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Tags mediums , psychics

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Old 16th November 2019, 06:24 PM   #201
Axxman300
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Or twitchy needles, for the ghost-hunters who want to pretend to be scientific. Yes, I agree a lot of the lore these days tries to reach back to ancient times and map old superstitions into what's postured as a careful empirical exercise. And more often, ghosts are simply speculatively assigned properties based on what the hunter says he observes. The EMF needle twitches, seemingly inexplicably, and the ghost hunter circularly announces that this is because a ghost is making that happen. So out of nothing more than weak fluctuations in a natural phenomenon, we have some authoritative-sounding claim of what ghosts are capable of.
The Tri-Field Meters were part of a package of sensors that University-based Parapsychologists (like the crew from UCLA) would bring to an investigation back in the 70's and 80's along with Geiger Counters, parabolic mikes, and some other things which escape my memory right now. The difference was that there was some training in how to use those pieces of equipment. I believe one measured Ion activity. I think the reason they brought all of these gadgets along was they had no idea which one might successfully record a "Presence". The EMF meter has stuck around because of that cool needle combined with the fact that most people don't know how to use them. They are useful to help find bad wiring but not so much for ghosts.

The problem with any gadget being used for ghost hunting is that there is no way to independently test them to see if they're appropriate for the task. First you need a ghost (a huge problem based on reality), then you need a ghost willing to help with your test (bigger problem since they don't exist).

My advice for would be ghost hunters is to save your money. A decent compass is all you need and I mostly suggest that because I think people should keep a compass in their glove compartment for emergencies. If there's a powerful EMF it will mess with your $10 compass just the the same as your $180 Tri-Field Meter. There is no reliable correlation between EMF spikes and "paranormal activity" so why bother?

Where those meters do come in handy is testing crystals for "energy". I think Skeptic Magazine has put those sensors to good use to debunk psychic gemstone healers.



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Aw, you're no fun! Seriously though, that's why I qualified my praise by saying it was "in-universe." Within the arbitrary rules made up by some fandom, we can certainly have lots of discussion of what's possible or impossible, what's reasonable or suitably congruent. Yes, that's all rendered moot when someone comes along and says, "You guys realize it's just a TV show, right?" I've heard well-qualified engineers and physicists have extremely erudite debates over whether NCC-1701D could best an Imperial star destroyer. I have no desire to eradicate that from our world.
I love those kinds of debates because they're good fun and force you to think outside the box.

Why I love this forum and why I find it beneficial is it has forced me to think INSIDE the box. These debunking threads are a fantastic resource for me in helping cross off the stuff on my "Unknown" list and refile as "Explained". At some point in almost every thread someone who knows what they're talking about will chime in with useful but esoteric scientific information.
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Old 16th November 2019, 11:22 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
The Tri-Field Meters were part of a package of sensors that University-based Parapsychologists (like the crew from UCLA) would bring to an investigation back in the 70's and 80's along with Geiger Counters, parabolic mikes, and some other things which escape my memory right now. The difference was that there was some training in how to use those pieces of equipment. I believe one measured Ion activity. I think the reason they brought all of these gadgets along was they had no idea which one might successfully record a "Presence". The EMF meter has stuck around because of that cool needle combined with the fact that most people don't know how to use them. They are useful to help find bad wiring but not so much for ghosts.
This kind of investigation has always seemed to me to be a textbook example of what Richard Feynman called cargo cult science. It copies the sort of thing real scientists do without the slightest understanding of why they do it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_science
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Old 17th November 2019, 12:53 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
...and you have identified the fundamental problem. Any person attempting to set down on paper the detailed definition of a spirit simply displays that there are fundamental conflicts, which indicate spirits come from fiction.
Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
A spirit can pass through walls and bodies (not matter) but move air to speak ( made of matter)
The only time I think spirits have spoken to me it was soundlessly in my head, Their words just popped into my head by telepathy. I do not know if mediums receive their messages in this way.

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
A spirit can see and hear what is going on (receive environmental data) but has no tangible eyes or ears to receive real photons or sound waves.
The spirit world cannot see us clearly, I heard this at a trance lecture by Ursula Roberts. In any case the spirit body has eyes and ears

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post

A spirit wears clothes which were never living things.
The spirit world has been said to be as real as Charing cross to its inhabitants.
They have buildings and trees and the whole thing so why not clothes?

