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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 22nd October 2019, 05:28 PM   #601
Rolfe
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If this is true, then the Russians and the Chinese are going to dominate all the women's events within a few olympiads. Not that Europe and the Americas won't try. I just don't think that even modern western wokeness can compete with good old fashioned national chauvinism.

I understand the South Africans have employed a coach to scout for intersex babies being brought up as girls who might have potential as top athletes because they're really biologically male. Like Caster Semenya. (In countries with better neonatal care such infants would be brought up as boys these days.) They might as well call off the hunt because it will be much easier just to "persuade" a few second-string men to transition.

I'm not going to predict which countries are going to be at the forefront of this, but women's sports are going to be a thing of the past. In the name of the great God "inclusion", women will be excluded from their own events.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 09:12 PM   #602
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Interesting stories. I'm glad to hear that creepy JY lost her lawsuit and has been ordered to pay three of the defendants.

Here's another story though:

YouTuber ContraPoints Attacked After Including Controversial Buck Angel in Video

ContraPoints is a youtube channel I recently started watching. It's videos produced by a trans woman named Natalie Wynn. She has help, and her videos tend to have pretty good production values for YouTube. I guess she's a bit controversial in the trans community, however.

Quote:
YouTuber Natalie "Contrapoints" Wynn is currently embroiled in a wave of dissent and harassment after her newest video featured Buck Angel, a controversial figure in the transgender and nonbinary community.

By featuring Angel, some online have accused Wynn of enabling his exclusionary ideology, going so far as to label her as a "truscum" or "transmedicalist," which are people who believe gender transitioning through medical means is the only way to be considered transgender.
I looked up these terms:
Quote:
truscum (plural truscum) (slang, usually derogatory) A person (often transgender) who adheres to a strict medical definition of transgenderism/transsexuality and believes that gender dysphoria is an essential trait.
Quote:
Transmedicalism is a term for a wide range of beliefs in the transsexual community that are critical of transgender people who are not, or do not desire to be, transsexual.
(Having watched many of Wynn's videos, I don't think either of these terms applies to her beliefs. Perhaps they do apply to Buck Angel; I don't know what his beliefs are.)
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Old 23rd October 2019, 08:30 AM   #603
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Here's another story though:

YouTuber ContraPoints Attacked After Including Controversial Buck Angel in Video

ContraPoints is a youtube channel I recently started watching. It's videos produced by a trans woman named Natalie Wynn. She has help, and her videos tend to have pretty good production values for YouTube. I guess she's a bit controversial in the trans community, however.
Haven't they called her a TERF yet?
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Old 23rd October 2019, 01:27 PM   #604
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They've certainly been calling Buck Angel a TERF.

I don't think Buck Angel is terribly bright. She was doing her usual "tranpa" thing, sage advice to young women wanting to transition, and she came across some TRA stuff she (quite rightly) recognised as harmful and said so. I just happened to read her twitter timeline at that point. She was completely taken aback by the vitriolic backlash that came at her, and didn't know how to deal with it. Last seen trying some sort of damage limitation, who me I'm a real trans ally of course I am, without much sign of understanding what was going on or analysing the situation. Well-meaning, quite sweet really, but not smart.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 04:27 PM   #605
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If this is true, then the Russians and the Chinese are going to dominate all the women's events within a few olympiads. Not that Europe and the Americas won't try. I just don't think that even modern western wokeness can compete with good old fashioned national chauvinism.

You think China may be testing the boundaries with this one?

Women’s 400m runners go viral on Chinese social media ‘for looking like men’
Quote:
They were part of the 4x400m relay and their Hunan team strolled to gold by almost three seconds. Liao also won the 400m with Tong taking bronze.
Their 400 meter times are still slower than the minimum for the Olympics.

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Old 23rd October 2019, 04:32 PM   #606
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Quote:
You think China may be testing the boundaries with this one?

Oh, I rather think so, don't you? I saw that at the time on Twitter and without getting into the detail of that debate. I mean, come ON. Only one of these people looks like someone devoid of an SRY gene, to my eye (and most other people's eyes too, as I recall).
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Old 23rd October 2019, 04:58 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Oh, I rather think so, don't you? I saw that at the time on Twitter and without getting into the detail of that debate. I mean, come ON. Only one of these people looks like someone devoid of an SRY gene, to my eye (and most other people's eyes too, as I recall).
I saw that the state-run China Peoples Daily followed the reactions to the photo and asked what people thought about it. Sounded like an informal poll on public opinion.
Hard to believe there was even debate on it. Quite bold of them really.

