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Old 23rd January 2020, 11:08 AM   #2521
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Don't forget the majority of British fishermen sold their quotas to Spanish and French boats.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 11:09 AM   #2522
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That sounded too stupid to be true.

Turns out I was right. The headline badly mischaracterizes her complaint, which is not that they don't have EU representation, but that the EU still has control over UK waters.
Her complaint is that we are out of the EU but still subject to the rules of the EU with no say in setting those rules.

That is because the Tories promised we would leave the EU at the end of Jan and would then enter a transition period until 31 Dec 2020. During that transition period we get all the benefits and obligations of membership with no say.

The Brexit party could have stood on a platform of 'leave now' with no transition period. Instead they backed the Tories and didn't stand against any Tory candidates who advocated the transition deal. To now complain that we have transition is bonkers.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 11:52 AM   #2523
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That sounded too stupid to be true.

Turns out I was right. The headline badly mischaracterizes her complaint, which is not that they don't have EU representation, but that the EU still has control over UK waters.
There is no real difference in how stupid these things are. Itís still something Brexiters demanded and are complaining about after it comes to pass.


It makes more sense for the UK remain in the EU until there is an actual Brexit deal in place, but the pro Brexit government wants to ďget Brexit doneĒ so they are doing it under an interim agreement where the UK leaves the EU but is still subject to EU rules, regulations, trade agreements, etc.

In terms of the fisheries themselves, Iím doubtful the current government even knows whatís involved with managing it themselves and I doubt whether it will be able to put the bureaucracy in place to do so. Therefor the UK will probably have no choice but to depend on the EU to do this for them indefinitely.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:04 PM   #2524
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post

The Brexit party could have stood on a platform of 'leave now' with no transition period. Instead they backed the Tories and didn't stand against any Tory candidates who advocated the transition deal.
Deep down they must realize that as things currently sit the UK is not capable of managing itís own affairs. They hope that the transition period will give them time to build the capacity to do so but in most cases they donít even seem to understand whatís involved with running things themselves.

Does the UK even have a fisheries department staffed with marine biologists experienced in monitoring populations and setting quotaís accordingly? Given that, the EU has been performing this function on their behalf I highly doubt that it does.


Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
To now complain that we have transition is bonkers.
Yup.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:18 PM   #2525
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
And they can **** right off.
Own it...

If the rest of us have to put up with this **** show, then the bloody places that voted for it can as well.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 12:20 PM   #2526
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Don't forget the majority of British fishermen fishing company owners sold their quotas to Spanish and French boats.
A small but significant distinction.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 01:07 PM   #2527
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
There is no real difference in how stupid these things are. Itís still something Brexiters demanded and are complaining about after it comes to pass.
No. They didn't demand a transition period in which the EU would maintain control even after separation. And the fact that this deal may be preferable to them than remaining doesn't mean that they can't have any complaints about this deal. It's fair to say, "Oh well" or "tough luck", or even "suck it" to those complaints, but the complaints themselves aren't contradictory.
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Old 23rd January 2020, 02:26 PM   #2528
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Was there anything on the agenda of those committee meetings that he personally should have been covering? Also, what makes you think she didn't see this coming? I don't see this in her Tweet. It's hardly a situation that is implicit in Brexit, just the deal that the Brexit party moaned was a bad deal.

Personally, I'd see it as the beginning of the push to maintain pressure to leave for good at the end of the year.

If I was going to attack the Tweet, this quote from Farage about why he didn't attend would be the line I'd take: "There was no legal role, no legislative role in that committee whatsoever, you couldn't do a thing. It was pointless."
It is pointless to be informed about the state of things and discuss those things with colleagues? Perhaps that is the basis of how several like-minded MEPs might propose some kind of legal or legislative action in whatever body is appropriate for doing so.

No, the problem is Nigel Farage is a twatwaffle. Like many other politicians they have one goal: get in power. If successful they switch to: stay in power. That's it. It's a goal unto itself. Aimless megalomania or a little graft, both would certainly see sitting through some droll meeting where you might *cringe* learn something or *gag* build relationships with peers from other countries as "pointless."