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
A spirit experiences time and remembers things, but never need to get a haircut every month or so.
I do not know if spirits need a hair cut, I never asked.
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Old 17th November 2019, 10:11 AM   #204
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Here is a link about Coral Polge, the most famous British psychic artist. There is a great deal about her on the Internet. It seems many people had more success with her than I did.


http://psychictruth.info/Medium_Coral_Polge.htm
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Old 17th November 2019, 11:37 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I think the reason they brought all of these gadgets along was they had no idea which one might successfully record a "Presence".
And from the rube's point of view the hunters are simply very well equipped. It conveys the notion that they're serious researchers. Besides, they're really just modern-day mediums. Consequently their best chance of success, like "spiritual" mediums, is to thrown a whole lot of mud against the wall and see if any sticks. Some inevitably will, so you can count that as the one important hit among so many misses.

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They [EMF meters] are useful to help find bad wiring but not so much for ghosts.
...
There is no reliable correlation between EMF spikes and "paranormal activity" so why bother?
For anyone who's still puzzled, the various flavors of electro-/magneticish fields fluctuate constantly in the typical home, in ways that relate to how the house is built. The most profound and obvious source of this fluctuation is varying loads on the house wiring -- or even that of the house next door. So your fridge compressor kicks on three rooms away, the needle waggles a bit, and the ghost-hunter triumphantly declares that he's found a "presence."

There's no reason to suppose that a ghost can affect electromagnetic fields. More importantly, no one has a full baseline catalog of all the normal EMF behavior in my house. Not even me, and I'm the kind of guy who would do that kind of thing just for fun. Yes, there are electrical properties associated with living organisms. But the relevant scientists tell me that the human nervous system operates in the area of a couple hundred microvolts at best. That's many orders of magnitude below what you will get from ordinary electrical appliances operating in your house. You're far more likely to get an errant reading from a microwave oven that was dropped during a move.

This is important for the same reason faking mediumship via drawing is important. It provides a toehold for a requirement for someone to interpret the results. The viewer of a drawing has to apply judgment to decide whether it's a suitable likeness. It might just be a very skillful drawing, and the rube translates appreciation for the skill into appreciation for how it allegedly came to be. Similarly the holder of a "scientific" gadget has to tell the rube what it means. It might just be Mrs. Gilch downstairs revving up her electric teakettle. But since the rube won't think of that as the cause, the ghost-hunter can "interpret" the reading as evidence of a ghost.

Quote:
The problem with any gadget being used for ghost hunting is that there is no way to independently test them to see if they're appropriate for the task. First you need a ghost (a huge problem based on reality), then you need a ghost willing to help with your test (bigger problem since they don't exist).
That's really the nugget. And this also:

Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
This kind of investigation has always seemed to me to be a textbook example of what Richard Feynman called cargo cult science. It copies the sort of thing real scientists do without the slightest understanding of why they do it.
By the same token, I think the ghost-hunters know exactly what they're doing. They're mediums. But we have become a society that, in a certain sense, defaults to scientific knowledge. Your average dentist's office is a temple to science. We profess that scientifically-founded methods can inerrantly prove criminal guilt and cure its causes. (Narrator: It can't.) Hence the new wisdom suggests that scientific methods can detect ghosts.

If the medium shows up in flowing robes, dangling earrings, and a scepter made from a shrunken human head, the rube is probably going to laugh. That's so passÚ. But if the medium shows up wearing a lab coat and toting a bunch of sciency-looking equipment, the rube is probably going to think it's real science. Even if the medium has no clue how any of it works. The goal in each case is to tacitly dispel the rube's predictable objections.

Back to the cargo-cult argument. The pseudo-scientific mediums are substitution pure speculation for the deduction step of the traditional hypothetico-deductive method. They say, "If there's a presence here, it will make itself manifest by _______________." The blank gets filled in with whatever behavior can be eked from whatever equipment the medium has brought with him. It might be as simple as an ordinary camera, in which case ghosts are simply assumed to display whatever gets captured by an inexpertly operated camera. The process never starts with what is known or can be reliably deduced about what ghosts are and how they operate. In scientific terms, the ghost hypothesis is completely unfalsifiable.

In order to establish a reliable empirical basis for detecting ghosts, we need to have an unmistakable ghost make itself available so that we can determine what physical parameters, if any, can be measured to stand as proxies for its presence. Only then can we say that this measurement reveals a supernatural presence. We don't even have to conclude that ghosts don't exist, and therefore that this necessary step is impossible. We simply have to point out that no ghost-hunter has done this. Whether ghosts exist or not, no ghost-hunter has undertaken any sort of validation process to ensure that what he's measuring has any hope of relating to ghosts.

