|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
11th June 2021, 11:31 PM | #1 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
|
- I Miss Those Days -
I miss the days when I was growing up. Back then, "organized skepticism" wasn't a thing, at least not like it is now. I spent hours and hours reading about the paranormal. Ghosts, Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster (my favorite). I had my own theories and a there was a certain wonderment.
Now days I'm just a boring, run-of-the-mill skeptic. It's easy to be a skeptic, but it isn't that much fun. |
11th June 2021, 11:58 PM | #2 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,382
|
You just need to shift your focus to the incredible universe we are all in.
Light can be a particle or a wave. How does that happen? We can see that objects bend space-time and gravity is the effect, but is gravity also a particle? And time, that is an incredible thing to ponder. The distances across the universe are too immense to fathom. Some of the light from the stars we are looking at left those stars billions of years ago and we can't see what they look like now. Black holes, neutron stars, quasars, life has to be out there, ... Need me to make a longer list? BTW, I loved all that stuff when I was a kid too. You must know about the moving stones in the dry lakebed in Death Valley? I went there to see them for myself. Ever hear of the Ica Stones? I went to see those as well and flew in a small plane over the Nazca Lines. You don't have to believe the stones are what they are claimed to be and you don't need to think the Nazca Lines have an ET origin to be fascinated seeing them. |
12th June 2021, 10:43 AM | #3 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 6,863
|
|
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha |
|
12th June 2021, 11:09 AM | #4 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,145
|
I agree to a degree. But besides, as SG has mentioned, the wonders of the actual universe, history is full of oddities and weirdness that rivals the fantasies of von Däniken.
The importance of the forgotten dress-suit of the Duke of Wellington to the development of electric telegraphy; the occupation by ap Catesby Jones of the town of Monterey, the Great Sheep Panic of 1888, the mystery of what happened in 1808, William John Cavendish Cavendish-Scott-Bentinck (not to be confused with any other Mad Dukes), Albert Göring, Battle for Castle Itter,....et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. |
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
|
12th June 2021, 12:32 PM | #5 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 36,111
|
You can also look at it in another way. Believing in paranormal stuff is fun in a way, but it's no intellectual challenge. If the reason you see a ghost is because there are ghosts, it's all over. If you see a miracle, saying "god did it" ends the search for understanding.
As a skeptic you can still acknowledge that confusing, mysterious and even inexplicable things are out there, but also that there is no simple "black box" conclusion. As an intellectual challenge it can be more interesting to try to figure out how such confusing things happen. |
__________________
Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
|
12th June 2021, 01:14 PM | #6 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 1,350
|
The Society for Psychical Research was founded in the 1880s. You must be old indeed to have been a child before then. Instead of being nostalgic, you should actually be angry. Popular paranomal works like "Chariots of the Gods" "Life after Life", "The Devil's Triangle", etc. were largely known to be garbage at the time they were written. "Organized Skepticism" just finally managed to get the word out to the mass audience targeted by their tripe.
|
12th June 2021, 02:02 PM | #7 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
|
I forgot about The Bermuda Triangle and Chariots of the Gods...that was great stuff! I mean, for a child, anyway. And who can forget reading about Bigfoot back then? UFO's? Some may just consider these things "tripe", but I'd like to think that they were somewhat mind-expanding for a young child.
What is very fascinating, though, is how many adults staunchly believed in those things, at the time. That's why I feel that we are in a much different age of skepticism, now. |
12th June 2021, 02:06 PM | #8 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 96,382
|
|
12th June 2021, 02:09 PM | #9 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
|
|
12th June 2021, 02:11 PM | #10 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
Yeah, the good old days of polio, smallpox, death by measles, rubella and all that.
Those were great times when one could have the excitement of wondering as a child whether or not one make it to adulthood. We lived every day as though it was our last. Because it likely was. On planet sausage. |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
12th June 2021, 04:50 PM | #11 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 1,135
|
|
12th June 2021, 05:38 PM | #12 |
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 28,589
|
My journey to being a skeptic was kind of unique, at least as far as I've been able to tell from talking to other skeptics. It started out a little disingenuously.
