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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:22 AM   #641
Georgio
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If feminists are actively keeping MRA's from building that sustained public pressure, then wouldn't Silverman be right to blame them?
It is never right to blame feminism for anything
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:23 AM   #642
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I don't know what a "rule 10s" is if it's not an attempt to bypass forum rules to keep insulting me. Shame on you if that's the case.

Erin Pizzey is a contributor to the hate group A Voice For Men as I understand it. She hasn't published enough to be the world's foremost expert on anything.

Earl Silverman is a guy who hanged himself when his men's shelter was closed due to lack of funding. Dunno if he was another misogynist. Seems to have had a rough life.

Justin Trottier is the head of a men's rights group that appear to have behaved a tad shadily if articles are to be beleived. Cpnsidering the fact that MRAs tend to be fairly toxic, I'm not surprised they are the subject of controversy. Bet on how long until they're listed as a hate group?
I'll just leave that there and, in the context of your other posts, let people reading decide for themselves whether you deserve to be insulted or not.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:24 AM   #643
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Ah, fine. I didn't get it as I'm English (I assume that's an American product).
More specifically a chain of shops selling yogurt to eat there or take away and AFAIK American origin but no idea if it has spread to other countries, I do not eat yogurt so I do not otherwise care!!!
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:27 AM   #644
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If feminists are actively keeping MRA's from building that sustained public pressure, then wouldn't Silverman be right to blame them?
That's the crux of the issue. Many have contended that MRA's sabotage their own movement by spreading, or at least tolerating, misogynistic lies and tropes.

Feminists can't stop anyone from gaining popular support. No one muzzled Silverman. In the open market of ideas, he couldn't find enough buyers for his product.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:36 AM   #645
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Feminists can't stop anyone from gaining popular support. No one muzzled Silverman. In the open market of ideas, he couldn't find enough buyers for his product.
Because it wasn't an open market of ideas. What statistics were and weren't allowed onto government websites was decided by a single 'Women's Issues' politician in Canada, then that very same manipulated 'data' was used as evidence that his shelter wasn't needed. It was straight out of Franz Kafka.

Then people like you come along, shrugging your shoulders and blaming HIM for not selling his product well enough! Anything to avoid laying any blame on feminists or feminism.

And people wonder why MRAs get angry with feminists!
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:40 AM   #646
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
I'll just leave that there and, in the context of your other posts, let people reading decide for themselves whether you deserve to be insulted or not.
I also thought it was a good post. Showed you that I know more than you think about these people, while disagreeing with you regarding them being laudable. I find it especially interesting that one of your primary sources is a member of a hate group. Kinda put the pieces in place.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:40 AM   #647
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Many have contended that MRA's sabotage their own movement by spreading, or at least tolerating, misogynistic lies and tropes.
Many have contended that the earth in flat. You have consistently argued from your own profound ignorance of the movement and regarding these 'misogynistic lies and tropes' that MRAs apparently spread or at least tolerate so forgive me if I dismiss your 'point' as it is made without evidence.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:45 AM   #648
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I also thought it was a good post. Showed you that I know more than you think about these people, while disagreeing with you regarding them being laudable. I find it especially interesting that one of your primary sources is a member of a hate group. Kinda put the pieces in place.
You had absolutely no idea who they were until you googled them today. You proved this by using the present tense to describe Earl Silverman and making out that lectures by the person who set up the first domestic violence shelter in the world would somehow be a frivolous thing to have at a domestic violence shelter. And that attempt at a 'gotcha' is tragic.

And whether or not some non-official group of moral busybodies like the SPLC decides to classify anything as a 'hate group' or not is completely irrelevant to the veracity of statements made by anyone who associates with that group, or whether they are based on evidence or not. You fail to address a single point Pizzey has made in any article I link and are simply attempting guilt by association.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:48 AM   #649
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That's the crux of the issue. Many have contended that MRA's sabotage their own movement by spreading, or at least tolerating, misogynistic lies and tropes.

Feminists can't stop anyone from gaining popular support. No one muzzled Silverman. In the open market of ideas, he couldn't find enough buyers for his product.
The fact that feminists can't force their opinions on people doesn't mean they can't or don't influence people. The "open market of ideas" is a useful abstraction, but it doesn't actually work in an ideal manner. Most people don't carefully examine every idea in depth and objectively. It's quite common for people to form an opinion about some idea based on second-hand information about it. So if someone with some authority and popularity blasts the opinion of someone without standing, that carries a lot of weight, regardless of the actual merits of the positions involved.