The connection to cargo cults is even sillier. In the classic cargo cult formulation, primitive societies built vestiges of airstrips to invoke the "gods" of cargo planes. It doesn't work, of course, for the obvious reason. But if we carry the analogy forward to ghost-hunting, it would be as if the cult built the faux airstrip and then went back to the tribe claiming the plane landed when no such thing actually happened.

Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Why I love this forum and why I find it beneficial is it has forced me to think INSIDE the box.
Which is important when you're trying to argue that something actually exists. The guy who designed NCC-1701E and USS Shenzhou is a good friend of mine. We occasionally collaborate. He's an expert artist and model-maker, but he knows that I'm the expert on real spaceships and the design limitations. My expertise is valuable to him. And since a huge percentage of the relevant fandoms are actual practitioners in the field, getting right what can be gotten right in a fictional setting becomes more important to our studio overlords. Even if you're inventing fantasy technology, it has to work the same way every time, and within a plausible set of fanciful rules, if you want the fans to suspend disbelief.

Ghosts and spirits just don't do that. As we've seen, whenever we ask the believers in such things to come up with a consistent, well-behaved set of rules that supposedly governs this realm, we get a hodge-podge of contradiction and ad hoc speculation. It doesn't even made good fiction. A new rule has to be made up to accommodate each new observation, which defeats the whole meaning of "rule." I believe this is why mediumship requires ad hoc indirections and inherent ambiguities. They don't want to be pinned down, so that they can claim any serendipity in their favor.
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Old 17th November 2019, 11:39 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It seems many people had more success with her than I did.
Okay, you're still focusing on your personal experiences. I'm legitimately interested in your take on the phenomenon at large -- the "psychic drawing" phenomenon. Rather than focus on individual examples, I'm trying to synthesize some understanding of the deeper principles at work.

But since you don't seem very interested in that, here we are. Was she real or fake, in your judgment?
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Old 17th November 2019, 12:19 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Okay, you're still focusing on your personal experiences. I'm legitimately interested in your take on the phenomenon at large -- the "psychic drawing" phenomenon. Rather than focus on individual examples, I'm trying to synthesize some understanding of the deeper principles at work.

But since you don't seem very interested in that, here we are. Was she real or fake, in your judgment?
I can only say I was disappointed with the three drawings she did for me. One of them was supposed to be an Arab spirit guide. I don't believe any Arab would want to guide me so I think it was a fake. But as I say other people seem to have had more success getting drawings of their relatives. She actually said in a lecture she gave, that she could not tune in to some people.
That seemed like an excuse to me. Why do a drawing if she could not tune in to someone. But she still charged me for drawings I did not recognise.

I am not sure if she was entirely a fake or not, but I am sure Ivor James was a fake because he drew a Japanese face he said was my spirit guide. He then pretended to write Japanese writing but it was fake. I also saw him draw a picture for a girl and he said it was a picture of Jesus. So there again he did not draw a recognisable relative.

There may be genuine psychic artists out there, but my experience of them has not been favourable.
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Old 17th November 2019, 12:48 PM   #208
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Here is another link about psychic artists.

https://psychics.co.uk/blog/psychic-artist/
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 17th November 2019, 12:52 PM   #209
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Scorpion. This may be a question that could have its own thread but . . .

A "spirit guide"? What purpose IS said "guide"? A lot of unhappy people out there that don't appear to be guided by anything but their needs and desires.

A high school friend explained to me once about having a spirit guide and guardian angel that would guide and protect her forever.

Forever ended the summer after graduation. She was found, having been raped and buried alive by a man never caught.
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Old 17th November 2019, 01:02 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
One of them was supposed to be an Arab spirit guide. I don't believe any Arab would want to guide me so I think it was a fake.
That's certainly plausible, given how you say you participate in other discussions with Muslims. But if I play devil's advocate, I could say that maybe you were assigned an Arab spirit guide because the Arab needed humbling by being compelled to follow you through life. I don't actually believe that, but this is the sort of what-if game that pervades the lore of spiritualism. As long as speculation gets to count, you can say practically anything and pretend it's a plausible answer.