I spent the first half of my childhood living on Air Force bases, and it wasn't until after my parents retired and we transitioned to civilian life that I developed an interest in the paranormal and UFOs, but it was a deep interest. I read about the stuff voraciously. And I made close friends who were as into it, or nearly so, as I was. Round about high school I was starting to kind of miss things about my "previous life" and began to nurture whatever attachments to it that I still had, and form new pseudo-attachments where I could. It's complicated so I won't delve into it; but to make a long story short I ended up switching my outward attitude to "UFOs aren't aliens" because that was the Air Force's position* and the Air Force was my "home team", even though I wasn't genuinely convinced at that time that that was the case. Supporting my new position meant having to read skeptical books so I knew what the arguments were. Some of the more influential books I read were "Crash Go the Chariots" by Clifford Wilson, "UFOs: The Public Deceived" by Philip Klass, and "The Bermuda Triangle Mystery Solved" by Larry Kusche. Once I started directly reading what skeptics were actually saying about these subjects, instead of only reading what paranormal enthusiasts said the skeptics were saying, my thinking began to turn honestly. Reading typical paranormal books and watching the shows from then on, I noticed how often they referred to each other as sources, and continued to uncritically repeat old staple stories that I had recently discovered to actually be fake, or heavily fictionalized, really soured me on the whole genre. |
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 |
|
12th June 2021, 07:34 PM | #13 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 6,863
|
Excuse me, that should read "The Mexican Capitol of Alta California, Monterey".
He took my city after 10 minute shelling of the Presidio after which the Mexican Army Garrison raised the white flag. The locals were thrilled and there was non-stop partying for a few days because everyone hated the Mexican Government. Then a rider came up from Long Beach with orders for Jones to apologize and hand the city back to Mexico since we weren't at war (yet). Mexico billed the US Government $38 to cover some damage and to replace a Mexican Army tuba. Way better than a ghost story. |
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha |
|
12th June 2021, 09:08 PM | #14 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
|
|
12th June 2021, 10:34 PM | #15 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 1,350
|
This one was the beginning of the end for my dalliance with paranormal stuff as a kid. The 70s also brought Uri Geller's "performance" on the Tonight Show with Randi's props as well as a couple NOVA specials about van Daniken's claims and about the Bermuda Triangle. And still I encountered enthusiasts who pretended none of these problems existed for their pet claims.
|
13th June 2021, 04:52 AM | #16 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,145
|
OK, without wishing to derail too much here are a few threads:
The Carnival Showman Who Saved Six Thousand Babies The Nuclear Ice City Gateway of the Underworld Culex pipiens molestus, the London Underground mosquito The Historical trivia thread. My own Historical Oddities thread. I recommend Strange Company Now, as for the Duke of Wellington. The history of telegraphy, electrical and optical, dates back to the 1790s but the main drivers are the USAian painter (and 'get rich quick' schemer) Samuel Morse, and the UKian maker of wax anatomical models, William Fothergill Cooke. Who hated each other (well once they'd met). Both men were messing around with sending electrical signals down wires to carry messages, but neither has the scientific education to solve the range problem (about fifty metres) until they teamed up with Leonard Gale and Charles Wheatstone. (The answer is relays). They both finally managed to make (mainly) working prototypes. Then they ran into the hardest problem of all, getting people to buy into their scheme. It was analogous to the 1990s when newspaper and magazine companies couldn't foresee the impact of this newfangled "internet" thing. The both raised enough money to construct prototype lines. Morse's ran Washington-to-Baltimore and carried the news of Whig National Convention nominees to Washington an hour before the news arrived by train. Cooke also managed to get a trial line working, and also scored big on a 'scoop'. A far-seeing reporter fromThe Times sent the news of the birth of Queen Victoria's second son to the newspaper and a 'special' was printed and on the streets less than an hour after the event at Windsor. Suddenly The Times was a fervent supporter of the telegraph. Now after the happy birth (of Alfred, later Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha) there was a banquet. Three trainloads of the House of Lords headed down. But, disaster struck!!! The Duke of Wellington forgot his dress suit. He telegraphed London and his valet brought it on the following train. Suddenly the 'Iron Duke' realised the value of this newfangled gadget. Also I thoroughly recommend the TV series and book Connections by James Burke. Still relevant forty years later. |
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
|
13th June 2021, 05:36 AM | #17 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,145
|
He was only out by four years....
