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Old 21st July 2009, 08:27 AM   #1
MarkyX
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9/11 Deniers using Wikipedia to create "Nano-thermite"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nano-thermite

Found this tidbit just recently. It was created on May 2009, but like many wikipedia entries, this is anonymous.

Are 9/11 deniers trying to perform circular logic while piggy backing on Wikipedia?
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Old 21st July 2009, 08:30 AM   #2
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I doubt it. This looks like it was written by somebody sane.

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Old 21st July 2009, 08:31 AM   #3
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I would think that but then I look at the TalkBack and already someone mentions 9/11.
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Old 21st July 2009, 09:18 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nano-thermite

Found this tidbit just recently. It was created on May 2009, but like many wikipedia entries, this is anonymous.

Are 9/11 deniers trying to perform circular logic while piggy backing on Wikipedia?
Inneresting. I read thru the article 'Nanoenergetics: And Emerging Technology of National Importance' in the publication listed in the references section (footnote 2) titled 'The Coming Revolution: Science and Technology of Nanoscale Structures'.

http://www.p2pays.org/ref/34/33115.pdf

According to the article, by Dr. Andrzej W. Miziolek, Weapons and Materials Research Directorate US Army Research Laboratory, as of the 2001 Symposium of Defense Applications of Nanomaterials (ACS San Diego), research and production of these Metastable Intermolecular Composites (MIC) ' is being performed in laboratories within all military services, as well as at Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL).'

So that narrows down the timeframe and possible sources for any materials hypothesized to have found their way into the WTC towers and WTC 7 - as alleged by certain members the 9/11 'truth' movement.

The paper doesn't specify how much of these materials had actually been produced, and over what time period. For example, even the production of Ultra Fine Grain Aluminum powders was an area of focus at LANL ('Drs. Wayne Danen and Steve Son, along with their colleagues') but '
The current state of UFG aluminum production is that this is an area that
still requires considerable effort.'

This indicates that it is not being produced in large (industrial?) quantities, and/or is very expensive to produce.

Side note: The average size of the UFG aluminum particles was 35 nanometers. Does this compare at all to the famous Red-Grey chips found in WTC dust?

Referring to the Jones/Harrit Red-Grey chips, the material's distribution in 9/11 dust indicates that it was present in large quantities - this does not seem consistent with the state of R&D described in the Miziolek paper.

Another R&D source listed was ' Indian Head Division of the Naval
Surface Warfare Center (NSWC/IH). This work is being performed by Dr. Magdy Bichay, Pam Carpenter, and Tom Devendorf along with other co-workers'

And Sol-Gels, a favored candidate proposed by Dr. Steven Jones, were being studied and produced by 'Researchers at LLNL, Drs. Randall Simpson, Alexander Gash, et al., have pioneered the use of the sol-gel method as a new way of making nanostructured composite energetic materials.' (Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory)

It seems as though, around the year 2001, there were very few sources for research and production of nanothermites, almost all of them military. It would be interesting to get some comments from these researchers about the composition of the Red-Grey chips - they must've known more about nanothermites than almost anybody else at that time, and presumably would be qualified to judge whether there was any merit in the 9/11 'truth' claims.

I'm quite sure that most, if not all, of these military scientists are working hard to protect America, and would be absolutely horrified if any of their work had been misused to attack American citizens on their own soil....by their own government, no less.

To me at least, it still seems terribly far-fetched to imagine that such exotic and difficult-to-obtain materials (easily traced back to the government, btw) would have been used by saboteurs in place of commercially available, proven explosives.
Further, as they have never been used by any demolition professionals as cutting charges, where would these methods have been developed? US government efforts are focused on weapons development, which is pretty far removed from conventional building demolition (you could drop a bomb on a building, I guess).
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Old 21st July 2009, 09:40 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
Inneresting. I read thru the article 'Nanoenergetics: And Emerging Technology of National Importance' in the publication listed in the references section (footnote 2) titled 'The Coming Revolution: Science and Technology of Nanoscale Structures'.

http://www.p2pays.org/ref/34/33115.pdf

According to the article, by Dr. Andrzej W. Miziolek, Weapons and Materials Research Directorate US Army Research Laboratory, as of the 2001 Symposium of Defense Applications of Nanomaterials (ACS San Diego), research and production of these Metastable Intermolecular Composites (MIC) ' is being performed in laboratories within all military services, as well as at Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL).'