And I don't really blame people for doing that. It saves time, and it often works. Your doctor tells you antivax stuff is wrong, and you believe him, because why bother trying to evaluate it yourself? But it's not error-proof, and when the people with standing try to suppress valid viewpoints from those without, they aren't above criticism for doing so.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 07:52 AM   #650
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I find it especially interesting that one of your primary sources is a member of a hate group.
Are you relying on the SPLC for this? Because I gotta tell ya, their list is kind of a fraud, and is mostly there for fundraising purposes. To go back to my earlier quote in this thread:
“Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket.” - Eric Hoffer
The SPLC is now well into the racket phase.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:02 AM   #651
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
You had absolutely no idea who they were until you googled them today. You proved this by using the present tense to describe Earl Silverman and making out that lectures by the person who set up the first domestic violence shelter in the world would somehow be a frivolous thing to have at a domestic violence shelter. And that attempt at a 'gotcha' is tragic.

And whether or not some non-official group of moral busybodies like the SPLC decides to classify anything as a 'hate group' or not is completely irrelevant to the veracity of statements made by anyone who associates with that group, or whether they are based on evidence or not. You fail to address a single point Pizzey has made in any article I link and are simply attempting guilt by association.
Sorry that the groups you follow are labeled as hate groups. It's the toxicity thing I've been mentioned all along.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:08 AM   #652
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The fact that feminists can't force their opinions on people doesn't mean they can't or don't influence people. The "open market of ideas" is a useful abstraction, but it doesn't actually work in an ideal manner. Most people don't carefully examine every idea in depth and objectively. It's quite common for people to form an opinion about some idea based on second-hand information about it. So if someone with some authority and popularity blasts the opinion of someone without standing, that carries a lot of weight, regardless of the actual merits of the positions involved.

And I don't really blame people for doing that. It saves time, and it often works. Your doctor tells you antivax stuff is wrong, and you believe him, because why bother trying to evaluate it yourself? But it's not error-proof, and when the people with standing try to suppress valid viewpoints from those without, they aren't above criticism for doing so.
I wouldn't blame feminism for the PR problems of the MRA. The most extreme, vile misogynists are very active in the public sphere. Whether or not this is fair reflection of the greater MRA movement is basically the topic of this entire thread.

A Voice for Men is the largest and most popular MRA publication. It's also reactionary and toxic, tending towards running sensationalist stories and peddling misogynistic and anti-feminist tropes. Any men's advocacy they do is largely a pretext for anti-feminist activity.

There is no mystery to why these groups fail to gain wider support.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:18 AM   #653
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Sorry that the groups you follow are labeled as hate groups. It's the toxicity thing I've been mentioned all along.
I've just now decided to class feminism as a 'hate group'. Perhaps you would like to tell me how that has any more or less authority behind it than the SPLC's classing of A Voice For Men as a hate group?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:20 AM   #654
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Cultural stereotypes about gender certainly do hurt men, and the ingrained cultural stereotypes of people are in general what people mean when they talk about the patriarchy. So yes there are issues and yes when it is someone from a feminist perspective talking about it they say it is the patriarchy hurting men. The thing about many of the ones dealing a men rights activists is that they seem to be more focused on attacking Feminism that working with feminists who actually agree with them on those issues.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:26 AM   #655
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Cultural stereotypes about gender certainly do hurt men, and the ingrained cultural stereotypes of people are in general what people mean when they talk about the patriarchy. So yes there are issues and yes when it is someone from a feminist perspective talking about it they say it is the patriarchy hurting men. The thing about many of the ones dealing a men rights activists is that they seem to be more focused on attacking Feminism that working with feminists who actually agree with them on those issues.
Are you suggesting that making October "Bash a Violent Bitch Month" is not productive?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:26 AM   #656
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Any men's advocacy they do is largely a pretext for anti-feminist activity.
'Anti-feminist' is not a synonym for 'wrong'. And I have explained to you about seven million times now how feminism is actively causing a huge number of men's issues so it is completely logical that a men's issues group will be anti-feminist.

You truly do sound brainwashed. You sound like someone talking about the medieval church or a medieval monarch. I'm not being hyperbolic; there's this feeling to your posts that the only thing you need to know is that something is critical of feminism for you to dismiss it completely as necessarily incorrect.

It's frightening to read. It comes across that you are prepared to accept anything based on evidence unless it is critical of feminism; it's like a religious fundamentalist.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:31 AM   #657
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Are you suggesting that making October "Bash a Violent Bitch Month" is not productive?
Deep breath. Deep breath.

That was a parody article in direct response to an unironic Jezebel article actively lauding its readers and writers for hitting their boyfriends and husbands. Paul Elam then wrote an article pretty much exactly mirroring the Jezebel one but with the genders reversed to show how people would be up in arms if the genders were flipped, and that is precisely what happened - now nobody knows about the Jezebel article and everyone knows about Elam's parody article as if it was written unironically and in isolation.

For goodness sake do some research beyond vice.com.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:33 AM   #658
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Are you suggesting that making October "Bash a Violent Bitch Month" is not productive?
And how all the internet searches for international men's day are around international women's day which is months away from international men's day.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:41 AM   #659
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Deep breath. Deep breath.

