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Tags mediums , psychics

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Old 15th November 2019, 12:24 PM   #161
alfaniner
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
That's just embarrassing.

Sounds like someone successfully proved he's a fraud and he has an ax to grind with the pesky science that brought him down.

We're talking about a guy who doesn't know the difference between a spirit and a ghost, and I don't buy the language barrier either. That knowledge is Woo-101. You'd think he'd take advantage of this forum to engage in an honest debate to, at the very least, understand the weakest parts of his argument and avoid them in later debates. We see this down in the conspiracy theory board where CTists focus on a narrow band of a conspiracy theory to attempt to prove their point while avoiding the whole picture which leads to the theory falling apart.
I don't know that I would make a distinction myself, except to say they're both BS.
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Old 15th November 2019, 01:31 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I don't know that I would make a distinction myself, except to say they're both BS.

Spirits and Ghosts ...... humm.

Yes I would like to a concise definition of both that would relieve confusion.
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Old 15th November 2019, 01:46 PM   #163
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Well, spirits are distilled, rather than just fermented, and typically have alcohol contents ranging from 20% to 80%.

Can't speak to ghosts, though.
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Old 15th November 2019, 01:54 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Well, spirits are distilled, rather than just fermented, and typically have alcohol contents ranging from 20% to 80%.

Can't speak to ghosts, though.
And my lord, how you go on and on speaking to spirits.
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Old 15th November 2019, 02:40 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Well, spirits are distilled, rather than just fermented, and typically have alcohol contents ranging from 20% to 80%.

Can't speak to ghosts, though.
Ghosts are caused by a horizontal offset of a duplicate video signal, usually a result of the same signal being received via two different paths, such that one is delayed.
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Old 15th November 2019, 04:32 PM   #166
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I find it hard to believe the medium drew a recognizable portrait.........
I am now going to show my amazing clairvoyant skills. Using just a pair of scissors and a sheet of black paper, I am going to draw a recognisable portrait of someone on the forum.

Here goes......


cut cut cut....snip...snip snip.....consult with spirits....... cut cut cut....snip...snip snip.....drink some spirits.......cut cut cut....snip...snip snip.....consult with spirits....... cut cut cut....snip...snip snip.....

Ta Da!

I have now drawn a recognisable portrait of every male member of the forum. Take that skeptics!!!!!!
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File Type: jpg silhouette portrait.jpg (9.9 KB, 175 views)
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Old 15th November 2019, 05:22 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
I am now going to show my amazing clairvoyant skills. Using just a pair of scissors and a sheet of black paper, I am going to draw a recognisable portrait of someone on the forum.

Here goes......


cut cut cut....snip...snip snip.....consult with spirits....... cut cut cut....snip...snip snip.....drink some spirits.......cut cut cut....snip...snip snip.....consult with spirits....... cut cut cut....snip...snip snip.....

Ta Da!

I have now drawn a recognisable portrait of every male member of the forum. Take that skeptics!!!!!!
Close. But my ears are bigger. Come to think of it, it does look amazingly like my dead brother. You are good!
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Old 15th November 2019, 06:17 PM   #168
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Not close for me. That figure has hair on top of his head.
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Old 15th November 2019, 06:20 PM   #169
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Not close for me. That figure has hair on top of his head.
I was careful to include your aura in the silhouette.
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Old 15th November 2019, 06:28 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Close. But my ears are bigger.
The spirits have spoken to me.
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Old 15th November 2019, 07:57 PM   #171
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Wrong color of eyes.
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Old 15th November 2019, 08:54 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I don't know that I would make a distinction myself, except to say they're both BS.
Treat it like Vulans and Romulans, they don't exist either but within the context of the Star Trek world they share common things but are very different.

Ghosts used to be living people who are either trapped or chose to "stay behind" for a variety of reasons.

Spirits were never human: demons, angels, succubi, fairies, leprechauns, harpies, and so on.

None of them are real so you guys don't need to know this stuff, but if you're some New Age crystal healer/psychic/spiritualist it's something you should know.

And yes, some paranormal researchers will split hairs on the definitions saying some spirits are "Elementals" (which don't exist either).
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Old 16th November 2019, 04:31 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Treat it like Vulans and Romulans, they don't exist either but within the context of the Star Trek world they share common things but are very different.

Ghosts used to be living people who are either trapped or chose to "stay behind" for a variety of reasons.

Spirits were never human: demons, angels, succubi, fairies, leprechauns, harpies, and so on.