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She actually said in a lecture she gave, that she could not tune in to some people.
That seemed like an excuse to me.
Of course it is. It's a hallmark of mediumship that it doesn't always work. Coincidentally it's a hallmark of various techniques based on chance or obscure knowledge and skill, that they don't always work either. The whole point of all these techniques is to create the illusion that success via ordinary means is far less likely than it actually is, and than the rube believes. But it's still just a likelihood. it can still fail.

"PIck a number between 1 and 10." By far the most common answers to that question are 3 and 7. The rube is likely to believe that each number comes up with equal probability. That lets a mentalist rig "hits" for 3 and 7 and stand a very good chance of winning. But I always choose 1. Then I listen with amusement as the mentalist backpedals.

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Why do a drawing if she could not tune in to someone.
It depends on the framing. Not the art frame put round the drawing, but the theatrical frame put round the exercise. What she has done in the past is draw a general figure and then ask the audience who it is. This is equivalent to standing in front of a large audience and putting one's fingers dramatically to one's temples and asking, "Hmmmm, who is Ed?" Invariably someone will have a relative with a variation on that name. (Initially I didn't believe I had one, but then I remembered my great-grandfather's name was Edwin.) It's just casting a broad net and allowing the audience to misremember the nature of the hit. This is why they draw. It takes some judgment and interpretation, in most cases, to agree that a drawing is a likeness of an actual person. If you draw generically enough, someone will invariably "recognize" it. This was her undoing on James Randi's show. She drew a picture that was too generic, and too many people came up with different stories for who the "dead relative" was that she drew.

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But she still charged me for drawings I did not recognise.
Hold onto them. Regardless whether they are what they purport to be, they are drawn by a notable artist. She probably still has fans today. Someone somewhere may eventually want them.

As many have said, there's probably a reason she draws chiefly relatives. It's just the graphical equivalent of cold reading. Anyone who claimed to be a psychic artist and wanted to draw a picture of my dead father could literally just draw a picture of me. I look exactly like my dad did when he was my age. All his siblings have constantly remarked on it. Cold-reading drawings are based on the simple (gasp!) principle that relatives look like each other. If you have enough artistic talent, you just draw people in the room and given them different hair and clothing and all of a sudden it's dead Aunt Gertie. One of Coral's other "difficulties" is representing relatives at different ages of their life than the live rubes remember. She explained this away by saying this is how they wanted to appear. Or, skeptically speaking, she was just using general features of people in the audience and creating the difference by artistically fudging the apparent age.

Then as soon as you get good enough at that sort of cold reading, you can start getting commissions for reading known individuals. Then you do all the hot-reading techniques. Strange that so many of Coral's allegedly off-the-cuff portraits look like they've been posed by photographers. It leads us to consider the hypothesis that she obtained photos of the relatives ahead of time and then reproduced them from memory.

But you still have to deal with the misses. As you say, there's always the excuse that you just can't tune in that day. The purported come-and-go nature of psychic talent excuses anyone from being able to demonstrate it on command or under controlled circumstances. That sort of thing is a huge, waving red flag to skeptics. I assume you didn't scan the "miss" drawings you got from her and post them on the internet. I can do a simple image search using her name and get a number of reasonably convincing hits. But will I see any of the misses on the web? That's part of how all mediums work. Where they have control over the way their talents are portrayed, they simply edit away the majority of guesses that were clear misses. And people who were astounded at the reading are more motivated to post the results publicly.

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There may be genuine psychic artists out there, but my experience of them has not been favourable.
And the same sort of critical analysis you've done here is what we do to all kinds of mediumship.
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Old 17th November 2019, 01:12 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I can only say I was disappointed with the three drawings she did for me. One of them was supposed to be an Arab spirit guide. I don't believe any Arab would want to guide me so I think it was a fake. But as I say other people seem to have had more success getting drawings of their relatives. She actually said in a lecture she gave, that she could not tune in to some people.
That seemed like an excuse to me. Why do a drawing if she could not tune in to someone. But she still charged me for drawings I did not recognise.

I am not sure if she was entirely a fake or not, but I am sure Ivor James was a fake because he drew a Japanese face he said was my spirit guide. He then pretended to write Japanese writing but it was fake. I also saw him draw a picture for a girl and he said it was a picture of Jesus. So there again he did not draw a recognisable relative.

There may be genuine psychic artists out there, but my experience of them has not been favourable.

We are making progress it would seem.