That was a parody article in direct response to an unironic Jezebel article actively lauding its readers and writers for hitting their boyfriends and husbands. Paul Elam then wrote an article pretty much exactly mirroring the Jezebel one but with the genders reversed to show how people would be up in arms if the genders were flipped, and that is precisely what happened - now nobody knows about the Jezebel article and everyone knows about Elam's parody article.

For goodness sake do some research beyond reading a VICE article.
The classic "it's just a joke" defense.

One might ask if mirroring a Jezebel article is worthwhile activity for anyone who actually wants to accomplish anything beyond internet flame wars. If the goal is to turn the frustration and anger of troubled young men towards feminism and women as a whole, it works great. If the goal is to actually accomplish something meaningful, not so much.

The war for rage clicks continues and MRA's remain as far as ever from actually making a positive improvement in the world.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:51 AM   #660
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The classic "it's just a joke" defense.
No, it wasn't a 'joke', it was meant to prove a point. Which it did, as you have just shown. Nobody cares when women hit their partners; nobody cares when women congratulate each other on hitting their partners. But if men do that...

I notice you've got nothing critical to say about the Jezebel article which was completely unironic and which congratulated its readers on hitting their partners.

I notice you've got nothing to say about that and its direct association to feminism and how it's feminism's fault for not distancing itself from these 'toxic' behaviours. I notice that you, as a feminist, knew nothing about that article and don't have to answer for it but I, as an MRA, have to answer for anything and everything any other MRA may have said or done or anything I say is immediately invalidated.

Isn't that strange?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 08:53 AM   #661
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If the goal is to turn the frustration and anger of troubled young men towards feminism and women as a whole, it works great. If the goal is to actually accomplish something meaningful, not so much.
How do you know? You've just proved that you don't know the first thing about A Voice For Men.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 09:53 AM   #662
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
I've just looked at that site and you aren't just ignorant you are actively cherry picking data. Everybody should go to that site and read the full list of statistics and come to their own conclusions about what dann is trying to do by isolating that one.

https://www.thehotline.org/resources/statistics/

Yes, please do! That was my vile intention when I provided you and everybody else with a link to the site!!!
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:33 AM   #663
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And how all the internet searches for international men's day are around international women's day which is months away from international men's day.
Mostly taking a break from this thread for the last few days but I want to chime in here since I'm still reading along:

This is I think quite obviously because no one HEARS about IMD, and so when IWD comes around, some people get curious. I can recall very few acknowledgments from governments or otherwise for IMD. I even recall making a thread about this ~3.5 years ago when a university apologized for planning to host some event and shut it down after people protested it's existence.

So no, people are merely ignorant of it's existence and don't think to look it up until they are reminded due to IWD existing and being largely celebrated by governments, schools and corporations.

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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:39 AM   #664
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I'll add my 2 cents on Paul Elam:

I've listened to him in discussions with others maybe 2 dozen times over the last few years, and generally think his attitude and beliefs don't line up with what you'd expect from the highlights people make of his website (like the BAVB month article being mentioned above).

That said, I don't particularly like him and do think that he causes some harm for the MRM's image. I also think far far fewer people both involved in the MRM and those peripherally aware of it would be completely ignorant to the topic had he not been such a blowhard. I can't recall where he has said this IIRC but that is basically his stated goal: be the loudest guy in the room to draw attention to the issues. That's why satire of extreme things like celebration of violence against women is something he has written about. I also think he's a bit too "anti-left" for my liking and that this shows in some of his political discussions.

Not a fan but I give him a tiny bit of respect for bringing attention to the issues without being violent and also making clear that his vitriolic writing is to get attention and that he doesn't actually support violence. Controversy gets views, I guess.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:18 PM   #665
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
I've just now decided to class feminism as a 'hate group'. Perhaps you would like to tell me how that has any more or less authority behind it than the SPLC's classing of A Voice For Men as a hate group?
People listen to the SLPC. Not so much you.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:23 PM   #666
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I'll add my 2 cents on Paul Elam:



I've listened to him in discussions with others maybe 2 dozen times over the last few years, and generally think his attitude and beliefs don't line up with what you'd expect from the highlights people make of his website (like the BAVB month article being mentioned above).



That said, I don't particularly like him and do think that he causes some harm for the MRM's image. I also think far far fewer people both involved in the MRM and those peripherally aware of it would be completely ignorant to the topic had he not been such a blowhard. I can't recall where he has said this IIRC but that is basically his stated goal: be the loudest guy in the room to draw attention to the issues. That's why satire of extreme things like celebration of violence against women is something he has written about. I also think he's a bit too "anti-left" for my liking and that this shows in some of his political discussions.