It's interesting that the incident effectively killed any chance of the US peacefully acquiring California. BTW I recommend Long's excellent book Gold Braid and Foreign Relations: Diplomatic Activities of U.S. Naval Officers, 1798-1883 for tales of the Good Old Days when officers made it up as they went along without satellite comms or even radio. |
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
|
13th June 2021, 09:23 AM | #18 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 10,589
|
I haven't read the book, but I did see the movie in a theater shortly after its release. For about the first half of the movie, I was into it, and feeling the appropriate vicarious fear. Then it got so ridiculous that it broke my suspension of disbelief and from then on my reaction to most of the events in the movie was, "Come on, you can't be serious."
|
13th June 2021, 11:18 AM | #19 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
|
The first time I watched it, I was pretty young...around 8 y/o. My parents were with me and it was a drive-in theater. I spent a lot of the time ducking down and not watching the screen, because I was scared. The sound of the growls and such still left an impression, though.
Later, and by that time I was starting to read about the occult, it just totally creeped me out. My parents believed in angels and demons, and they told me that it was a true story. Then a co-worker of my dad claimed to have grown up in the neighborhood where it all "happened". Urban myths, of course. A big turning point for me in regards to film (and skepticism) was when I realized that "based on" or "inspired by" a true story meant nothing. This was probably sometime in my mid-late teens. I bet that a lot of people still watch movies like The Conjuring and believe them to be true stories, amazingly. All that being said, The Exorcist still creeps me out. |
13th June 2021, 11:29 AM | #20 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
|
I remember reading the Bermuda Triangle books, and how they managed to a inject a potential UFO element into the story of Flight 19. Ridiculous fiction, presented as fact! When I see people comment on the latest UFO videos released by the government, I am reminded of the same thing. Rather than theorize about drone technology or other known phenomenon, some people instantly conclude that there is an underwater alien base.
|
13th June 2021, 11:35 AM | #21 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 6,332
|
As frequent subjects of skepticism become more mainstream we can expect organized efforts to combat the harm they may cause (or just for fun).
I strive to live the E in JREF. Education goes hand in hand with skepticism/critical thinking and should inform the approach to a topic. It might be enough to say there is no hard evidence out there of Bigfoot and leave it at that. Most people don't have enough free time to mess with it any further. But it certainly helps to be able to explain the ecological constraints on large mammals in the region where Bigfoot supposedly lives and phenomena associated with real living beings that make its existence unlikely. |
13th June 2021, 11:46 AM | #22 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 1,135
|
|
13th June 2021, 12:05 PM | #23 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 1,135
|
Oh, and Connections gets revisited every few years.
|
13th June 2021, 12:23 PM | #24 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,145
|
|
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
|
13th June 2021, 12:30 PM | #25 |
View clearer from above.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 17,158
|
Fiction is fun, but reality can be just as fun, or imo, more so.
|
__________________
HygrSym brought up some fantastic points. He's so good, he doesn't have to use pseudo words like 'chillax'... -FSM |
|
13th June 2021, 01:34 PM | #26 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
|
I get where you are coming from. But, living in a world where people can bend spoons with their mind, dinosaurs live in lakes, and mysterious giant primates roam the forests...well, it is kind of compelling. Skepticism can be limiting to the imagination. But, once you are a skeptic, there is no going back.
|
13th June 2021, 02:43 PM | #27 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 36,111
|
While I get what you're saying, sort of, I think it really does depend on what kind of imagination you're talking about. Magical thinking involves a certain level of imagination, but it ends fairly early because cause is simply not a factor. If you say "this happened by magic" you've pretty much said it. You can make stories with that, and fuss around with hunts for the magical formulas and stuff, but you never really have to dig deep and figure out why a thing does what it does. Reality demands that you do, and if you can't you're left with a real mystery, not a fictional one. The mysteries of reality are mind-bogglingly big and cosmic.