In the end, China sent a traditional 'conforming' team to represent in Doha for a spot in Tokyo 2020 (which they fumbled badly)

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Old 23rd October 2019, 05:00 PM   #608
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I see two men and two women. They are all allegedly women?
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Old 23rd October 2019, 05:06 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I see two men and two women. They are all allegedly women?
Yes. From a facebook post by People's Daily, China:

Quote:
A picture of 4 athletes, who won the Women's 4x400 Relay at the annual Chinese Athletics Championships, has become a trending topic on Chinese social media. The gender of 2 athletes in Hunan team, Liao and Tong (in the middle of the first pic), was called into question. Lots of netizens say judging from how they look or how they speak it’s hard to tell that Liao and Tong are women. The Chinese Athletic Association later announced that both athletes are women. What’s your take on this?
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Old 23rd October 2019, 05:24 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I see two men and two women. They are all allegedly women?

Look closer. Three men and one woman.

However, since it has been the stated position of many in this thread, and it is the legal position in countries such as Canada, that any man who says he is a woman, or feels like a woman in his head (whatever the hell a woman feels like, how would I know) is literally actually a woman, this is going to be an interesting point to argue.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 06:10 PM   #611
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Look closer. Three men and one woman.
The person on the far right of the photograph looks like a woman to me.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 06:23 PM   #612
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
The person on the far right of the photograph looks like a woman to me.
The person on the far right looks ambiguous to me. Put the face on a female body and I could believe it's just a masculine looking woman. Put the face on a male body and I could believe it's just a feminine looking man.

But two of those, yeah.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 08:54 PM   #613
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I see two men and two women. They are all allegedly women?
That's my impression as well.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 09:23 PM   #614
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Maybe we're all just bad, sexist people for having sexist assumptions about how a woman should look. Maybe they don't mind being mistaken for men. Maybe they prefer it that way. The Chinese Athletic Association claims that they are indeed both women. Did they clarify that means regular two X chromosomes women? Or did they just say they're women and leave it at that?
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Old 23rd October 2019, 09:28 PM   #615
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Look closer. Three men and one woman.
I sorta see what you mean, but the third one's more ambiguous. Most people have focused on just two of them. If I passed them on the street, I wouldn't even wonder. Large heads, square jaws, men's hairstyles, men's-style glasses on one.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 10:49 PM   #616
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Maybe we're all just bad, sexist people for having sexist assumptions about how a woman should look. Maybe they don't mind being mistaken for men. Maybe they prefer it that way. The Chinese Athletic Association claims that they are indeed both women. Did they clarify that means regular two X chromosomes women? Or did they just say they're women and leave it at that?
Your question makes me realize that I actually do not know if any 'official' Chinese statement was made. Several reporters and some commenters 'seem' to know they are competing as women and what the Chinese stated.

Maybe the whole thing is a viral hoax to get people to defend actual men, who present fully as men, as women.

Do you read Chinese? haha
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Old 23rd October 2019, 11:08 PM   #617
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Your question makes me realize that I actually do not know if any 'official' Chinese statement was made. Several reporters and some commenters 'seem' to know they are competing as women and what the Chinese stated.

Maybe the whole thing is a viral hoax to get people to defend actual men, who present fully as men, as women.

Do you read Chinese? haha
I don't. That's what it says in the article you linked to though. I'm assuming what's being reported is accurate, and not part of any hoax. There's a youtube video of them being interviewed at what looks like a sports stadium. If it's a hoax they really went to a lot of trouble to make everything look very real. I think it's real.

They could just be unusual looking women after all.
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Old 24th October 2019, 05:57 AM   #618
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Just for fun

https://twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath/s...81785813475328
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Old 24th October 2019, 06:36 AM   #619
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Quite a good view of the beer belly too. McKinnon is not fit, no matter how much he talks about his training regime and so on. He's flabby. And he's still beating hard-as-nails women who have been doing this sport for many years longer than he has.
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Old 24th October 2019, 07:14 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Quite a good view of the beer belly too. McKinnon is not fit, no matter how much he talks about his training regime and so on. He's flabby. And he's still beating hard-as-nails women who have been doing this sport for many years longer than he has.
Difficult to imagine that "she" has got as far as "she" has without some serious behind-the-scenes greasing of "her" career in the form of directives issued on how it's reported in the corporate media.