None of them are real so you guys don't need to know this stuff, but if you're some New Age crystal healer/psychic/spiritualist it's something you should know.

And yes, some paranormal researchers will split hairs on the definitions saying some spirits are "Elementals" (which don't exist either).

While accepting that arguing about the definitions of fictional entities is ultimately futile...

Spirits: Supernatural entities that are either non-corporeal permanently or able to manifest from a non-corporeal state.

Ghost: A subset of spirits that also had, has or will have a non supernatural existence.
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Old 16th November 2019, 09:22 AM   #174
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The languages that derive from Latin seem to use their variant of spiritus when they need to talk about disembodied life, especially in the religious context. In those same contexts, German uses Geist universally, both as a secularish term for the agent of haunting, and in the trinitarian sense -- heiliger Geist.

Since English seems to have been composed by luring other languages into dark alleys and robbing them of bits of grammar, English uses both Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit relatively interchangeably for identifying the member of the Trinity. I honestly don't see a problem for a non English speaker to ask what nuances of meaning there might be between two words that we often interchange. And I have no objection to a taxonomy we might choose to impose, if we propose to have a discussion where any difference has meaning (even a hypothetical meaning).
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Old 16th November 2019, 09:36 AM   #175
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For a entity of any type to create a change in ambient temperature or appear on film or digital media it has to be a measurable force.
It has affected something be detected.

But yet believers claim they are somehow beyond sciences. Anomaly in equipment and a person " understanding " just what actually happened is more probable. Beliefs fill in missing data.
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Old 16th November 2019, 10:06 AM   #176
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I believe the word Ghosts applies to manifestations of a psychic energy trace left behind by people who passed that way, like ghosts walking the battlements of castles and the corridors of old houses. They may be seen by living people but the ghost will make no response if you try and interact with them, they just continue on their way. Because there is nobody there, just a trace of the energy they left behind.
But a spirit is a living entity, who is conscious and inhabits the spirit body.
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Old 16th November 2019, 10:19 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I believe the word Ghosts applies to manifestations of a psychic energy trace left behind by people who passed that way, like ghosts walking the battlements of castles and the corridors of old houses. They may be seen by living people but the ghost will make no response if you try and interact with them, they just continue on their way. Because there is nobody there, just a trace of the energy they left behind.
But a spirit is a living entity, who is conscious and inhabits the spirit body.
As far as an in-universe explanation of the difference goes, this doesn't seem too bad.
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Old 16th November 2019, 10:23 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
But a spirit is a living entity, who is conscious and inhabits the spirit body.
Does it eat and drink and poop and pee?
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Old 16th November 2019, 10:44 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Does it eat and drink and poop and pee?
I believe spirits can eat, and they absorb energy from such food as fruit.
But I have no inside info on the matter of excreting waste. I seem to have the idea they do not, but I can't remember where I got that from.
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Old 16th November 2019, 11:05 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
As far as an in-universe explanation of the difference goes, this doesn't seem too bad.
That's pretty much the "standard" in urban fantasy fiction (like Scorpion's fictional spirituality). Ghosts are usually "echos" and "psychic remnants" whilst spirits are usually at least partly conscious and interact with people.

It would be quite funny to think that that distinction grew out of English adopting two words rather than the one other languages use. Do most other languages only have a singular word for "ghosts/spirits"?
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Old 16th November 2019, 11:09 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I believe spirits can eat, and they absorb energy from such food as fruit.

But I have no inside info on the matter of excreting waste. I seem to have the idea they do not, but I can't remember where I got that from.
Well to be frank (not a dead person with a name beginning with a f, or a sound like a f or a v or a t or th) I suspect you got it from up where non-spiritual bodies excrete material waste.
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Old 16th November 2019, 11:09 AM   #182
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With regard to the opening post about a psychic drawing of a departed woman. I have tried to get evidential drawings from two so called psychic artists in the 1970's but without success.
I went to Coral Polge at the spiritualist association in London but did not get a drawing of anyone I knew. I went back to her three times, with the result I have three drawings of people I do not recognize. She is now dead herself but there is information about her on the internet and examples of drawings she did along side photographs of people which were subsequently supplied by relatives of the dead person. They had better luck than me.
I also went to a psychic artist called Ivor James. He drew a Japanese face which he claimed was my spirit guide, and he drew some supposed Japanese writing on it.
I took the drawing to the Japanese embassy and asked them to translate it and they said it was not Japanese, it looked like someone had pretended to write Japanese.