To pick a trivial example, what ends up more interesting and challenging: seeing a juggler and saying "god keeps the balls up," or learning to juggle? |
__________________
Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
|
13th June 2021, 02:46 PM | #28 | |||
Skepticifimisticalationist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 28,589
|
Well, right now some solid UFO nuts who are getting airtime like Mellon and Elizondo are playing along with the "possibly drones" explanation just because they've discovered that it's a foot in the door to getting UFO's taken "seriously" by Congress and the media. But they don't really believe it, and it's only a matter of time before they revert to openly rejecting such mundane explanations.
Speaking of which though, one of my earliest cognitive-dissonance moments involved Flight 19. Charles Berlitz's book about the Bermuda Triangle showcased some (imaginary) messages allegedly received from Flight 19 by an amateur radio operator after the final messages of the "official" transcript. I forget exactly what the messages were verbatim according to the book, but I recall that they were vague and there was a cryptic statement like "what is that?" or "do you think they're friendly?" or something along those lines, obviously intended to be interpreted as probably references to UFOs the flight had encountered. Not long later I watched a "documentary" which explicitly frames itself as about the Charles Berlitz book in particular, but in its dramatization of Flight 19 it includes a final message that talks about "lights" and "vehicles" and "outer space" that never appeared even in Berlitz's book. As a kid who was convinced that the book was accurate, I remember getting frustrated at the TV for "just making stuff up". Sadly that moment was NOT the beginning of my skeptical epiphany, ha! You can watch that "documentary" by the way, right here. Its version of Flight 19's "final message" begins at about 24:18.
|
|||
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 |
||||
13th June 2021, 03:12 PM | #29 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
|
At the same time, what stimulates the imagination more: Theorizing how an old lake might include a vast ecosystem that supports the existence of Plesiosaurs and/or other surviving dinosaurs, or just realizing that the most famous photo is just a cheap toy, and a hoax?
There are huge mysteries in regards to things such as creation. However, the human mind is far too limited to grasp the answers. The concept of "something from nothing" is not soon to be reconciled, for humans. We are left trying to conceptualize something we will never fully understand, and to do so within the constraints of our physical understanding of the universe. |
13th June 2021, 04:03 PM | #30 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 36,111
|
True, some of those mysteries just go "poof." And some of the mysteries are so big they'll always elude us. I guess we need to find things somewhere between.
I do confess that since I was never very taken by supernatural stuff, I do not feel the loss, so probably cannot give concise advice on how to compensate for it. |
__________________
Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
|
13th June 2021, 05:33 PM | #31 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 1,350
|
And it isn't as if one has to choose. Fiction is still fun when you know it's fiction. And theorizing about lakes that house pleiosaurs can be tons of fun without believing said pleisoaurs real, just like it can be fun to speculate on how Klingon versus Romulan cloaking devices work. Kill the boy, that the nerd may live.
|
13th June 2021, 08:44 PM | #32 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 6,863
|
I haven't been out on a "ghost hunt" in about 16 years since I returned to college where I took a bunch of science classes for fun. Being a skeptic doesn't require someone to stay away from various topics, it means you view those topics with an active critical mind. I don't buy as many ghost books as I used to but every once in a while I pick something up for a fun read.
Another point is that I can't think of any skeptic who wouldn't be thrilled to see someone haul in the Loch Ness Monster or capture a Sasquatch or have aliens land on the Mall in Washington D.C. The problem is there is a standard of proof that is mostly universal, and none of these phenomenon have met the standard. This doesn't mean you have to quit looking because the things you find along the way are often just as important. Thanks to the many expeditions at Loch Ness since the 1930s the UK has a remarkable biological record of animal life and water samples taken at a variety of depths which today help chart the effects of climate change. I'm still up for a spook hunt but the difference today is I'm not limited to a single way of thinking, and I work the physical evidence first instead of going the intellectually lazy route of claiming it's a mystery. More fun now than before being a skeptic. |
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha |
|
14th June 2021, 01:28 AM | #33 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
|
|
14th June 2021, 07:08 AM | #34 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,145
|
True. Many of the oddities I collect are fodder for my gaming scenarios.