So that narrows down the timeframe and possible sources for any materials hypothesized to have found their way into the WTC towers and WTC 7 - as alleged by certain members the 9/11 'truth' movement.

The paper doesn't specify how much of these materials had actually been produced, and over what time period. For example, even the production of Ultra Fine Grain Aluminum powders was an area of focus at LANL ('Drs. Wayne Danen and Steve Son, along with their colleagues') but '
The current state of UFG aluminum production is that this is an area that
still requires considerable effort.'

This indicates that it is not being produced in large (industrial?) quantities, and/or is very expensive to produce.

Side note: The average size of the UFG aluminum particles was 35 nanometers. Does this compare at all to the famous Red-Grey chips found in WTC dust?

Referring to the Jones/Harrit Red-Grey chips, the material's distribution in 9/11 dust indicates that it was present in large quantities - this does not seem consistent with the state of R&D described in the Miziolek paper.

Another R&D source listed was ' Indian Head Division of the Naval
Surface Warfare Center (NSWC/IH). This work is being performed by Dr. Magdy Bichay, Pam Carpenter, and Tom Devendorf along with other co-workers'

And Sol-Gels, a favored candidate proposed by Dr. Steven Jones, were being studied and produced by 'Researchers at LLNL, Drs. Randall Simpson, Alexander Gash, et al., have pioneered the use of the sol-gel method as a new way of making nanostructured composite energetic materials.' (Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory)

It seems as though, around the year 2001, there were very few sources for research and production of nanothermites, almost all of them military. It would be interesting to get some comments from these researchers about the composition of the Red-Grey chips - they must've known more about nanothermites than almost anybody else at that time, and presumably would be qualified to judge whether there was any merit in the 9/11 'truth' claims.

I'm quite sure that most, if not all, of these military scientists are working hard to protect America, and would be absolutely horrified if any of their work had been misused to attack American citizens on their own soil....by their own government, no less.

To me at least, it still seems terribly far-fetched to imagine that such exotic and difficult-to-obtain materials (easily traced back to the government, btw) would have been used by saboteurs in place of commercially available, proven explosives.
Further, as they have never been used by any demolition professionals as cutting charges, where would these methods have been developed? US government efforts are focused on weapons development, which is pretty far removed from conventional building demolition (you could drop a bomb on a building, I guess).
i never thought that the chips should be considered "nano" anything
they measured them on a 1mm and micrometer scales
nano is way smaller

example


the scale on the bottom is 20 micrometers
20 micrometers = 20,000 nanometers

from my understanding of what you said above
the nanothermite the army developed is a 35nm part of iron attaching itself to a 35nm piece of aluminum (basically)
this would essentially represent the "chip"

am i wrong or right?
the scale part always bothered me about the nanocrapola paper but i wasnt sure
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Old 21st July 2009, 09:48 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Justin39640 View Post
i never thought that the chips should be considered "nano" anything
they measured them on a 1mm and micrometer scales
nano is way smaller

example
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...r/911/04-1.jpg

the scale on the bottom is 20 micrometers
20 micrometers = 20,000 nanometers

from my understanding of what you said above
the nanothermite the army developed is a 35nm part of iron attaching itself to a 35nm piece of aluminum (basically)
this would essentially represent the "chip"

am i wrong or right?
the scale part always bothered me about the nanocrapola paper but i wasnt sure
The average size of aluminum particles was 35 nanometers in the paper. It's not the size of the chips, but the grains or particles of materials that would be of direct relevance.

I'll have to go back to the sunstealer thread for more info...
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Old 21st July 2009, 09:53 AM   #7
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They are re-writing history...and doesn't "nano" thermite just sound more cool.

TAM
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Old 21st July 2009, 09:58 AM   #8
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Tam,

I think they went with that, because Hush-A-Boom just sounds too childish!!