So my efforts to get evidence from two psychic artists failed, and they might both have been fakes.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 16th November 2019, 11:12 AM   #183
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Old 16th November 2019, 11:28 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's pretty much the "standard" in urban fantasy fiction (like Scorpion's fictional spirituality).
Maybe that's why it has an intuitive feel to it.

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It would be quite funny to think that that distinction grew out of English adopting two words rather than the one other languages use. Do most other languages only have a singular word for "ghosts/spirits"?
Yes, in the languages I feel competent enough to talk about. However, in Latin we also have anima, which more closely translates to "soul." Etymologically, spiritus relates to breath, which is the essence of physical life in the organism. But it has poetic, figurative application in languages that have a relevant cognate. So we talk about "the spirit of the holidays" when we want to describe some ineffable emotional nugget of the relevant concept. Or "the spirit of the law" in special opposition to the letter of the law. Vestiges of Plato, I'm sure you'd agree.

Similarly, anima etymologizes to the body of observation we make to distinguish life from non-life or death. You get an accurate picture of the original meaning from English cognate phrases such as "inanimate object," or "He had a very animated objection." The philosophical specialty we call animism is a bit ironic in that it postulates that everything has a soul. But yes, there are other words in other languages with similarly overlapping meanings.
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Old 16th November 2019, 11:44 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
With regard to the opening post about a psychic drawing of a departed woman. I have tried to get evidential drawings...

So my efforts to get evidence from two psychic artists failed, and they might both have been fakes.
You have a separate thread in which to recount your own anecdotes. This thread is about Cris' anecdote.

Insofar as your story relates to his, what do you think the purpose is of "psychic artists" is? Why express mediumship in such an inexact way? Unless a person is a very good artist, no drawing looks exactly like the model. Most such drawings lack enough detail to say with certainly that it represents one person to the exclusion of all others. We can point to lots of phenomena that affect facial recognition and recognizable sketching. Consider such things as police sketches, caricature. Also consider the occasionally embarrassing maxim, "All people of this certain ethnicity look alike to me." Among the many factors that contribute to our mammalian pattern-seeking perceptual system, those that affect facial recognition are the most fascinating.
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Old 16th November 2019, 12:08 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
You have a separate thread in which to recount your own anecdotes. This thread is about Cris' anecdote.
Good luck talking to Cris.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 16th November 2019, 12:19 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Good luck talking to Cris.
We can happily continue to debate Cris' anecdote in his absence without having to deal with you interpolating your own anecdotes into it, thereby transforming this into yet another thread where everyone has to pay attention to you. Case in point: I raised the issue about "psychic drawing" in general, asking questions that pertain to Cris' anecdote and at the same time touched upon the applicable parts of your post. There's meat for discussion there, whether Cris participates or not. You chose instead to ignore the on-topic portion of my post and instead latched onto the part that objected to you trying to hijack the thread to tell your stories.

Try to grasp that not everything is about you.
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Old 16th November 2019, 12:25 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
We can happily continue to debate Cris' anecdote in his absence without having to deal with you interpolating your own anecdotes into it, thereby transforming this into yet another thread where everyone has to pay attention to you. Case in point: I raised the issue about "psychic drawing" in general, asking questions that pertain to Cris' anecdote and at the same time touched upon the applicable parts of your post. There's meat for discussion there, whether Cris participates or not. You chose instead to ignore the on-topic portion of my post and instead latched onto the part that objected to you trying to hijack the thread to tell your stories.

Try to grasp that not everything is about you.
It says penultimate amazing under your name. Not Moderator.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 16th November 2019, 12:45 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It says penultimate amazing under your name. Not Moderator.
And under yours it says Master Poster, not Center of the Universe. Your off-topic posts have repeatedly been moved to the thread specially made for you to run rampant in. You admit you have been warned by the moderators for making off-topic posts. Not a great position from which to argue that you can do whatever you want in any thread you choose to post in.

You posted about your own experiences with so-called "psychic drawing." That's certainly pertinent to evaluating Cris' anecdote. But we're not talking about your experiences. We're talking about the general nature of psychic drawing and how that might fit into an overall pattern of fake mediumship. I raised a number of points that culminated in soliciting your views on the subject. Instead, as usual, you want to whine about how badly you're supposedly being treated. Do you have anything to say on the topic of this thread?
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Old 16th November 2019, 12:48 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post

So my efforts to get evidence from two psychic artists failed, and they might both have been fakes.
Ah. They may have been fakes?!!! Ya think?
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Old 16th November 2019, 12:50 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
And under yours it says Master Poster, not Center of the Universe. Your off-topic posts have repeatedly been moved to the thread specially made for you to run rampant in. You admit you have been warned by the moderators for making off-topic posts. Not a great position from which to argue that you can do whatever you want in any thread you choose to post in.

