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Old 18th April 2019, 12:44 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
I like 'The men who stare at goats' better.

OP maybe you can answer this one, It always seems to get avoided. Can I get pink eye in my 3rd eye?
No, but you can get hemorrhoids.
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Old 18th April 2019, 02:08 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
If the CIA was so convinved that remote viewing was real why did they stop trying to use it?

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Did they stop using it? Are you sure?

Why would anyone think of asking ?
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Old 18th April 2019, 05:21 AM   #43
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A few months ago, I listened to one of those NPR “To The Best Of Our Knowledge” segments dealing with this.
Furnished by a reporter who maintained that the US was indeed continuing this “research”, hopefully for doing things like psychically detecting IEDs along roadways....

The credibility of the report went into the tubes when the reporter began mentioning Uri Geller in breathless terms...
I sent in an e-mail to the show complaining about journalistic integrity, and got a reply to the effect that they knew Geller was a “controversial” figure but that they expected listeners to “judge for themselves”.
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Old 18th April 2019, 11:36 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Did they stop using it? Are you sure?
Yes, they were forced to stop in the mid-1980's by conservative Christians who sat on the House and Senate Intelligence Committees. Psychics = Satanism. I think I read this in an old Jack Anderson column.

Besides, technology was taking off like a rocket. Woo was no longer needed,
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Old 18th April 2019, 03:11 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Did they stop using it? Are you sure?


Oh I get it now, it was a joke complimenting Cosmic Yak's joke !

His was brilliant, as it plays well, whether you take it as sarcasm, or as if he was serious ! Genius!



Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
If the CIA was so convinved that remote viewing was real why did they stop trying to use it?


Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Did they stop using it? Are you sure?
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Old 18th April 2019, 03:23 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Oh I get it now, it was a joke complimenting Cosmic Yak's joke !

His was brilliant, as it plays well, whether you take it as sarcasm, or as if he was serious ! Genius!
So no actual answer then?
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Old 18th April 2019, 05:25 PM   #47
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No need.

They covered it very well. To my satisfaction anyway.

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Old 19th April 2019, 01:07 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by MattNelson View Post
How do you guys ignore remote viewers Pat Price, Joe McMoneagle, and Ingo Swann?
I don't ignore them. Occasionally I write about them on my blog but if you'd prefer to pick an example of remote viewing, then I'm happy to discuss it here.

As for the magnetometer experiment, I can't be of much help since I don't know anything about magnetometers and this informal experiment dated before Puthoff began work commissioned by the CIA, so there isn't a detailed contemporary description of it that I can find.

http://ersby.blogspot.com/search/label/Remote%20Viewing
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Old 19th April 2019, 10:10 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Ersby View Post
I don't ignore them. Occasionally I write about them on my blog but if you'd prefer to pick an example of remote viewing, then I'm happy to discuss it here.

As for the magnetometer experiment, I can't be of much help since I don't know anything about magnetometers and this informal experiment dated before Puthoff began work commissioned by the CIA, so there isn't a detailed contemporary description of it that I can find.

http://ersby.blogspot.com/search/label/Remote%20Viewing

From your blog:

Quote:
....Angela Ford (then called Dellafiore) was one of the remote viewers at that time and in her interview with CBS she describes it:

“I said the man was in Lowell, Wyoming, and I spelt it L-O-W-E-L-L. [...] Well, when my boss went to Customs and said ‘we’re still getting the Wyoming feeling,’ Customs said ‘As we're speaking we're apprehending Charles Jordan 100 miles west of Lovell, Wyoming’.”

Out of all the claims of success for Project Stargate, this one is perhaps the most striking. Tasked with finding a man on the run who, after three years as a fugitive, could be anywhere on the American continent, and yet succeeding in naming a town within a hundred miles of his ultimate place of arrest is very impressive.

Such hogwash. Obviously it was merely a lucky guess. Not only that, it wasnt even spelled correctly, fer cripes sake.

Yet another wackjob fairy tale proving that materialists rule !
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Old 19th April 2019, 12:52 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
From your blog:

Such hogwash. Obviously it was merely a lucky guess. Not only that, it wasnt even spelled correctly, fer cripes sake.