As I've said before (yeh, yeh, I know - 'conspiracies' is that-a-way ===>), I perceive a long game, a social engineering project with clear objectives is behind the apparent madness, and this unbelievably shameless ***** is just another tool (knowing or not).
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Old 24th October 2019, 07:17 AM   #621
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Difficult to imagine that "she" has got as far as "she" has without some serious behind-the-scenes greasing of "her" career in the form of directives issued on how it's reported in the corporate media.



As I've said before (yeh, yeh, I know - 'conspiracies' is that-a-way ===>), I perceive a long game, a social engineering project with clear objectives is behind the apparent madness, and this unbelievably shameless ***** is just another tool (knowing or not).
Doesn't have to be a conspiracy theory. Who's issuing the directives?
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Old 24th October 2019, 07:53 AM   #622
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This is all fairly well-known and well-understood. This is one interesting article.

https://thefederalist.com/2018/02/20...nder-ideology/

I've read stuff about an overall aim to promote "transhumanism", that is to decouple our consciousness from our bodies and load it into machines (I think) and about paedophile interests being strongly behind this because if young children can consent to changing their sex why can't they consent to sex, and also the prurient interest some have in the perpetual adolescence of the puberty-blocked boy/woman or girl/man.

A lot of that sounds quite far-fetched and I'm not sure I buy into it but at the same time it seems difficult to refute.
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Old 24th October 2019, 12:54 PM   #623
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I sorta see what you mean, but the third one's more ambiguous. Most people have focused on just two of them. If I passed them on the street, I wouldn't even wonder. Large heads, square jaws, men's hairstyles, men's-style glasses on one.

The female seems to have the name "FOO" on her shirt and she's wearing the grey shirt in the lower picture. The whole body shape needs to be looked at. And lets just say the one that seems to have the name "YANG" on the shirt needs to do a better job of tucking.

Though I agree, the entire thing could be one big elaborate troll.
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Old 24th October 2019, 01:04 PM   #624
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While I think there are valid concerns, speculating about someone's gender based on their appearance seems unnecessary. Even kind of offensive.

Speculate based on the Chinese propaganda storyline, instead.
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Old 24th October 2019, 01:21 PM   #625
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I'm not speculating about their gender I'm speculating about their sex. Which is kinda obvious really. Since they're (allegedly) participating in a female athletics event, I think noting and remarking on their sex is pretty relevant.
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Old 24th October 2019, 01:23 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
While I think there are valid concerns, speculating about someone's gender based on their appearance seems unnecessary.
Isn't this what gender presentationWP literally means, though?
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Old 24th October 2019, 01:41 PM   #627
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Who cares what their gender is? They're wearing running gear. They could be aporagender or maverique for all I care. It's their sex that's important as far as a women's athletics event is concerned, and it's entirely legitimate to observe that three of them are not women.
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Old 24th October 2019, 01:58 PM   #628
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm not speculating about their gender I'm speculating about their sex. Which is kinda obvious really. Since they're (allegedly) participating in a female athletics event, I think noting and remarking on their sex is pretty relevant.
Herp derp. I do not give even a single flying **** about the gender/sex distinction. If you don't know which I mean, and it's actually important to figure it out, ask me. If you do know which I mean, then kindly shut up and get to the point.

Which is... No. You're judging someone's sex based on their conformity to stereotypes of appearance. Noting and remarking on their sex is pretty relevant to the event organizers and the people with the training, access, and responsibility to confirm to the organizers that the competitors are eligible to compete. If you think they got it wrong, you need something a little less offensive than "Beth looks like a dude" to base your objection on.

Well, you don't strictly need something less offensive. Might be nice, though.
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Old 24th October 2019, 01:59 PM   #629
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Isn't this what gender presentationWP literally means, though?
I don't know, is it? If you have an argument to make, and you think that article supports it, then make your argument. Don't ask me about it.
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Old 24th October 2019, 02:13 PM   #630
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Who cares what their gender is? They're wearing running gear. They could be aporagender or maverique for all I care. It's their sex that's important as far as a women's athletics event is concerned, and it's entirely legitimate to observe that three of them are not women.
You're trying to infer sex from gendered appearance. You're not looking at primary sex characteristics, or even secondary sex characteristics.

And are you actually asian? I understand there's certainly Chinese living in Scotland, but are you Chinese?

I ask, because of the well-known cross-race effect. So I wonder how competent you actually are, to infer the sex of someone of a different race than yourself, from their apparent gender presentation.