You posted about your own experiences with so-called "psychic drawing." That's certainly pertinent to evaluating Cris' anecdote. But we're not talking about your experiences. We're talking about the general nature of psychic drawing and how that might fit into an overall pattern of fake mediumship. I raised a number of points that culminated in soliciting your views on the subject. Instead, as usual, you want to whine about how badly you're supposedly being treated. Do you have anything to say on the topic of this thread?
Now you are turning this thread into a personal squabble. But I think my post about my experiences of psychic artists is entirely on topic. Since my view of psychic artists I have been to is that they are fakes, I would have thought you would approve.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 16th November 2019, 12:55 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
But I think my post about my experiences of psychic artists is entirely on topic.
It was, until I tried to generalize between your stories and Cris's and discuss the topic irrespective of whose stories we used. That's when you stopped engaging.

Quote:
Since my view of psychic artists I have been to is that they are fakes, I would have thought you would approve.
No. My approval, if it matters to you, is not based on getting the "right" answer, but upon the rigor of the process used to arrive at whatever answer was proffered. That's why I asked about "psychic drawing" in general.

What led you to conclude that the mediums in your cases were fake? Was it their unwillingness to provide evidence that would help you assess their skills for yourself? Why do you think mediums, real or fake, resort to such indirect mechanisms as drawing?
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Old 16th November 2019, 01:03 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
It was, until I tried to generalize between your stories and Cris's and discuss the topic irrespective of whose stories we used. That's when you stopped engaging.



No. My approval, if it matters to you, is not based on getting the "right" answer, but upon the rigor of the process used to arrive at whatever answer was proffered. That's why I asked about "psychic drawing" in general.

What led you to conclude that the mediums in your cases were fake? Was it their unwillingness to provide evidence that would help you assess their skills for yourself? Why do you think mediums, real or fake, resort to such indirect mechanisms as drawing?
I think I explained in my post why I concluded the so called artists were fakes. One drew three pictures I did not recognise, and the other drew fake Japanese lettering. I do not know why some mediums claim to do psychic drawings.
Maybe they went to art school and decided to use their skills. Coral Polge's drawings of people I did not recognise were never the less, quite competent pastel drawings.
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Old 16th November 2019, 01:13 PM   #194
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I do not know why some mediums claim to do psychic drawings.
Put yourself in the position of a fake medium. What do you think drawing pictures would gain you, in terms of being able to fool the rube?

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Coral Polge's drawings of people I did not recognise were never the less, quite competent pastel drawings.
Oh, sure. I can draw a competent drawing of a random human figure in several media. That doesn't mean I can draw a recognizable portrait of an actual person. The general principles of figure-drawing can be had from any number of books. But the talent of drawing a recognizable portrait takes a lot more time, effort, and practice. How does that dichotomy factor into the various hypotheses of why mediums choose to draw?
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Old 16th November 2019, 01:24 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Put yourself in the position of a fake medium. What do you think drawing pictures would gain you, in terms of being able to fool the rube?



Oh, sure. I can draw a competent drawing of a random human figure in several media. That doesn't mean I can draw a recognizable portrait of an actual person. The general principles of figure-drawing can be had from any number of books. But the talent of drawing a recognizable portrait takes a lot more time, effort, and practice. How does that dichotomy factor into the various hypotheses of why mediums choose to draw?
Coral Polge charged a fee for her drawings, so it could just be she faked it for money.

Actually I went to art college and among other things was taught portrait painting by a member of the royal academy. So I know if a picture is competent.
The three drawings I have from Coral Polge are distinct faces with character, and if you had known those people you would recognise them. I know other people have said she gave them evidential drawings of their relatives, and there is a lot about that on the internet. I do not know why someone chooses to claim to be a psychic artist other that the cash.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 16th November 2019, 02:07 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
The languages that derive from Latin seem to use their variant of spiritus when they need to talk about disembodied life, especially in the religious context. In those same contexts, German uses Geist universally, both as a secularish term for the agent of haunting, and in the trinitarian sense -- heiliger Geist.