You now seem to be inclined to conclude that the bona fides of psychic artists is in question, we now have to encourage a more penetrating look at psychics in general. You have acknowledged that some of these are dodgy also in other posts.
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Old 17th November 2019, 01:18 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Scorpion. This may be a question that could have its own thread but . . .

A "spirit guide"? What purpose IS said "guide"? A lot of unhappy people out there that don't appear to be guided by anything but their needs and desires.

A high school friend explained to me once about having a spirit guide and guardian angel that would guide and protect her forever.

Forever ended the summer after graduation. She was found, having been raped and buried alive by a man never caught.
That's a tragic tale, and I don't have an answer for it.
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Old 17th November 2019, 01:24 PM   #213
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JayUtah, thanks for all that. As it happens since looking up Coral Polge I have discovered her drawings are being sold on places like eBay, and fetching good money. Since she has died the value has gone up, so I could sell them at a considerable profit.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 17th November 2019, 01:41 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
]Forever ended the summer after graduation. She was found, having been raped and buried alive by a man never caught.
That's just plain terrible. What a horrible thing to have happen.

I think believers in an afterlife place great faith in their departing relatives' wishes -- often expressed in no uncertain terms -- that they wish they could remain behind to take care of the people they've been responsible for their entire lives. And we who are left behind with fewer and fewer of our childhood caretakers and mentors can draw comfort in a belief that in some way they are still mentoring us.
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Old 17th November 2019, 01:43 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
JayUtah, thanks for all that. As it happens since looking up Coral Polge I have discovered her drawings are being sold on places like eBay, and fetching good money. Since she has died the value has gone up, so I could sell them at a considerable profit.
I think you should do that. If you feel that the drawings weren't worth the price you paid for them, then you should pursue legitimate means to recoup your loss. And if she has fans that would appreciate an original drawing by her far more than you would, this is a win-win scenario.
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Old 17th November 2019, 05:39 PM   #216
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For clarity, I understand the usage of the term 'Fake Medium'.

I must point out, however, It's a redundant term.


By the way, I'm getting from beyond the letters A&R. Has someone lost someone with those initials? I'm also sensing something to do with water
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Old 17th November 2019, 06:43 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The only time I think spirits have spoken to me it was soundlessly in my head
That means no spirit was speaking to you, doesn't it?

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The spirit world cannot see us clearly
If the spirit is inside your head, sending messages direct to your brain cells, it can't see anything at all can it? It's very dark in there.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
In any case the spirit body has eyes and ears
Why? It can't hear or see things inside your head.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I do not know if spirits need a hair cut, I never asked.
They don't because they don't exist. Superman is stronger than hardened steel and thus can't shave in the morning. But that's OK because fictional stories like spirits and superman, don't have to make any sense in detail.
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Old 17th November 2019, 08:08 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
By the same token, I think the ghost-hunters know exactly what they're doing. They're mediums. But we have become a society that, in a certain sense, defaults to scientific knowledge. Your average dentist's office is a temple to science. We profess that scientifically-founded methods can inerrantly prove criminal guilt and cure its causes. (Narrator: It can't.) Hence the new wisdom suggests that scientific methods can detect ghosts.
It's the same school of thought used by people who sell herbal supplements, most assume somebody is doing legitimate research to confirm their vitamins and muscle-building shakes do what they say that they do and are safe to use.

The EMF detectors have become ubiquitous since 2005 and the advent of TV ghost hunting shows and today people expect them when a team shows up to investigate their property. It's one of the many reasons I don't do it any more, having to explain that they don't work the way ghost hunters advertise them.

The latest gadget, excuse me, BS scientific instrument being used by ghost hunting teams, especially the TV gang, is the Xbox Kinect sensor and it is yet one more device being misused for a job it is not designed to do.

Great article here:
https://skepticalinquirer.org/exclus...investigation/


Quote:
In order to establish a reliable empirical basis for detecting ghosts, we need to have an unmistakable ghost make itself available so that we can determine what physical parameters, if any, can be measured to stand as proxies for its presence. Only then can we say that this measurement reveals a supernatural presence. We don't even have to conclude that ghosts don't exist, and therefore that this necessary step is impossible. We simply have to point out that no ghost-hunter has done this. Whether ghosts exist or not, no ghost-hunter has undertaken any sort of validation process to ensure that what he's measuring has any hope of relating to ghosts.
Bingo.