Yet another wackjob fairy tale proving that materialists rule !
This is the post in question:

http://ersby.blogspot.com/2018/04/pr...rdan-case.html

That would be a very lucky guess. But bear in mind that the fugitive was actually found 250 miles away from Lowell so its status as a "hit" is in doubt. And, as I wrote, the contents of the episode of America's Most Wanted that featured Charlie Jordan a few months previously may hold a clue as to why she said Lowell in the first place.
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Old 19th April 2019, 01:10 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Ersby View Post
This is the post in question:

http://ersby.blogspot.com/2018/04/pr...rdan-case.html

That would be a very lucky guess. But bear in mind that the fugitive was actually found 250 miles away from Lowell so its status as a "hit" is in doubt. And, as I wrote, the contents of the episode of America's Most Wanted that featured Charlie Jordan a few months previously may hold a clue as to why she said Lowell in the first place.


I heard the guy was actually in Lowell when she 'saw' him there, before they nabbed him.

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Old 19th April 2019, 01:27 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Ersby View Post
This is the post in question:

http://ersby.blogspot.com/2018/04/pr...rdan-case.html

That would be a very lucky guess. But bear in mind that the fugitive was actually found 250 miles away from Lowell so its status as a "hit" is in doubt. And, as I wrote, the contents of the episode of America's Most Wanted that featured Charlie Jordan a few months previously may hold a clue as to why she said Lowell in the first place.

Were the conditions for a successful hit defined beforehand? Did those conditions include getting some letters of a town within 250 miles correct? And, most importantly, did the information aid anybody in any way?

BTW, 250 miles away gives an acceptable area of approximately 196,343 square miles. That's bigger than the state of California.
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Old 19th April 2019, 05:18 PM   #53
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I can say that the Zodiac Killer lived within a 250 mile radius of San Francisco, CA. I can also say that if he's dead, and opted for burial, his grave is also within that 250 mile radius.

Where do I sign up for that True Crime-Solving Psychic TV show?
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Old 19th April 2019, 09:58 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
I heard the guy was actually in Lowell when she 'saw' him there, before they nabbed him.
I've heard this too, but I can't find anything that backs this up definitively. It's possible, though. She must have been somewhere in the vicinity otherwise the DIA wouldn't have suddenly asked her for another remote viewing session after two months.
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Old 19th April 2019, 10:08 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Were the conditions for a successful hit defined beforehand? Did those conditions include getting some letters of a town within 250 miles correct?
A remote viewing session was all about getting visual impressions and building on those. There are no real predefined conditions for what constitutes a hit. Any imagery they got that can be related to the target is usually called a "hit".

Quote:
And, most importantly, did the information aid anybody in any way?
No. It was a lead from a VHS home video they found when the police searched Charlie Jordan's parent's house, iirc.
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Old 19th April 2019, 11:59 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Ersby View Post
Any imagery they got that can be related to the target is usually called a "hit".
Hence they fool themselves into thinking the hit rate is better than would be expected by chance, even though properly conducted and blinded test protocols would prove it isn't. AKA retroactive clairvoyance.

I realise you already know this very well, Ersby, but it appears the OP is still visiting the forum even though he hasn't posted recently, and I am choosing to hope that he is sufficiently open minded to be learning something.
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Old 20th April 2019, 04:44 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
I heard the guy was actually in Lowell when she 'saw' him there, before they nabbed him.
Careful, Bubba. You're dangerously close to expressing an actual opinion.
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Old 20th April 2019, 07:58 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Hence they fool themselves into thinking the hit rate is better than would be expected by chance, even though properly conducted and blinded test protocols would prove it isn't. AKA retroactive clairvoyance.

I realise you already know this very well, Ersby, but it appears the OP is still visiting the forum even though he hasn't posted recently, and I am choosing to hope that he is sufficiently open minded to be learning something.
Regarding the OP, I actually have watched the film Third Eye Spies and while it's okay as entertainment it does a poor job of examining any of the claims being made. And, in all honesty, there are a lot. It's almost like a Greatest Hits of remote viewing but to properly assess these claims could take somebody years. The effort isn't worth it simply to debunk one film. As it happens, I've already been researching this for years so I have a bit of a head start.
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Old 21st April 2019, 01:46 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post

Such hogwash. Obviously it was merely a lucky guess. Not only that, it wasnt even spelled correctly, fer cripes sake.

