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Tags Andrew McCabe , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Michael Cohen , Mueller investigation , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 21st April 2019, 05:27 PM   #4201
CapelDodger
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
With Trump we might be witnessing a process not so very different, on a fundamental level, from than that concerning another delusional 'leader' who went down to ignominy in the mid-40s.
Do you mean Mussolini or Patton?



Quote:
Increasingly it's more and more of the world against him, with a diminishing coterie of loyal sycophants. Until lashing out against everything, wanting to burn it all down because no one is worthy of his greatness.
Oh, you mean Hitler. A completely different order of monster from the above - and Trump is a lower order than even them.


Quote:
In detail of character there is much to differentiate.
Fuggedaboudit.


Quote:
But in both cases we have a largely saner world consuming the cancer of a self-important 'messiah' whose Svengali-like charisma hoodwinked a frightful number of his nation's citizenry.
In the case of Hitler we have a society traumatised by defeat in the Great War, a humiliating peace treaty, and the experience of hyper-inflation : in the case of Trump we have a society traumatised by a black President, elected and re-elected. "Largely saner" doesn't really cover it, to my mind.


Quote:
I wonder if deep in whatever self-reflective crevices of his sclerotic brain might exist, Trump realizes that through the history to follow his name will be invoked as an exemplar of so *many* of the lesser qualities of Man. Actually saddening is that he was utterly unwilling to permit the awesomeness of his position inspire him to improvement. Starting from such a low point of the miserable specimen he was, with just a modicum of realization and introspection, and the help from any half-assed administration, he could have risen to at least a level of adequacy. But no. His impulses and proclivities are unchangeable; the world has to adjust to him.

And so he goes, swirling down the drain to ignominy. Thankfully because the institutions he (largely) ineffectually sought to bend to his design stood sufficiently firm.
Be it by nature, nurture, or a particularly toxic combination of the two, Trump was an utterly ruined personality from infancy. Hitler was very damaged, but only ruined by the experience of power.
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Old 21st April 2019, 07:33 PM   #4202
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Here's Trump answering all the important collusion/obstruction questions:

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I AGREE
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Old 21st April 2019, 09:06 PM   #4203
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
With Trump we might be witnessing a process not so very different, on a fundamental level, from than that concerning another delusional 'leader' who went down to ignominy in the mid-40s. Increasingly it's more and more of the world against him, with a diminishing coterie of loyal sycophants. Until lashing out against everything, wanting to burn it all down because no one is worthy of his greatness.

In detail of character there is much to differentiate. But in both cases we have a largely saner world consuming the cancer of a self-important 'messiah' whose Svengali-like charisma hoodwinked a frightful number of his nation's citizenry.
More like Idi Amin
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:16 AM   #4204
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
trump tweets



Can you believe that I had to go through the worst and most corrupt political Witch Hunt in the history of the United States (No Collusion) when it was the “other side” that illegally created the diversionary & criminal event and even spied on my campaign? Disgraceful!
All the rest is clearly of no consequence. All the lying and obstruction of justice and subordinates going to jail pleading guilty. Well that's just Trump's everyday world and easily ignored. We'll just go with Trump's framing of it all instead
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:25 AM   #4205
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Trump won't leave office without Pence pardoning him for everything, especially Obstruction.
Otherwise, he can walk straight into a jail cell and safe everyone some time.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 01:15 AM   #4206
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CNN detail how staking out Mueller is what landed them the footage of Stone being arrested, amongst other stories
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Old 22nd April 2019, 03:03 AM   #4207
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How delicious
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Old 22nd April 2019, 03:40 AM   #4208
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trump won't leave office without Pence pardoning him for everything, especially Obstruction.
Only after Trump pardons Manafort and Flynn and anyone else still in his good graces.

My one hope there is that state civil and criminal charges - and, God willing, convictions - will dog him for the rest of his life. If there’s any justice at all, of course.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 03:43 AM   #4209
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Yep.
But I think it's useful to ask Trump supporters if they think Trump will seek a Pardon for Mueller's Obstruction charges, given that he claims to have been completely exonorated.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 03:53 AM   #4210
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
And yet impeachment will, one way or another, be seen as partisan, and the Senate won't remove him anyway. And even if they did, you'd be stuck with Pence, who on top of being a nutter would actually get things done that you don't want to see done. Better stick with the village idiot, instead.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 04:09 AM   #4211
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
That depends on your perspective. For example, would you say that Sander's statement about the FBI agents will qualify as the biggest lie of the year? If so, then she's only equal to her predecessor under Obama Jay Carney. If you qualify her statement being less than "the lie of the year", then she has not behaved nearly as badly as Jay Carney under Obama.