Not a fan but I give him a tiny bit of respect for bringing attention to the issues without being violent and also making clear that his vitriolic writing is to get attention and that he doesn't actually support violence. Controversy gets views, I guess.
He's a toxic alt-right wanker. One of the worst.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:40 PM   #667
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
Nobody cares when women hit their partners; nobody cares when women congratulate each other on hitting their partners. But if men do that...

Really?! Nobody???! Nobody at all?
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:51 PM   #668
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Really?! Nobody???! Nobody at all?
And of course that is a fairly recent change as well, so it shows how feminism does work and did help out. Look at all the casual violence against women seen in the 50's and 60's.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 12:51 PM   #669
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
He's a toxic alt-right wanker. One of the worst.
Alt-right? I'm going to have to hear justification for that one. One of the worst, too.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 01:34 PM   #670
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This guy?!
https://twitter.com/TakedownMRAs/sta...82255519444993
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Paul_Elam

He seems to have some weird alt-right friends:
http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/20...the-alt-right/
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd April 2019, 09:53 PM   #671
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I'll add my 2 cents on Paul Elam:
Completely agree with all that. I feel the same about Mike Buchanan; I often think, 'Do you actually want anyone to get a different impression of the MRM than the feminists try to make it out to be? Just stick to the facts.'

As we've seen, feminists will manufacture ammunition from thin air; people like Paul and Mike continually hand them bullets then complain when they get shot.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 09:56 PM   #672
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Just a quick note to say thanks and goodbye. This thread is over now; I know from countless, soul crushingly predictable experience that as soon as a discussion is infested with tubthumping, tribal ideologues that there's no further point trying to continue it as everyone will be too busy debunking the same ancient, thoroughly debunked claims and getting angry that they're having to waste their time doing that to have a thoughtful discussion.

The adults were talking but now the screaming children in the shape of dann, uke2ese and ponderingturtle are demanding everyone's attention and making a proper conversation impossible. They'll eventually attract more and the conversation will degenerate into nothing but a stream of guilt by association and quoting of buzzfeed, vice and wehuntedthemammoth headlines.

I'll dig out a funny video by bane666au that outlines these techniques in a parody 'How To Discuss MRAs As A Feminist' instructional video

Here we go: 'Bane's Feminist Masterclass: Writing A Feminist Article On The MRM'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXfblHGTwyk

See if anything sounds familiar

You cannot convince the ideologically blinded or the wilfully ignorant and I and others have provided more than enough material for anyone with any intellectual honesty to get a proper understanding of the subjects being discussed themselves.

I remain incredibly grateful to the group of reasonable, rational posters who contributed to an excellent 15 pages of productive discussion on this subject. Thank you
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Last edited by Georgio; 22nd April 2019 at 09:58 PM.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:13 PM   #673
dann
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
This thread is over now;
(...)
The adults were talking but now the screaming children in the shape of dann, uke2ese and ponderingturtle are demanding everyone's attention and making a proper conversation impossible.

I guess you've been abandoned, pharphis, now that the alleged adult has left the building!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd April 2019, 11:17 PM   #674
dann
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
As we've seen, feminists will manufacture ammunition from thin air; people like Paul and Mike continually hand them bullets then complain when they get shot.

Those feminists are really weird! On the one hand, "people like Paul and Mike continually hand them bullets," and yet they "will manufacture ammunition from thin air".
That doesn't even make metaphorical sense!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Yesterday, 02:03 AM   #675
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Alt-right? I'm going to have to hear justification for that one. One of the worst, too.
What kind of justification would you accept? I have plenty of articles quoting Elam himself spouting alt-right rhethoric. Example.
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Old Yesterday, 04:24 AM   #676
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I'll add my 2 cents on Paul Elam:

I've listened to him in discussions with others maybe 2 dozen times over the last few years, and generally think his attitude and beliefs don't line up with what you'd expect from the highlights people make of his website (like the BAVB month article being mentioned above).

That said, I don't particularly like him and do think that he causes some harm for the MRM's image. I also think far far fewer people both involved in the MRM and those peripherally aware of it would be completely ignorant to the topic had he not been such a blowhard. I can't recall where he has said this IIRC but that is basically his stated goal: be the loudest guy in the room to draw attention to the issues. That's why satire of extreme things like celebration of violence against women is something he has written about. I also think he's a bit too "anti-left" for my liking and that this shows in some of his political discussions.

Not a fan but I give him a tiny bit of respect for bringing attention to the issues without being violent and also making clear that his vitriolic writing is to get attention and that he doesn't actually support violence. Controversy gets views, I guess.
I suppose it gets views, but it also attracts extreme elements to the cause. Extremism precludes popular appeal of any legitimate gripes MRA might have.

The shock jock approach is one a limited lifespan. Eventually people get used to the extreme language and just filter it out as part of the background noise of nonsense.
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