Again, I think you raise some good points in this thread. I just very much disagree with you about the propriety of this particular line of argument.
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Old 24th October 2019, 02:48 PM   #631
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I can see the bloody bulge in their pants. Is that not good enough?


(It has surprised me from time to time in this debate how poor a lot of men seem to be at distinguishing someone's sex. I'm beginning to wonder if women have a more finely-honed perception of that.)
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Old 24th October 2019, 03:13 PM   #632
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I can see the bloody bulge in their pants. Is that not good enough?
In the video clip that was linked here? The quality isn't good enough for me to see anything in their pants.

Quote:
(It has surprised me from time to time in this debate how poor a lot of men seem to be at distinguishing someone's sex. I'm beginning to wonder if women have a more finely-honed perception of that.)
(Or maybe it's Dunning-Krueger. Or confirmation bias. Or rhetorical investment.)

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Old 24th October 2019, 03:21 PM   #633
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In the photos of them in running gear. I still think it might be an elaborate trolling hoax though.
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Old 24th October 2019, 03:23 PM   #634
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't know, is it? If you have an argument to make, and you think that article supports it, then make your argument. Don't ask me about it.
The argument is that gender expressionWP is all about appearances and behaviors which we use to signal our social role.

Seems a bit iffy to get all tetchy about trying to understand the visual cues which other people are trying to convey.
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Old 24th October 2019, 03:26 PM   #635
Puppycow
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're trying to infer sex from gendered appearance. You're not looking at primary sex characteristics, or even secondary sex characteristics.

And are you actually asian? I understand there's certainly Chinese living in Scotland, but are you Chinese?

I ask, because of the well-known cross-race effect. So I wonder how competent you actually are, to infer the sex of someone of a different race than yourself, from their apparent gender presentation.

Again, I think you raise some good points in this thread. I just very much disagree with you about the propriety of this particular line of argument.
Well it's obviously not the cross-race effect. If Rolfe were the only person to see it, we might consider that, but the according to the article other Chinese were questioning their sex first.
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I can see the bloody bulge in their pants. Is that not good enough?
Probably just a shadow.
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Old 24th October 2019, 03:49 PM   #636
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Who cares what their gender is? They're wearing running gear. They could be aporagender or maverique for all I care. It's their sex that's important as far as a women's athletics event is concerned, and it's entirely legitimate to observe that three of them are not women.
Looks like they are indeed female.

I found the video of their race in Japan, running with all the other females. (I had thought perhaps the team names were switched up between the 'mixed' events since some were newly added.) I don't think China would risk the embarrassment of Japan conducting a simple chromosome test.

I understand 'manly' women, or even bulked up steroid-infused women...but this seems to be on another level...as if female development was stunted and male hormones introduced at a young age. I think looking this way naturally would be a rarity.
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Old 26th October 2019, 08:23 AM   #637
Matthew Best
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I think Rolfe is going by the trouser bulge in the runner on the far left in this photo:


But it's less obvious in this photo so it may just be a shadow after all:
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Old 26th October 2019, 08:48 AM   #638
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I think Fu(?) being the only biological female of the four is even more obvious in that photo, but it hardly matters. (I wonder how long it took Yang to grow his hair that long?)
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Old 26th October 2019, 08:51 AM   #639
IsThisTheLife
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're trying to infer sex from gendered appearance. You're not looking at primary sex characteristics, or even secondary sex characteristics.

And are you actually asian? I understand there's certainly Chinese living in Scotland, but are you Chinese?

I ask, because of the well-known cross-race effect. So I wonder how competent you actually are, to infer the sex of someone of a different race than yourself, from their apparent gender presentation.

Again, I think you raise some good points in this thread. I just very much disagree with you about the propriety of this particular line of argument.
Hard to tell if you're trying to play at Devil's Advocate or just being a PITA contrarian.

I suggest you look up 'physiognomy' and 'physiology' in the context of human sexes; differences, for a start, particularly given you're trying to pick an argument with someone who's pretty expert in a biological field.
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Old 26th October 2019, 09:19 AM   #640
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The title of his doctoral thesis is something like "Why you don't have to know what you're talking about". I kid you not.

[delurk][ot]That's hilarious. I'm going to ask my major professor if I can use that for my master's thesis. But as it's on statistical quality control in the production of replacement shoulder joints, I doubt she'll agree. [/ot][/delurk]
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