th November 2019, 12:49 PM   #55
Stacyhs
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 9,457
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
There are some less than decent judges who DO have law degrees. Many of them in fact. Including at least 1/3 of the Supreme Court.
What can we expect from a president and senate who routinely nominate and approve judges found to be unqualified for the job by the ABA?
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2019, 11:41 AM   #56
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 16,134
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm not at all surprised that conservative strongholds like OK or KS have barbaric debt collection practices. Being poor is the greatest sin to the eyes of these people.

You're looking at this the wrong way. It's not being poor that is the sin to hardline conservatives, it's being poor and still being uppity enough to believe that one has the same rights as rich people. Like the War on Drugs. this is very much a harassment technique intended to keep people poor, keep for-profit prisons profitable, and put more money in the pockets of officials. They are trying to de facto re-established indentured servitude in this country. Plus, this has the added bonus of disenfranchising the poor, since if they have a criminal conviction, and still owe fines, they can be denied the vote. That's what the school-to-prison pipeline has been effective at doing to minorities in various parts of the country.
__________________
When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2019, 12:01 PM   #57
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,228
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You're looking at this the wrong way. It's not being poor that is the sin to hardline conservatives, it's being poor and still being uppity enough to believe that one has the same rights as rich people. Like the War on Drugs. this is very much a harassment technique intended to keep people poor, keep for-profit prisons profitable, and put more money in the pockets of officials.
And it's still nonsensical: more middle-class people means that people have more money to spend. You can't swindle poor people out of more money than they have, and life isn't a zero-sum game.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2019, 12:40 PM   #58
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,358
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You can't swindle poor people out of more money than they have...
Sure you can. It's called 'interest.' Also, fees. Any rent as well, really.


Quote:
...and life isn't a zero-sum game.
It is according to hyper-competitive late-stage capitalism.
__________________
A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned.
-Shepard Book
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2019, 12:52 PM   #59
Armitage72
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,466
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Sure you can. It's called 'interest.' Also, fees. Any rent as well, really.

"Hey, peon. I'll cover 15% of your outstanding debt if you spend the next six months on your hands and knees in my study, serving as my personal footstool."
Armitage72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2019, 12:57 PM   #60
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 19,397
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And it's still nonsensical: more middle-class people means that people have more money to spend. You can't swindle poor people out of more money than they have, and life isn't a zero-sum game.
There is a lot of money in poor people, you just have to learn the right way to squeeze them.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2019, 02:41 PM   #61
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 16,134
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
There is a lot of money in poor people, you just have to learn the right way to squeeze them.

Especially if you can squeeze them into crippling debt, and only offer them low-paying jobs with few benefits while making them hyper-dependent on those limited benefits, so you can get very cheap labour out of them and crank up your own profit margins to insanely high percentages.

Squeezing money out of people doesn't just mean directly taking cash from them, it also means squeezing them to indirectly provide financial gains through labour or other means.

And in any case, even if you only squeeze a small amount from one particular person, even repeatedly over a long period of time, there are a whole lot more poor people than rich people; so it adds up very quickly.

Further, it's much harder for poor people to fight back, because fighting back takes... wait for it... money. A whole lot of money and free time, things that poor people have a whole lot less of than the people who are squeezing money out of them.
__________________
When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2019, 02:51 PM   #62
Crawtator
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 366
Not saying I agree with the practice at all, but I know how it happens.

In Louisiana, at least, a creditor obtains a judgment. It doesn't really matter how, be it through the default judgment process or through a trial. After the judgment is rendered in favor of the creditor, the creditor may file for what we call a "judgment debtor exam". The only purpose of this hearing, which is noticed to the debtor by court official or marshall, is to set up a meeting with the creditor to obtain financial documentation so that the creditor can determine what assets and/or income can be seized to pay the debt. Failure to attend this meeting can result in the court issuing a bench warrant, which is how the debtor may end up in jail. Most judges are reluctant to issue a bench warrant, but get a judge that is having a bad day and a debtor who is ignoring all the correspondence and/or filings of the court, and you may have a bad situation arise.

Like I said: I'm not saying this is something I like or condone. But I've seen it happen with my clients from time to time. My stock advice is always: "You get an order to appear in front of a judge, whether civil or criminal, you go and see the judge. Ignoring the judge never makes the situation better."
Crawtator is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th November 2019, 04:06 PM   #63
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,402
Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
The guy in the interview said that poor people just need to better themselves by getting a GED, a better job, etc. It was largely their own fault that they're poor.

I once read a science fiction novel in which a character stated "The shrillest cries of social injustice usually come from those whose only contribution to society could be done just as well by a trained chimpanzee." The argument was that the key to success is to find a skill or talent that you possess, that society finds valuable, and which most other people don't have. At that point, society won't mistreat you because they need and value what you can do. The problem with that argument is that it ignores situations where circumstances prevent someone from developing their talents. A single mother working three jobs to support herself and her two children might have the potential to be the world's greatest botanist or concert pianist, but how and when is she supposed to develop that potential?
Beyond that, how many botanists and concert pianists can find employment in those exact lines of work in our current system? I'm pretty sure a 1/10,000 talented and skilled concert pianist will actually be lucky to eek out a living mostly giving rich kids piano lessons.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 05:12 AM   #64
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,228
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Sure you can. It's called 'interest.' Also, fees. Any rent as well, really.
Yes but the point is that they can't get more money than they have at the moment. You sure can get them later, I get that.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 01:19 PM   #65
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 48,099
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's always perplexed me how anyone can be a decent judge with no law degree. It's like appointing someone with no medical degree to decide proper medical procedures.
Well now you have discovered the problem of the Coroner system.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 01:32 PM   #66
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 24,438
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's always perplexed me how anyone can be a decent judge with no law degree. It's like appointing someone with no medical degree to decide proper medical procedures.
All it takes is nobody with a law degree running against in that town. Somebody has to be the judge.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 01:54 PM   #67
8enotto
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 1,230
Jails and prisons are not known for great health care. The worse the record at any facility the record keeping gets sketchy.

If cancer gets someone while inside there is a good chance it was never detected. A better chance an autopsy won't be done.

Last edited by 8enotto; Yesterday at 01:56 PM.
8enotto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 02:09 PM   #68
Stacyhs
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 9,457
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well now you have discovered the problem of the Coroner system.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Oh.My. Freaking. God.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:02 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.