Kinda like, Insta-Goalposts!!
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Old 21st July 2009, 10:01 AM   #9
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I personally like Invisi-crete myself.

TAM
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Old 21st July 2009, 10:05 AM   #10
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You can flag the article, and offer a suggestion that it be joined with the normal thermite article, and put a section in the thermite article as "Myth" and have nano-thermite under that section ^_^
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Old 21st July 2009, 10:23 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
The average size of aluminum particles was 35 nanometers in the paper. It's not the size of the chips, but the grains or particles of materials that would be of direct relevance.

I'll have to go back to the sunstealer thread for more info...
that was the part i wasnt sure about
but at the same time isnt nano meaning the interaction is at the nano scale
not 2 regions of particles next to each other?

ETA: bill smith actually posted a video once that was very interesting (but completely off topic and irrelevant) that showed nanomotors with an armature of a few nanometers (maybe a few hundred)
by that example i thought nanothermite should be working in the same scale

i mean heck i can take a DC motor and say its a nano motor cause its made up of countless particles
where does that end?
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Last edited by Justin39640; 21st July 2009 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 21st July 2009, 11:51 AM   #12
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Wikipedia is closest thing to peer review they can get.
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Old 21st July 2009, 12:39 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Wikipedia is closest thing to peer review they can get.
I was about to write a snark in response, starting something like "Not true; when they shell out cash...". But then I stopped and thought about it; Wikipedia's "peer" review (in reality, chaotic fights over edits, a.k.a. "internet anarchy" ) probably is more accurate than Bentham Open Access's. Which ain't sayin' much, I admit, but really. Stop and think about it.
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Old 21st July 2009, 01:14 PM   #14
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Why yes, it was meant as a slam at Bentham.
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Old 21st July 2009, 03:26 PM   #15
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H and Tam.

I don't think that an entry i wikipedia that was filled with computer generated gibberish would last very long....

that is just me though... (shrug)
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Old 21st July 2009, 03:50 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by TruthersLie View Post
H and Tam.

I don't think that an entry i wikipedia that was filled with computer generated gibberish would last very long....

that is just me though... (shrug)
Gibberish? certainly u don't deny the xistence of superdupernanomicroinvisothermite? do you???

TAM
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Old 21st July 2009, 04:20 PM   #17
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super duper nano (it will clean your room, fold your laundry, get you a girlfriend, make julian fries, fill up the car with gas, pick up after the dog and do your homework) thermite?

I want to know where to get some... cuz it does whatever you want, whenever you want it and is apparently easy to handle too... (something there about things sounding too good to be true and all)

I was comparing the computer generated gibberish which passed the "peer review" (read "did the check clear?") of one Bentham Open Journal (snicker) and wikipedia.

I just love how twoofs don't realize there is a HISTORY funciton which shows you who edited it and when...
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Old 21st July 2009, 04:33 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by TruthersLie View Post
super duper nano (it will clean your room, fold your laundry, get you a girlfriend, make julian fries, fill up the car with gas, pick up after the dog and do your homework) thermite?

I want to know where to get some... cuz it does whatever you want, whenever you want it and is apparently easy to handle too... (something there about things sounding too good to be true and all)

I was comparing the computer generated gibberish which passed the "peer review" (read "did the check clear?") of one Bentham Open Journal (snicker) and wikipedia.

I just love how twoofs don't realize there is a HISTORY funciton which shows you who edited it and when...
I know what you were comparing. I am agreeing with you. I hope you haven't mistaken me for truther (dear god). Take a look at some of my 16,000 posts and it will be clear.

TAM
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Old 21st July 2009, 05:19 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nano-thermite

Found this tidbit just recently. It was created on May 2009 [...]

Actually, the revision history goes back to November 1, 2005.
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Old 21st July 2009, 05:58 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
I know what you were comparing. I am agreeing with you. I hope you haven't mistaken me for truther (dear god). Take a look at some of my 16,000 posts and it will be clear.