Chris B.
That wasn't the question you were asked. Phiwum didn't ask you if she made the biggest lie. He asked you if she behaved badly. Yes or no? Why can't you answer such a straight, easy question?

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Both sides play the corruption game as a profession.
And there's another one. Why do so many posters here believe that all bad actions are equivalent?

Well, don't answer that. I know you don't believe that for a second. It's just a trick to deflect the discussion. I'm sure you think everybody does it, too.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I always found the pardoning power weird. It's such a throwback to absolute monarchy to grant one person the power of life, liberty and death. A government clemency committee or some such would be a better option.
Well, we already have that; it's called an appeals court.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 04:10 AM   #4212
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It would be enough to open an Impeachment Investigation to determine the chances of success - and subpoena a ******** of intel in the progress.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 04:14 AM   #4213
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
The problem with the pardon power is the same as many of the problems with US laws that Trump's presidency has brought to light - they were written under the assumption that the government would be working for the good of the country. It seems that this presidency has finally made people realise that that's not necessarily a safe assumption.
It's absolutely amazing, when you think about it. Government workings was always a bit obscure, especially in the US, for me. But Trump has revealed that a LOT of its inner working was founded on something I didn't even have a word for until about a year ago: forebearance. Even most of the most hated politicians used to observe some sort of decorum, and had some respect for the institutions in place. The rules were unwritten. But Trump has no respect for even the written rules, and he's busted open the unwritten ones, at least allowing us to notice how well behaved his predecessors were.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 04:18 AM   #4214
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
It's nice that you and CapelDodger now are at the core of your Russia stance, which is blatant racism.
Russians are not a race.

Nice try into shame-slapping your opponents, though. Speaking of which, why don't you have any?

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
trump tweets

Can you believe that I had to go through the worst and most corrupt political Witch Hunt in the history of the United States (No Collusion) when it was the “other side” that illegally created the diversionary & criminal event and even spied on my campaign?
Aw, I feel for him!

Originally Posted by dejudge View Post
In order to be pardoned one must first admit guilt.
You're not a real judge, are you?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 04:24 AM   #4215
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Originally Posted by dejudge View Post
Nixon was pardoned for crimes he committed or may have committed between 20th July 1969 and 9 August 1974.
He wasn't charged, wasn't convicted, and didn't admit it.

And yet he was pardoned.

Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Trump is certainly whining
Oh, that's what he meant! He meant we'd get tired of whining!
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Old 22nd April 2019, 05:34 AM   #4216
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The significance of Sarah Sanders lying to the media by claiming countless FBI agents had contacted her to praise Trump's firing of FBI Director James Comey, was the motive. Presumably, this comment was supposed to support the administration's effort to portray the removal of Comey as an action to remove an official who had proven incompetent. That it was not related to the Mueller investigation, to either stop it or to retaliate against or intimidate career officials like Comey who supported and cooperated with the investigation. It stands out that the few posters willing to defend Sanders avoid having that discussion.

To his credit, Mitt Romney was willing to give an honest evaluation.
Quote:
“I am sickened at the extent and pervasiveness of dishonesty and misdirection by individuals in the highest office of the land, including the President,” Romney said in a statement. “I am also appalled that, among other things, fellow citizens working in a campaign for president welcomed help from Russia -- including information that had been illegally obtained; that none of them acted to inform American law enforcement; and that the campaign chairman was actively promoting Russian interests in Ukraine." Bloomberg news link
The truth of what Romney said, has been documented -- welcomed help from Russia, knew information was being obtained illegally, none even considered notifying American law enforcement (as required by law) -- but posters defending Trump avoid that discussion as well. People defend Donald Trump and won't discuss the issues that lead so many people to regard him with disgust and contempt. Was the Trump campaign right to have accepted help from the Russian government, from someone like Vladimir Putin? Was it acceptable that the Trump campaign didn't inform American intelligence about the contacts? Other Western countries were picking up on this -- that the Russians were attempting to interfere in the American election and had been in contact with the Trump campaign -- and were forwarding the information to the U.S. The Trump defenders not only won't discuss these documented facts, they try and derail the discussion of them.

The scariest part is, they're being encouraged by none other than Trump himself, who continues to deride the events as a hoax concocted by angry Democrats. That's probably the worst argument of all. Too bad George Orwell didn't live long enough to witness this comedy.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 05:58 AM   #4217
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
CNN reported on comments Trump made when he first "asked" the Russians to find Clinton's missing emails.