This is exactly why I threw all of the ghost hunter assumptions out going all the way back and started over by asking a different, and in my view a more valid question: Why do people see ghosts? Now I have a solid foundation to work from, unlike trying to prove ghosts exist, hoping to understand the mechanism in the human mind which produces the event has proven much more successful. Working from a position where ghosts do not exist clears the field to focus things that can be measured and recorded and photographed and not one of them is a phantom being.

Today I would us a CO detector, look for black mold, check ventilation and air-flow. I'm considering going back to college to study psychology to better understand how hysteria works.

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Which is important when you're trying to argue that something actually exists. The guy who designed NCC-1701E and USS Shenzhou is a good friend of mine. We occasionally collaborate. He's an expert artist and model-maker, but he knows that I'm the expert on real spaceships and the design limitations. My expertise is valuable to him. And since a huge percentage of the relevant fandoms are actual practitioners in the field, getting right what can be gotten right in a fictional setting becomes more important to our studio overlords. Even if you're inventing fantasy technology, it has to work the same way every time, and within a plausible set of fanciful rules, if you want the fans to suspend disbelief.
My quest for answers lead me back to school at the local JC where I loaded up on science courses which is why I don't believe in them in the way I once did. I loved being in a lab and going to places like MBARI (Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute) to meet scientists who are at the forefront of everything from deep sea exploration to climate change to biochemistry. There's none of the flightiness you find with ghost hunters and "paranormal investigators". The real scientists are humble and methodical and careful about sticking with the known facts while continuing their research to develop more facts to support their thesis.

This is why I'd never start a thread about ghosts on this forum, I have no proof nor does any other ghost hunter. I might start a thread sometime next month looking at how urban legends form to make a location haunted using a series of Youtube videos, but I want to write it correctly as to not waste anyone's time.

Also, the USS Enterprise D is the best version of that ship.


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Ghosts and spirits just don't do that. As we've seen, whenever we ask the believers in such things to come up with a consistent, well-behaved set of rules that supposedly governs this realm, we get a hodge-podge of contradiction and ad hoc speculation. It doesn't even made good fiction. A new rule has to be made up to accommodate each new observation, which defeats the whole meaning of "rule.
It was the long list of inconsistencies which pushed me away from being a believer. Tides are consistent with the moon, air pressure is consistent with altitude (as is Oxygen content), and water pressure is consistent with depth (the CCD is consistent). There is not one single aspect of ghosts, hauntings, or spirits that is consistent. We've had around 130 years to come up with at least one provable element or factor and to date there is nothing. I can't think of any legitimate branch of science that has a worse record than Parapsychology. Most ghost hunters don't know that the few universities who had parapsychology departments have shuttered them long ago, and rightly so.
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Old 17th November 2019, 08:13 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
For clarity, I understand the usage of the term 'Fake Medium'.

I must point out, however, It's a redundant term.


By the way, I'm getting from beyond the letters A&R. Has someone lost someone with those initials? I'm also sensing something to do with water
A&R Plumbing is probably in your phone book right now...I'll wait while you google what a phone book is...
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Old 17th November 2019, 08:22 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Scorpion. This may be a question that could have its own thread but . . .

A "spirit guide"? What purpose IS said "guide"? A lot of unhappy people out there that don't appear to be guided by anything but their needs and desires.

A high school friend explained to me once about having a spirit guide and guardian angel that would guide and protect her forever.

Forever ended the summer after graduation. She was found, having been raped and buried alive by a man never caught.
A spirit guide is a medium's intermediary to the spirit world. The claim is that spirits won't or can't talk directly to the living (because reasons) and thus the spirit guide steps in to act as translator.

It's just razzle-dazzle.

Usually the spirit guide is a Native American or a little girl. This allows the con artist...I mean Medium, to fake a bad accent adding to the show and hoping their client/sucker doesn't catch on.

This is yet another inconsistency. Why does Medium Barbie need a spirit guide named Red Arrow when Medium John talks directly to the dead?
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Old 17th November 2019, 11:27 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
A&R Plumbing is probably in your phone book right now...I'll wait while you google what a phone book is...
(gasps) 100% success rate!!!

https://www.aandrplumbinginc.com/

Where do I send money???
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Old 17th November 2019, 11:49 PM   #222
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Guys & Gals,

Your having spent this much time and energy on this makes me wonder whether or not you are certain it is bunk.
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Old 18th November 2019, 01:28 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
(gasps) 100% success rate!!!

https://www.aandrplumbinginc.com/

Where do I send money???
I can't take your money. The honest truth is that there is probably an A&R Plumbing in every phone book just like there's probably an A&R Vacuum Cleaner Repair or A&R Electronics Repair/Electricians.