TAM
Only 16,000 posts? Cat got you tongue?
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Old 21st July 2009, 07:19 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
I know what you were comparing. I am agreeing with you. I hope you haven't mistaken me for truther (dear god). Take a look at some of my 16,000 posts and it will be clear.

TAM

I am 99% sure TL is referring to this, and saying that even Wikipedia would not be so gullible. In other words, he/she is agreeing with what we both said.
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Old 1st August 2009, 01:18 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
They are re-writing history...and doesn't "nano" thermite just sound more cool.

TAM
Nano is to a worrying extent a buzzword to gain funding. This results to it being tacked onto rather a worring range of subjects.
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Old 1st August 2009, 01:22 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
I know what you were comparing. I am agreeing with you. I hope you haven't mistaken me for truther (dear god). Take a look at some of my 16,000 posts and it will be clear.

TAM
Sorry tam.

I didn't see your reply.

I am a he. And I was referring to the other article of computer generated gibberish which was accepted for publication.

I fully realize that you are NOT a truther.
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Old 1st August 2009, 01:32 PM   #24
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Truthers love nanothermite, because they can say anything about it and it normally can't comprehensively debunked because there is so little known about the substance. There are no nanochemists coming out to debunk anything.
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Old 1st August 2009, 03:30 PM   #25
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Actually when the Twoofers talk about nanothermite it's up to them to prove it exists and was used on 9/11, alas, they can't do that so they resort to hand waving and frothing at the mouth.
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Old 1st August 2009, 08:28 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by TruthersLie View Post
I am a he.
Well, DUH! Women posting here are the (very attractive and winsome) exception, right?
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Old 1st August 2009, 10:59 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
Well, DUH! Women posting here are the (very attractive and winsome) exception, right?

Heh, you might be surprised at the percentage of women posting in this subforum. Yes, we are still a minority, but there are at least three of us in this very thread.
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Old 1st August 2009, 11:02 PM   #28
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I'm one of the three.
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Old 2nd August 2009, 01:09 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Audible Click View Post
Actually when the Twoofers talk about nanothermite it's up to them to prove it exists and was used on 9/11, alas, they can't do that so they resort to hand waving and frothing at the mouth.
Audible.

Generally they bring up the ampitac article and then try to say SEEEEE here is a DOD document from 2002 talking about it. They MUST have had it before then.

Of course when you read it (like with all twoof "proof") you find that there are numerous GLARING issues with their assumptions.

(mainly from their piss poor reading comprehension skills)
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Old 2nd August 2009, 03:10 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Audible Click View Post
I'm one of the three.
And just for the record (and for the hundredth time) I am not.

I don't mind being called "Stella" though...
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Old 2nd August 2009, 10:33 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
And just for the record (and for the hundredth time) I am not.

I don't mind being called "Stella" though...
You asked for it.

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Old 13th August 2009, 09:44 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nano-thermite

Found this tidbit just recently. It was created on May 2009, but like many wikipedia entries, this is anonymous.

Are 9/11 deniers trying to perform circular logic while piggy backing on Wikipedia?
Nope, it was created in 2005, most of the work has been done by pseudonymous editors,[1] it’s well sourced[2] and they’re on the lookout for Twoof abuse.[3]

It isn’t a good article, but isn’t a Twoof piece either.
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Old 13th August 2009, 10:10 AM   #33
newton3376
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Originally Posted by TheDaver View Post
Nope, it was created in 2005, most of the work has been done by pseudonymous editors,[1] it’s well sourced[2] and they’re on the lookout for Twoof abuse.[3]

It isn’t a good article, but isn’t a Twoof piece either.
I'm not sure how good one can expect such an article to be though....."nano thermite" is likely still in the development stage as far as practical uses for it.

The uses the military is likely interested in have little to do with building demolition anyway....
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Old 14th August 2009, 01:46 PM   #34
George 152
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I've just seen a news item where they are erecting the first major steel beam for the new building.
Its painted dull red just the same colour as the 'thermite' paint chips.
Why aren't the 911 conspiracy theorists taking scrapings from that beam to be tested?
Could it be that they know their 'thermite' claims are nonsense but don't want to let go of a cash cow?
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