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Old 24th January 2020, 03:02 AM   #2529
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Once again, it's clear that the government are making up Brexit policy on the fly. A few days ago the Chancellor was clear that the UK would be diverging from EU standards immediately. This gave UK business the screaming abdabs.

Now, after being buttonholed at Davos by worried business leaders, he has "clarified" the position.

Quote:
Business leaders have welcomed what they call a clarification of the government's view that there would be "no alignment" with EU rules in a post-Brexit trade deal with the EU.

Chancellor Sajid Javid said the UK would use the power to diverge from Europe only when it was in the interests of business.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51228818

It seems like he's engaging in some doublespeak:

Quote:
Answering questions from UK chief executives at a Davos lunch, Mr Javid said that although the UK could not be a rule taker, for democratic reasons, "it doesn't mean we will diverge for the sake of it".
The UK won't be a rule taker, we'll simply won't diverge from them
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Old 24th January 2020, 03:48 AM   #2530
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Tory MP for Dover wants a fireworks display visible from France and ‘We love the UK’ banner on White Cliffs of Dover for Brexit day.

Quote:
A Conservative MP has called for Brexit to be marked next week with a firework display that can be seen from France and a huge banner hanging from the White Cliffs of Dover.

Natalie Elphicke, the MP for Dover, has urged the UK to celebrate its exit from the European Union by hanging a banner displaying the words “We love the UK” on 31 January... Ms Elphicke has said her proposal is an opportunity to use the Brexit date “to share our positive message about Britain and the future we can make”.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9298801.html

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Old 24th January 2020, 03:50 AM   #2531
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Once again, it's clear that the government are making up Brexit policy on the fly. A few days ago the Chancellor was clear that the UK would be diverging from EU standards immediately. This gave UK business the screaming abdabs.

Now, after being buttonholed at Davos by worried business leaders, he has "clarified" the position.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51228818

It seems like he's engaging in some doublespeak:



The UK won't be a rule taker, we'll simply won't diverge from them
This week. Next week? Who knows which way the wind blows...
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Old 24th January 2020, 04:51 AM   #2532
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Does the UK even have a fisheries department staffed with marine biologists experienced in monitoring populations and setting quota’s accordingly?
I think you're putting the cart before the horse.

Does the UK even know what a fisheries department does?

I think most would agree they do something in connected with fishing but are fuzzy on details. By fuzzy I mean oblivious, of course.

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Old 24th January 2020, 07:11 AM   #2533
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. They didn't demand a transition period in which the EU would maintain control even after separation.
I disagree. Brexiters would not have voted for it if the UK lost the benefits of being in the EU immediately. If itís a compromise, itís a compromise they made amongst themselves because it was the only arrangement they could get enough Brexiters to vote for. No one other than Brexiters thinks itís a good idea.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And the fact that this deal may be preferable to them than remaining doesn't mean that they can't have any complaints about this deal.
Itís not actually a deal, itís just a window in which Brexiters hope to negotiate a deal. They negotiated a deal with the EU then voted against it because it wasnít what they wanted. Now they have decided to go ahead without a deal and hope to get one done before they lose the befits of being in the EU. If they didnít retain the benefits of being in the EU they probably would not have supported this arrangement either.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's fair to say, "Oh well" or "tough luck", or even "suck it" to those complaints, but the complaints themselves aren't contradictory.
How is it anyone elseís fault that this was the only option they could get their own supporters to vote for in sufficient numbers to do anything at all?
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Old 24th January 2020, 07:28 AM   #2534
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I think you're putting the cart before the horse.

Does the UK even know what a fisheries department does?

I think most would agree they do something in connected with fishing but are fuzzy on details. By fuzzy I mean oblivious, of course.