It's an oldschool Yellow Pages trick where by naming your business or service with a word staring with the letter "A" or the initial "A" it gets you in the front of the book. My guess is the Z Plumbing guys are probably better.
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Old 18th November 2019, 07:52 AM   #224
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Those Native guides

I'd dearly love to hear a medium talking Noble Savage. I grew up around Plains Indians, Crows and Cheyennes mostly, and I doubt that their rather German-sounding accents would be accepted in polite spiritualist circles.
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Old 18th November 2019, 08:10 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
I'd dearly love to hear a medium talking Noble Savage. I grew up around Plains Indians, Crows and Cheyennes mostly...
Out here, the Utes and some other nations are still the majority inhabitants of some counties. Most places I go in Shiprock, I'm the only non-Navajo in the place. When you tell these people that some people's idea of their afterlife is where they have to follow some white guy around, they just roll their eyes.
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Old 18th November 2019, 08:28 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
I'd dearly love to hear a medium talking Noble Savage. I grew up around Plains Indians, Crows and Cheyennes mostly, and I doubt that their rather German-sounding accents would be accepted in polite spiritualist circles.
One of Scorpion's preferred sources was Silver Birch, a "red Indian" but later on apparently revealed that was only a "persona" the spirit adopted. I suspect that what happened is that someone knowing something about native americans asked some questions Silver Birch couldn't answer or pointed out there were no "red indians" but rather different, distinct nations and tribes.
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Old 18th November 2019, 08:58 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
A spirit guide is a medium's intermediary to the spirit world. The claim is that spirits won't or can't talk directly to the living (because reasons) and thus the spirit guide steps in to act as translator.

It's just razzle-dazzle.

Usually the spirit guide is a Native American or a little girl. This allows the con artist...I mean Medium, to fake a bad accent adding to the show and hoping their client/sucker doesn't catch on.

This is yet another inconsistency. Why does Medium Barbie need a spirit guide named Red Arrow when Medium John talks directly to the dead?
"Native American or a little girl"? Really. I didn't realize how uninformed I am on these matters. My spirit guide seems to be mute and has little interest in me.
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Old 18th November 2019, 09:31 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Out here, the Utes and some other nations are still the majority inhabitants of some counties. Most places I go in Shiprock, I'm the only non-Navajo in the place. When you tell these people that some people's idea of their afterlife is where they have to follow some white guy around, they just roll their eyes.
I think a lot of the people whose idea of an afterlife is following some white guy around aren't too pleased when told that the white guy, well, wasn't.
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Old 18th November 2019, 11:04 AM   #229
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AFAIK the afterlife 'guy you'll follow around' story here alluded to didnt assign race or pigmentation, or at least my interpretation shed the human qualities typically associated with it.
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Old 18th November 2019, 11:18 AM   #230
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When not specified it is assumed European missionary, European icons.

The broader thinking is Jesus was middle Eastern, thus didn't appear as statues in Spanish churches depict him.

(The debate on his actual existence is another thread.)
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Old 18th November 2019, 12:56 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
"Native American or a little girl"? Really. I didn't realize how uninformed I am on these matters. My spirit guide seems to be mute and has little interest in me.
It's a big part of the con.

The Medium's butt is covered because they're not the one giving incorrect answers it's their spirit guide. And if the Medium is on a role successfully answering leading questions their reputation grows meaning they can command more money for a reading since their spirit guide is better than the con man across the street.
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Old 18th November 2019, 08:38 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Out here, the Utes and some other nations are still the majority inhabitants of some counties. Most places I go in Shiprock, I'm the only non-Navajo in the place. When you tell these people that some people's idea of their afterlife is where they have to follow some white guy around, they just roll their eyes.
Not that Ute or Modoc or Iriquois or Digger or Ona or any other superstitions are less daffy than, say, the Immaculate Conception or predestination. But they aren't widely known, and they've been long since sieved through whiteman transmission -- and misunderstanding -- so that a fraudster can easily use them to gull the credulous.

Many Indians today like to disparage "plastic shamans," without admitting that there's really no other kind.
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Old 19th November 2019, 09:40 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
The latest gadget, excuse me, BS scientific instrument being used by ghost hunting teams, especially the TV gang, is the Xbox Kinect sensor and it is yet one more device being misused for a job it is not designed to do.
Yes, I've seen that. Speaking with my other hat on, it does a much better job of scaring the pants off people in horror movies than wiggly needles.