That doesn't seem like joking. At other times, a link was posted here previously, he admitted to an interviewer he wasn't joking.
Here is the thing, Trump doesn't really joke. He harasses and abuses sure he uses the I was joking defense like a boyfriend/husband suggesting how funny the idea of a threesome is. It is to get the idea out there with out having to take ownership of it.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 05:59 AM   #4218
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Here's Sarah Sander's father's reaction (in a Tweet!) to the Romney comments:
Quote:
Know what makes me sick, Mitt? Not how disingenuous you were to take @realDonaldTrump $$ and then 4 yrs later jealously trash him & then love him again when you begged to be Sec of State, but makes me sick that you got GOP nomination and could have been @POTUS Twitter link
Of course, he got owned pretty good by some of the responses:

Quote:
Bishop Talbert Swan
‏Know what makes me sick, @GovMikeHuckabee? It makes me sick that you’re a gaslighting, racist, so-called Christian minister who raised liars and degenerates for children and who supports, defends, and excuses an unrepentant, p*ssy grabbing, porn star banging, white supremacist.

Quote:
Sideline_Observer
‏Maybe you should sit this one out Mike. I mean if you want to talk about disingenuous, let's talk about your daughter flat out lying at the podium on behalf of Trump. Unclutch the pearls Mike.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 06:02 AM   #4219
dasmiller
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And even if they did, you'd be stuck with Pence, who on top of being a nutter would actually get things done that you don't want to see done. Better stick with the village idiot, instead.
I am conflicted on this. I certainly would not welcome a Pence presidency, even if only for a year and a half. But I feel that the election of Trump was a catastrophic national mistake and if he turns out to be just another 1-term president with more-than-usual controversy, I'm not sure we'll really learn from it.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 06:32 AM   #4220
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
I am conflicted on this. I certainly would not welcome a Pence presidency, even if only for a year and a half. But I feel that the election of Trump was a catastrophic national mistake and if he turns out to be just another 1-term president with more-than-usual controversy, I'm not sure we'll really learn from it.
It's a conundrum. If it doesn't end in catastrophe, how will we learn the valuable life lesson that it was catastrophic?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 06:40 AM   #4221
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's a conundrum. If it doesn't end in catastrophe, how will we learn the valuable life lesson that it was catastrophic?
Certainly Bill Clinton's impeachment taught the country what a catastrophe his presidency was, right?

... right?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 06:49 AM   #4222
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Yep.
But I think it's useful to ask Trump supporters if they think Trump will seek a Pardon for Mueller's Obstruction charges, given that he claims to have been completely exonorated.
Except there weren't any Mueller obstruction charges, and generally it's not useful to ask a Trump supporter anything.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:13 AM   #4223
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's a conundrum. If it doesn't end in catastrophe, how will we learn the valuable life lesson that it was catastrophic?
I think the catastrophe is already in progress (for one thing, I'm a deficit hawk).

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Certainly Bill Clinton's impeachment taught the country what a catastrophe his presidency was, right?

... right?
Impeachment does not necessarily imply a catastrophic presidency, nor does a lack of impeachment imply that a presidency was a success.

I think there should be more limits on the president's powers, and I think people need to be more wary of blustering iconoclastic truth-challenged demagogues (on both sides). If, as I suggested earlier, Trump is remembered as just another 1-term president like Carter or Bush-the-First, then we haven't done anything to resist the bluster of the next iconoclastic truth-challenged demagogue.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:16 AM   #4224
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
Impeachment does not necessarily imply a catastrophic presidency
Obviously. Which is why impeaching Trump won't teach people what you want them to learn.

Quote:
I think there should be more limits on the president's powers
I've been saying that since before Trump was elected. People didn't seem particularly interested in hearing that message when they thought Hillary would win.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:29 AM   #4225
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
I think there should be more limits on the president's powers, and I think people need to be more wary of blustering iconoclastic truth-challenged demagogues (on both sides). If, as I suggested earlier, Trump is remembered as just another 1-term president like Carter or Bush-the-First, then we haven't done anything to resist the bluster of the next iconoclastic truth-challenged demagogue.
I hope we will have at least wised up to the dark side of social media. Actually, all media, MSM included.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:45 AM   #4226
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Obviously. Which is why impeaching Trump won't teach people what you want them to learn.
It is not about the impeachment so much as it is about getting away from business-as-usual for a bit. If a lot of the key Republicans were to admit that nominating Trump was a mistake (the Democrats are already onboard with that), if the acres of misbehavior of the administration were laid bare rather than being buried in legalese and dribbled out over years, perhaps some lessons would be taken to heart. But if it's just two sides accusing each other of being dishonest and political, then I fear that the country's current divide and truth-optional attitude will become the new normal.

FWIW, I think Trump's presidency is more a symptom than a cause. Until 2016, I'd have thought that the Democrats were more susceptible to that type of fact-lite demagoguery. I'm much more interested in treating the underlying problems than I am with Trump himself.


Quote:
I've been saying that since before Trump was elected. People didn't seem particularly interested in hearing that message when they thought Hillary would win.
Hillary? Really?

Mod InfoThread continues here
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