McHrozni
I take it as a given that the current UK government doesnít know what it does or why it would need one. This doesnít preclude the possibility one already exists though.
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Old 24th January 2020, 07:51 AM   #2535
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
I take it as a given that the current UK government doesnít know what it does or why it would need one. This doesnít preclude the possibility one already exists though.
Used to be MAFF but it went into DEFRA. There will be someone/ a team with responsibility but it will only be a tiny part of their job given the EU role. We will probably start off mirroring EU policy then will recruit folk to give it proper considerstoon. Brexit will be fantastic for wannabe bureaucrats funded by the hard working taxpayers. Nothing that a few percentage points on income tax can't cover.

Sovereignty- paying 28 times more for the same product but with a British rather than EU label.
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Old 24th January 2020, 08:11 AM   #2536
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The implementation period is only necessary because the EU's self-imposed stupid rules say that the EU will not negotiate a trade agreement until after a member country has already left the EU.

Without the stupid rules, we could have negotiated the trade deal and other future arrangements alongside the withdrawal agreement and got the whole thing done at the same time.

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Old 24th January 2020, 09:06 AM   #2537
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The implementation period is only necessary because the EU's self-imposed stupid rules say that the EU will not negotiate a trade agreement until after a member country has already left the EU.

Without the stupid rules, we could have negotiated the trade deal and other future arrangements alongside the withdrawal agreement and got the whole thing done at the same time.
There certainly is a lot of stupidity about.

The UK has so far "agreed" 20 trade deals. There is nothing to stop the UK or the EU agreeing a new trade deal before brexit. Signing deals to take effect before leaving the EU obviously can't happen as it would lead to arguements about which deal took priority.

The transition period was at the request of the UK recognising that trade deals take time.

The EU may prefer not to agree deals prior to a member state leaving but that is their choice. Arguably it would be stupid for the EU to facilitate countries leaving by negotiating future deals with members, it would also be a waste on money as members could negotiate then decide whether to leave.

As it is however the EU have been perfectly willing to discuss future trade with the UK. Indeed the transition period itself is an agreement the EU reached on future trade prior to the UK leaving the EU detailing the arrangements for after the UK leaves the EU.
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Old 24th January 2020, 09:16 AM   #2538
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
There certainly is a lot of stupidity about.

The UK has so far "agreed" 20 trade deals. There is nothing to stop the UK or the EU agreeing a new trade deal before brexit. Signing deals to take effect before leaving the EU obviously can't happen as it would lead to arguements about which deal took priority.

The transition period was at the request of the UK recognising that trade deals take time.

The EU may prefer not to agree deals prior to a member state leaving but that is their choice. Arguably it would be stupid for the EU to facilitate countries leaving by negotiating future deals with members, it would also be a waste on money as members could negotiate then decide whether to leave.

As it is however the EU have been perfectly willing to discuss future trade with the UK. Indeed the transition period itself is an agreement the EU reached on future trade prior to the UK leaving the EU detailing the arrangements for after the UK leaves the EU.
Itís also important to remember that you canít negotiate a trade deal without first knowing what the post Brexit for borders, customs, regulations, product standards, etc.
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Old 24th January 2020, 10:07 AM   #2539
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Itís also important to remember that you canít negotiate a trade deal without first knowing what the post Brexit for borders, customs, regulations, product standards, etc.
Those are minor details that are beneath the interest of our PM or his Cabinet.
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Old 24th January 2020, 10:16 AM   #2540
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
It’s also important to remember that you can’t negotiate a trade deal without first knowing what the post Brexit for borders, customs, regulations, product standards, etc.
I beg to differ. As interviews make clear Boris has negotiated a post brexit deal with no clue as to what the borders, customs, regulations, product standards he has negotiated are
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Old 24th January 2020, 11:51 AM   #2541
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I beg to differ. As interviews make clear Boris has negotiated a post brexit deal with no clue as to what the borders, customs, regulations, product standards he has negotiated are
He hasnít negotiated a trade deal yet.