Quote:
Today I would us a CO detector, look for black mold, check ventilation and air-flow.
As the owner of residential rental property, I'm far more terrified by those things than of ghosts.

Quote:
I loved being in a lab and going to places like MBARI (Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute) to meet scientists...
I was just at the aquarium in August. Always a magical place. But why are there no good restaurants on Cannery Row? The book What It's Like To Be a Dog goes into some detail on frontiers of neurology research in, among other things, sea mammals. Fascinating.

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Also, the USS Enterprise D is the best version of that ship.
It's sort of the Iowa-class-battleship of the Starfleet world.

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There is not one single aspect of ghosts, hauntings, or spirits that is consistent. We've had around 130 years to come up with at least one provable element or factor and to date there is nothing.
And you discovered why. They all start from the point of view that something new needs to explain all the things people report. That may not be exactly a predisposition to believe in ghosts, but it's a predisposition to avoid the notion that paranormal phenomenon are more likely to be explained by extension of what we already know, not a wholesale introduction of something entirely new.

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Most ghost hunters don't know that the few universities who had parapsychology departments have shuttered them long ago, and rightly so.
Most were the brainchild of individual faculty members whose tenure let them follow whatever oddball theories attracted money from rich donors. When those individuals retired, no one wanted to continue down the rat hole. Rightly so.
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Old 19th November 2019, 10:18 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Not that Ute or Modoc or Iriquois or Digger or Ona or any other superstitions are less daffy than, say, the Immaculate Conception or predestination.
Here in Utah they just combine it all into one and say they're the lost tribes of Israel.

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But they aren't widely known, and they've been long since sieved through whiteman transmission -- and misunderstanding -- so that a fraudster can easily use them to gull the credulous.
Appealing to indigenous beliefs plays on Trail of Tears guilt and avoids the longstanding baggage of Western Christianity and the panoply of Eastern dharmic complexity. It comes across as derived naturally from "the Earth" or whatever, not as a bunch of made-up nonsense.

But now, of course, any sort of cultural appropriation is looked upon with skepticism. I guess all those ethnically interesting spirit guides are all out looking for work.
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Old 19th November 2019, 04:08 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I was just at the aquarium in August. Always a magical place. But why are there no good restaurants on Cannery Row?
Rent is steep.

The good restaurants are found on Alvarado Street and on both Wharfs.

MBARI is up in Moss Landing. They have an open house in September and they have free seminars on Wednesdays:

https://www.mbari.org/products/educa...rces/seminars/

Best part about MBARI is that the best seafood place in Monterey County is right next door:

http://philsfishmarket.com/

I live in Marine Science Valhalla.
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Old 20th November 2019, 03:23 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
By the way, I'm getting from beyond the letters A&R. Has someone lost someone with those initials? I'm also sensing something to do with water
Blimey, that's uncanny. My Father died a few days ago, and the letters A and R are in both his first and family names.

Furthermore, not only did he sometimes drink water, he was an officer in the US Navy.

Truly, you have a gift.
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Old 20th November 2019, 12:01 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Rent is steep.

The good restaurants are found on Alvarado Street and on both Wharfs.

MBARI is up in Moss Landing. They have an open house in September and they have free seminars on Wednesdays:

https://www.mbari.org/products/educa...rces/seminars/

Best part about MBARI is that the best seafood place in Monterey County is right next door:

http://philsfishmarket.com/

I live in Marine Science Valhalla.
Second vote for Phil's. So good.

Also, you can rent a kayak nearby and paddle up the Elkhorn Slough, which is really quite nice. They also have guided tours of the slough with biologists to point out all the cool stuff.

I like visiting your neighborhood.
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Old 20th November 2019, 01:04 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
He who smelt it dealt it, so you do.
I'm not sure first-grader logic is the best way to make a point.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 10:08 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
A&R Plumbing is probably in your phone book right now...I'll wait while you google what a phone book is...
I'll wait till you google what sarcasm is. Don't blame me for you falling for the con and getting all tingly over woo.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 10:09 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Blimey, that's uncanny. My Father died a few days ago, and the letters A and R are in both his first and family names.

Furthermore, not only did he sometimes drink water, he was an officer in the US Navy.

Truly, you have a gift.
I really do, only 50$ an hour
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