Since English seems to have been composed by luring other languages into dark alleys and robbing them of bits of grammar, English uses both Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit relatively interchangeably for identifying the member of the Trinity. I honestly don't see a problem for a non English speaker to ask what nuances of meaning there might be between two words that we often interchange. And I have no objection to a taxonomy we might choose to impose, if we propose to have a discussion where any difference has meaning (even a hypothetical meaning).
There has been a lot of back-engineering as "Paranormal Researchers" look to old folklore for invisible beasties to match a set of - ALLEGED - phenomena which fall outside of the already arbitrary boundaries of what a ghosts is supposed to be able to do...even though none of it is real and what they are really responding to is someone's psychosis.

As I said, you guys don't need to know or care about the definitions as they are all Woo.

But those who believe and actively advance said Woo should know this stuff and most don't. The best thing about my ghost hunting background is I can spot the hacks just as fast based on their inconsistencies of their amazing claims of spiritualism. This thread was started by a guy who has claimed that spirits can attack person and make them sick, and that's just silly and it is inconsistent within the narrow band of Woo we're talking about here.

And as far as the original post goes it's all nonsense. Old school snake-oil, nothing more.
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Old 16th November 2019, 02:09 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Coral Polge charged a fee for her drawings, so it could just be she faked it for money.
...
I do not know why someone chooses to claim to be a psychic artist other that the cash.
I think you're missing my point. Yes, there's the question of why someone would want to fake being a medium, and the money might be one reason. I can think of many additional reasons.

What I mean was that if one has chosen to pretend to be a medium -- whether one intends to charge money or not -- why might one decide to express the illusion of mediumship by drawing? Yes, it might be because the person has some training in art. But what is it about the process of drawing that might serve you here?

Quote:
Actually I went to art college and among other things was taught portrait painting by a member of the royal academy. So I know if a picture is competent.
That didn't really have anything to do with the points I was hoping to discuss. Yes, I realize that there are grades of skill, both in the creation of art and in its appreciation. Consider the case where the fake medium/artist is only modestly competent and the rube has no artistic training.

Quote:
The three drawings I have from Coral Polge....
See, you're just trying to drag the conversation back to you and your personal anecdotes. I'm trying to discuss the subject in general. Are you capable of doing that?
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Old 16th November 2019, 02:32 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
There has been a lot of back-engineering as "Paranormal Researchers" look to old folklore for invisible beasties to match a set of - ALLEGED - phenomena which fall outside of the already arbitrary boundaries of what a ghosts is supposed to be able to do...even though none of it is real and what they are really responding to is someone's psychosis.
Or twitchy needles, for the ghost-hunters who want to pretend to be scientific. Yes, I agree a lot of the lore these days tries to reach back to ancient times and map old superstitions into what's postured as a careful empirical exercise. And more often, ghosts are simply speculatively assigned properties based on what the hunter says he observes. The EMF needle twitches, seemingly inexplicably, and the ghost hunter circularly announces that this is because a ghost is making that happen. So out of nothing more than weak fluctuations in a natural phenomenon, we have some authoritative-sounding claim of what ghosts are capable of.

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As I said, you guys don't need to know or care about the definitions as they are all Woo.
Aw, you're no fun! Seriously though, that's why I qualified my praise by saying it was "in-universe." Within the arbitrary rules made up by some fandom, we can certainly have lots of discussion of what's possible or impossible, what's reasonable or suitably congruent. Yes, that's all rendered moot when someone comes along and says, "You guys realize it's just a TV show, right?" I've heard well-qualified engineers and physicists have extremely erudite debates over whether NCC-1701D could best an Imperial star destroyer. I have no desire to eradicate that from our world.

Quote:
And as far as the original post goes it's all nonsense. Old school snake-oil, nothing more.
Given the originator's past behavior, there's a good chance the original post was entirely made up. But that doesn't preclude thinking critically about the overall phenomenon of psychic art.
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Old 16th November 2019, 03:10 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
The spirits have spoken to me.
MUCH BETTER!!!!
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Old 16th November 2019, 06:23 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Does it eat and drink and poop and pee?
...and you have identified the fundamental problem. Any person attempting to set down on paper the detailed definition of a spirit simply displays that there are fundamental conflicts, which indicate spirits come from fiction.

A spirit can pass through walls and bodies (not matter) but move air to speak ( made of matter)

A spirit can see and hear what is going on (receive environmental data) but has no tangible eyes or ears to receive real photons or sound waves.

A spirit wears clothes which were never living things.

A spirit experiences time and remembers things, but never need to get a haircut every month or so.
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