Nor is he likely to because heíll be to busy complain that the EU wonít let him import cheap chicken form the US pay UK workers $4USD an hour to process it and sell the finished product to the EU.
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Old 24th January 2020, 12:24 PM   #2542
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
He hasn’t negotiated a trade deal yet. .
I meant he doesn't understand the N Ireland transition deal arrangements.
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Old 25th January 2020, 10:33 AM   #2543
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The US wants to agree a post-Brexit trade deal with the UK this year, the country's treasury secretary has said.

Quote:
After meeting Chancellor Sajid Javid in London, Steve Mnuchin said he believed the UK could negotiate trade deals with the US and EU at the same time.

"I'm quite optimistic," he told a Chatham House think tank event.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51250235
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Old 25th January 2020, 11:57 AM   #2544
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
The US wants to agree a post-Brexit trade deal with the UK this year, the country's treasury secretary has said.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51250235
Of course they do, who doesn't want to be a customer at a fire sale ?
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Old 25th January 2020, 01:30 PM   #2545
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https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/202...johnson-s-trad

ETA:
Quote:
Brexit 2020: Everything you need to know about Boris Johnson's trade deal nightmare
TLDR: It's really not looking pretty and Johnson is going to end up tarnished with it - either pushing ahead with the disaster, which he will own, or backing down on key parts.
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Last edited by jimbob; 25th January 2020 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 25th January 2020, 05:44 PM   #2546
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He will be minted, he won't care.
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Old 26th January 2020, 12:01 AM   #2547
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Talking of minted, I note that the government is concentrating on the important aspects of Brexit such as the commemorative coin.

Also, does anyone else think that having a VE bank holiday this year in place of the usual international workers' day one is more example of Little Englander tub-thumping ?

Last edited by The Don; 26th January 2020 at 01:39 AM.
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Old 26th January 2020, 12:05 AM   #2548
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/202...johnson-s-trad

ETA:

TLDR: It's really not looking pretty and Johnson is going to end up tarnished with it - either pushing ahead with the disaster, which he will own, or backing down on key parts.
Never underestimate the power and reach of the right wing propaganda machine. Negative outcomes will either be ignored and/or blamed on a combination of horrible foreigners, Remoaner fifth-columnists or factors which couldn't possibly have been anticipated ahead of time.
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Old 26th January 2020, 05:22 AM   #2549
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Never underestimate the power and reach of the right wing propaganda machine. Negative outcomes will either be ignored and/or blamed on a combination of horrible foreigners, Remoaner fifth-columnists or factors which couldn't possibly have been anticipated ahead of time.
You are forgetting their other favourite, lose an election right before the economy tanks and blame Labour when it does.
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Old 27th January 2020, 01:54 AM   #2550
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Quite a lot more Brexit news over the weekend.

In order to mitigate the worst effects of removing free movement, the government is proposing fast track visas for scientists:

Quote:
A fast-track UK visa for scientists, mathematicians and researchers will be launched next month, the prime minister has said.

The Global Talent visa will be open from 20 February to those who work in a qualifying field and have been endorsed by a recognised UK body.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51258068

The UK is aiming for a "zero tariff, zero quota Brexit". This is perfectly possible if the UK accepts any and all EU rules - a rapid and complete U-turn from last week's "We'll deviate from EU rules ASAP" posturing.

Quote:
The government is aiming to secure a "zero tariff, zero quota" free trade deal with the EU, Brexit Secretary Stephen Barclay has said.

He told the BBC's Andrew Marr the UK would not diverge from current EU trade regulations "for the sake of it".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51255528

Meanwhile Leo Varadkar is applying a dose of reality:

Quote:
Leo Varadkar compared the two sides to football teams, suggesting the EU would have the "stronger team" due to its larger population and market.

He also suggested that Britain misjudged the first phase of Brexit.

It comes as the Taoiseach is due to meet the EU's chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, in Dublin.

In an interview with BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg, days before Britain is due to leave the EU, Mr Varadkar also warned against any attempt by the UK to get a "piecemeal" deal with the EU.

"When I hear people talk about piecemeal, it sounds a bit like cake and eat," he said.