Yet another wackjob fairy tale proving that materialists rule !
For once, you are correct.
It was hogwash, and not even a lucky guess:

https://centerforinquiry.org/blog/cb...t_see_so_well/
Quote:
Allegedly, Ford said fugitive Charlie Jordan was in Wyoming at “Lowell” near an “Indian burial place.” Now, police had independently spotted Jordan’s vehicle outside Denver, apparently heading toward Wyoming. There is no “Lowell” in that state, and Lovell, Wyoming, has no Native American burial site. While there is such a site at Pinedale—where Jordan was arrested—Pinedale is over 300 miles from Lovell. So it looks like Ford may have been advised about Wyoming and later engaged in what is known as “retrofitting” (after-the-fact matching of details). Then word of mouth transformed the story into a folktale.
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Old 21st April 2019, 08:06 PM   #60
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Chief Warrant Officer Joe McMoneagle, Remote Viewer 001 of Project Stargate got the Legion of Merit Award, which came with a letter reading:

"While with his command he used his talents and expertise in the execution of more than 200 missions, addressing over 150 essential elements of information. These EEI contained critical intelligence reported at the highest echelons of our military and government, including such national level agencies as the Joint Chiefs of Staff, DIA, NSA, CIA, DEA, and the Secret Service, producing crucial and vital intelligence unavailable from any other source."
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Old 21st April 2019, 10:21 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by MattNelson View Post
Chief Warrant Officer Joe McMoneagle, Remote Viewer 001 of Project Stargate got the Legion of Merit Award, which came with a letter reading:

"While with his command he used his talents and expertise in the execution of more than 200 missions, addressing over 150 essential elements of information. These EEI contained critical intelligence reported at the highest echelons of our military and government, including such national level agencies as the Joint Chiefs of Staff, DIA, NSA, CIA, DEA, and the Secret Service, producing crucial and vital intelligence unavailable from any other source."
That’s right, although the fact he received a Legion of Merit doesn’t tell us about his skills as a remote viewer.

Stephan Schwartz reads from the letter that accompanied Joe McMoneagle’s Legion of Merit during the film at 1:09:35. He does so with the clear implication that it was the result of gratitude of an impartial third party who were pleased with the information McMoneagle obtained via remote viewing.

However, the Legion of Merit was, in fact, initiated by and written by members of the remote viewing project. It is mentioned in the minutes of a meeting (at the start of the second page) here:

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...00220008-3.pdf

Which includes the sentence: "LTC Buzby addressed three areas to the CG. The first area was a retirement award for CW2 McMoneagle."

The text of the Legion of Merit itself was written by fellow remote viewer Paul Smith, as he describes in his book Reading the Enemy's Mind: Inside Star Gate: America's Psychic Espionage Program

“It was about this time that Buzby ordered me to draft the text for Joe’s retirement award. It was to be a Legion of Merit, one of the highest peacetime awards a retiring soldier can be given. Such an award covers the ten-year period before the person is due to leave active duty, so I had to dig up information about Joe’s time as a signals intelligence analyst and operator. But my main focus was to be his service as a remote viewer. I had to word this carefully, since mentioning psychic espionage would instantly make the award highly classified. But I was now fairly competent at stating the truth without giving anything away.”

So the Legion of Merit was not a spontaneous act by some government official who was so impressed by the information Joe had passed on, but a retirement award arranged by the remote viewing project itself.
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Old 21st April 2019, 10:35 PM   #62
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Did Chief Warrant Officer Joe McMoneagle ever take and pass a properly designed and blinded test of his supposed ability? AFAIK Project Star Gate included no such tests.
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Old 21st April 2019, 10:51 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Did Chief Warrant Officer Joe McMoneagle ever take and pass a properly designed and blinded test of his supposed ability? AFAIK Project Star Gate included no such tests.
That would be classified information
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Old 21st April 2019, 11:05 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Did Chief Warrant Officer Joe McMoneagle ever take and pass a properly designed and blinded test of his supposed ability? AFAIK Project Star Gate included no such tests.
That depends how you define "properly". The initial training to choose the army remote viewers was designed to be double-blind, but that was with Targ and Puthoff. And I have... issues with some of their descriptions of their own experiments.

The link below goes to a pdf that shows some results from the first few months of the remote viewing project after the training was done. There's no blind matching to a number of potential targets, but a somewhat nebulous "target correlation" concept. Even with this, the results aren't good.