Whether it's the odd connections between the mass murderer Marcel Petiot and the CIA precursor 'The Pond' (a story loaded with bizarre happenings). Or the oddities surrounding al-Muqanna, the Masked Prophet, complete with alchemical experiments and magic sword. Plus links from everyone from Napoleon to Thomas Moore, Freemasonry to occultists. And even a debutante ball... Or individuals like Barnard Gregory, the founder and publisher of The Satirist newspaper, complete with dozens of court cases, multiple imprisonments and long term feuds with the Marquess of Blandford, Charles, Duke of Brunswick and others. Oh and he's connected to the notorious murder of a Welsh prostitute named Eliza Grinwood. |
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
|
14th June 2021, 07:44 AM | #35 |
Unbanned zombie poster
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 18,384
|
So you trade bigfoot for shapeshifting reptilians
The Bermuda triangle for pizza parlor pedophilia sex trafficking Chariots of the gods for the electric universe UFOs for UVFOs (Unknown Voter Fraud Operations) The credulity ratio hasn't really shifted to the skeptic side. Heck, many of the people who I meet who proclaim these things actually consider themselves to be skeptics since they question and doubt 'the official story'. However, I do grant that the wackiness increased considerably as well as being disturbingly darker. I'd take the former over the latter in that list all day long. Particularly for kids, it's as if all the bigfoot stories were now about them ripping peoples heads off and eating them. At least you could get into the potential benevolence of the older stuff. That doesn't even seem to be an option any more. The stuff theses days appears to be intentionally as malevolent as possible. |
__________________
BRAINZZZZZZZZ |
|
14th June 2021, 11:54 AM | #36 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 6,863
|
|
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha |
|
14th June 2021, 01:52 PM | #37 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
|
I know this is a little off-topic, but do you think that the belief in reptilians is widespread? It seems very fringe to me, but I am not in/around that community.
Whereas, in the 70's, Bigfoot was practically a cult icon. I remember it being a very, very popular belief. Supposed sightings were everywhere, books, movies, etc.. I think cryptozoology, in general, was a bigger thing back then. |
14th June 2021, 02:25 PM | #38 |
Unbanned zombie poster
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 18,384
|
Bigfoot was a fringe belief, as far as I recall back then as well. Of course I wasn't around that community, I just recall the tv shows, like the Six Million Dollar Man. Made it seem more ridiculous (along with the 'documentaries') than serious. Heck, in the 80s there was a whole TV series about reptilian aliens taking over the world. They weren't shape shifters per se but just generally significantly more advanced (like mission impossible level) in the prosthetic arts.
Sure cryptozoology was bigger back then, you had nessie, the lake Erie version Bessie, bigfoot, his colder cousin, that chupacabra amigo, Jersey devil, ect..ect. I remember some televised expedition to Loch Ness around that time (underwater camera just showed the water murkier than the Hudson around here) that made the mid 80's Al Capone's vault opening look like the treasure room from national treasure (at least you could see inside the dang vault). ETA: I remember seeing the Chariots of the Gods movie and while being disappointed (just too much conflation, conjecture and seeing what they want to see in just art). However I still held out hope back than that we were at least worth aliens going to the trouble of visiting. Not too much later I learned how much trouble it actually was and how worthless (except as a cautionary tale) we, as a society, were. |
__________________
BRAINZZZZZZZZ |
|
14th June 2021, 05:49 PM | #39 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,583
|
|
15th June 2021, 09:15 AM | #40 | |||
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 24,921
|
God. That was a great series and book.
And. Yay. Some episodes (at least) are available on YouTube:
|
|||
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick |
||||
Thread Tools | |
|
|