"That isn't something that will fly in Europe."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51260282
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Old 27th January 2020, 05:13 AM   #2551
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A zero tariff, zero quota agreement is a customs union but with full custom's paperwork and checks. So much cheaper to have a customs union.
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Old 27th January 2020, 06:14 AM   #2552
The Don
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
A zero tariff, zero quota agreement is a customs union but with full custom's paperwork and checks. So much cheaper to have a customs union.
And it would require those goods and services to comply with EU rules and regulations but with no influence on those rules - so much for the UK not being a "rule taker".

IMO this is just yet another example of Brexiteers having no clue about the realities of international trade and running smack-back into the brick wall of reality.
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Old 27th January 2020, 06:44 AM   #2553
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
And it would require those goods and services to comply with EU rules and regulations but with no influence on those rules - so much for the UK not being a "rule taker".

IMO this is just yet another example of Brexiteers having no clue about the realities of international trade and running smack-back into the brick wall of reality.
Part of which might be realising they've been had by a scheming liar and are stuck with him for the best part of 5 years?
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Old 27th January 2020, 10:20 AM   #2554
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Sad news, the "bong campaign" fundraiser failed to meet its £500k target.

Quote:
Campaigners have officially ended a crowdfunding appeal which was raising money to make Big Ben's bell ring to mark Brexit day.

The StandUp4Brexit group says the £272,000 raised will instead go to veterans' charity Help for Heroes.

They say efforts to persuade House of Commons authorities to accept the donation have been "unsuccessful".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51271287

The good news is that the money will go to charity instead. Is that allowed ?
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Old 27th January 2020, 10:32 AM   #2555
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Sad news, the "bong campaign" fundraiser failed to meet its £500k target.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51271287

The good news is that the money will go to charity instead. Is that allowed ?
Not sure of UK regulations, but that sounds similar to how such entities in the states liquidate and wind down. Organizations that take in "contributions" have specific ways they can spend or discharge that cash. Donations (different than contributions) made to charitable organizations are one of the least restricted and limited options they have.
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Old 27th January 2020, 10:35 AM   #2556
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Meanwhile Leo Varadkar is applying a dose of reality:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51260282
As you can imagine, the most popular comments below that article are short on fact and long on spittle-flecked spite against Varadkar, Ireland, the EU and any hint of reality.
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Old 27th January 2020, 01:29 PM   #2557
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I think you're putting the cart before the horse.

Does the UK even know what a fisheries department does?

I think most would agree they do something in connected with fishing but are fuzzy on details. By fuzzy I mean oblivious, of course.

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It now knows what a narwhal tusk is.
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Old 27th January 2020, 01:39 PM   #2558
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Not sure of UK regulations, but that sounds similar to how such entities in the states liquidate and wind down. Organizations that take in "contributions" have specific ways they can spend or discharge that cash. Donations (different than contributions) made to charitable organizations are one of the least restricted and limited options they have.
That's an interesting issue. Seems to me the funds would need to be ring-fenced. There'll need to be a safeguard against misappropriation. In addition, if it now becomes a charitable donation rather than for a specific aim, then there is gift aid to be added on if you can, which'd mean getting a GA declaration from all those who donated. It'll need to give donors the option of a refund of their money.

Last edited by Vixen; 27th January 2020 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 27th January 2020, 03:11 PM   #2559
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's an interesting issue. Seems to me the funds would need to be ring-fenced. There'll need to be a safeguard against misappropriation. In addition, if it now becomes a charitable donation rather than for a specific aim, then there is gift aid to be added on if you can, which'd mean getting a GA declaration from all those who donated. It'll need to give donors the option of a refund of their money.
In our parlance only organizations with a certain kind of tax designation can be recipients of such donations.

Also, short of proving one was defrauded into making the contribution to the political advocacy organization, once the contribution is made, the person who made it doesn't have any further say in what is done with that money. Just like any other transaction.
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Old 27th January 2020, 03:21 PM   #2560
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It now knows what a narwhal tusk is.
Does "it"?

What does "it" refer to? UKGov? Pretty clear it can't find bum with both hands. So what "it"?
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