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...00310004-2.pdf
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Old Yesterday, 01:33 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Ersby View Post
That depends how you define "properly". The initial training to choose the army remote viewers was designed to be double-blind, but that was with Targ and Puthoff. And I have... issues with some of their descriptions of their own experiments.

The link below goes to a pdf that shows some results from the first few months of the remote viewing project after the training was done. There's no blind matching to a number of potential targets, but a somewhat nebulous "target correlation" concept. Even with this, the results aren't good.

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...00310004-2.pdf
You're not kidding. 133 test runs subjectively assessed for accuracy on a scale of 1 to 7 (where 1 means no correlation and 7 means the target was correctly identified), and only 9 (6%) were rated higher than 3. With no attempt to establish an objective baseline for the expected chance hit rate I can only give my own subjective assessment, which is: pathetic.
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Old Yesterday, 11:53 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by MattNelson View Post
Chief Warrant Officer Joe McMoneagle, Remote Viewer 001 of Project Stargate got the Legion of Merit Award, which came with a letter reading:
Barack Obama, Henry Kissinger and Yasser Arafat all won the Nobel Peace Prize. Jethro Tull won a Grammy for "best heavy metal album"
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Old Yesterday, 02:44 PM   #67
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Either it works or it doesn't.

It took 12 years to find bin Laden, and even then we weren't 100% certain he was in the building until we found him and shot him.

Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri remains at large.

Maylasia Airlines Flight 370 remains missing.

The list of things remote viewers have not found is very long.
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Old Yesterday, 03:05 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Either it works or it doesn't.

It took 12 years to find bin Laden, and even then we weren't 100% certain he was in the building until we found him and shot him.

Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri remains at large.

Maylasia Airlines Flight 370 remains missing.

The list of things remote viewers have not found is very long.
Hey now, They are 100% for finding things after the fact.
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Old Yesterday, 04:18 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Ersby View Post
That’s right, although the fact he received a Legion of Merit doesn’t tell us about his skills as a remote viewer.

Stephan Schwartz reads from the letter that accompanied Joe McMoneagle’s Legion of Merit during the film at 1:09:35. He does so with the clear implication that it was the result of gratitude of an impartial third party who were pleased with the information McMoneagle obtained via remote viewing.

However, the Legion of Merit was, in fact, initiated by and written by members of the remote viewing project. It is mentioned in the minutes of a meeting (at the start of the second page) here:

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...00220008-3.pdf

Which includes the sentence: "LTC Buzby addressed three areas to the CG. The first area was a retirement award for CW2 McMoneagle."

The text of the Legion of Merit itself was written by fellow remote viewer Paul Smith, as he describes in his book Reading the Enemy's Mind: Inside Star Gate: America's Psychic Espionage Program

“It was about this time that Buzby ordered me to draft the text for Joe’s retirement award. It was to be a Legion of Merit, one of the highest peacetime awards a retiring soldier can be given. Such an award covers the ten-year period before the person is due to leave active duty, so I had to dig up information about Joe’s time as a signals intelligence analyst and operator. But my main focus was to be his service as a remote viewer. I had to word this carefully, since mentioning psychic espionage would instantly make the award highly classified. But I was now fairly competent at stating the truth without giving anything away.”

So the Legion of Merit was not a spontaneous act by some government official who was so impressed by the information Joe had passed on, but a retirement award arranged by the remote viewing project itself.
Thanks for that source info. It seems Mr. McMoneagle deserved an award for providing actionable intelligence.
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Old Yesterday, 05:35 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Either it works or it doesn't.

It took 12 years to find bin Laden, and even then we weren't 100% certain he was in the building until we found him and shot him.

Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri remains at large.

Maylasia Airlines Flight 370 remains missing.

The list of things remote viewers have not found is very long.
Hey, slow down there. Plenty of remote viewers have said 370 will be found near water.
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Old Yesterday, 09:44 PM   #71
Ersby
Fortean
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,880
Originally Posted by MattNelson View Post
Thanks for that source info. It seems Mr. McMoneagle deserved an award for providing actionable intelligence.
He deserved an award for twenty years service in the army, but the "actionable intelligence" part was just the remote viewing team patting themselves on the back.

Perhaps you'd like to put forward an example of intelligence that was acted upon and we can discuss it.
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