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Old Today, 01:24 PM   #1441
JoeMorgue
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The way I see it, "invisible" is just short-hand for "no testable properties". And "visible" is just shorthand for "at least one testable property".

There's a difference between a god that can be tested, but hasn't been tested yet due to circumstance, and a god that can't be tested by definition.

The dragon in the garage is an illustration of the process by which a god that could be tested in principle evolves into a god that cannot be tested, as it fails each of the tests proposed.

I think this is different from a god of the gaps, which is essentially a god that can still be tested in principle, but has only testable properties that have not yet been tested.
It's functionally the same because the core problem remains the same, any testable way to determine if X is true or not; either absolutely with definitive proof or even with just some evidence one way or the other is never going to be valid now, the only difference is whether you adjust the variables on the thing being test (i.e. "Oh... oh okay well... ah... my dragon's invisible! Yeah that's it invisible!") or adjust the variables on whatever is being test (as in "Can your precious science explain THIS without a God? What's that? Oh it can... oh... well I knew that... but can it explain THIS without a God?")

God of the Gaps and the Dragon in the Garage are the same thing, just from different angles, either adding stuff to the one side the equation to give a reason why this or that test "doesn't count" or adding stuff to the other side of the equation and claim we need to maybe keep God on the table as possible to explain this or that.

If anything the Dragon in the Garage metaphor is even more intellectually valid. If I really wanted to make a 1:1 comparison after I took you into the garage to show you my dragon, you pointed out that you clearly can't see a dragon in the garage, I wouldn't go "The dragon is invisible" I would just go "Well maybe the dragon is invisible? I'm not saying it is, but can you prove it isn't?"

Nobody here is, has, will, or can provide one simple thing.

A before the fact characteristic of God that would could test for show or not show whether God was more or less likely to exist.

I've got an encyclopedia's worth after the fact excuses as tp why "Okay but what if we apply criteria X?" doesn't count or "Not all Gods" or "Well that doesn't count because God is magic" or a billion other excuses.

I know that the beer in my fridge isn't a porter, ale, stout, or pilsner. I know the dragon in my garage isn't red, green, black, or grey.

Because the beer in my fridge, the dragon in my garage, and God in the sky all don't actually exist.
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Old Today, 01:33 PM   #1442
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's functionally the same because the core problem remains the same, any testable way to determine if X is true or not; either absolutely with definitive proof or even with just some evidence one way or the other is never going to be valid now, the only difference is whether you adjust the variables on the thing being test (i.e. "Oh... oh okay well... ah... my dragon's invisible! Yeah that's it invisible!") or adjust the variables on whatever is being test (as in "Can your precious science explain THIS without a God? What's that? Oh it can... oh... well I knew that... but can it explain THIS without a God?")

God of the Gaps and the Dragon in the Garage are the same thing, just from different angles, either adding stuff to the one side the equation to give a reason why this or that test "doesn't count" or adding stuff to the other side of the equation and claim we need to maybe keep God on the table as possible to explain this or that.

If anything the Dragon in the Garage metaphor is even more intellectually valid. If I really wanted to make a 1:1 comparison after I took you into the garage to show you my dragon, you pointed out that you clearly can't see a dragon in the garage, I wouldn't go "The dragon is invisible" I would just go "Well maybe the dragon is invisible? I'm not saying it is, but can you prove it isn't?"

Nobody here is, has, will, or can provide one simple thing.

A before the fact characteristic of God that would could test for show or not show whether God was more or less likely to exist.

I've got an encyclopedia's worth after the fact excuses as tp why "Okay but what if we apply criteria X?" doesn't count or "Not all Gods" or "Well that doesn't count because God is magic" or a billion other excuses.

I know that the beer in my fridge isn't a porter, ale, stout, or pilsner. I know the dragon in my garage isn't red, green, black, or grey.

Because the beer in my fridge, the dragon in my garage, and God in the sky all don't actually exist.
Have one on me. I just left a 6 pack on your front doorstep.
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Old Today, 02:01 PM   #1443
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Ok, how about, if the garage dragon is for the incrementally untestable god, how about “a dragon occupying the same space as my garage, but in an alternate dimension” for the proposed never detectable even in principle ‘outside the universe’ god (ie prime mover)

...I sure hope there is beer in my fridge because I’m going to need it...

Last edited by Lithrael; Today at 02:03 PM.
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Old Today, 02:34 PM   #1444
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Ok, how about, if the garage dragon is for the incrementally untestable god, how about “a dragon occupying the same space as my garage, but in an alternate dimension” for the proposed never detectable even in principle ‘outside the universe’ god (ie prime mover)

...I sure hope there is beer in my fridge because I’m going to need it...
Check your doorstep. I left a six pack there too. I'd have knocked, but you know...social distancing.
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Old Today, 02:37 PM   #1445
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Ok, how about, if the garage dragon is for the incrementally untestable god, how about “a dragon occupying the same space as my garage, but in an alternate dimension” for the proposed never detectable even in principle ‘outside the universe’ god (ie prime mover)
Split it however you want.

If it exists, it has to leave evidence. If its very definition says it will never leave evidence, it doesn't exist.

There is no Venn Diagram without overlap there.
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Old Today, 02:45 PM   #1446
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Huh? You quote from the Christian Bible but this hasn't got anything to do with Christians? Er - O......K...... Let's broaden it to Abrahamic God religions. Does that make a difference?
Did you miss the part where I said six of the eight quotes were from the OT and four of those were also in the Tanakh?

Of course you didn't, you just pretended I didn't say that - more dishonesty.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are seriously getting ridiculous! You are saying that anything you quote mine from the bible validates your point and any counter-quote is "like the schoolchild caught stealing cookies"???
Reading comprehension must not be taught in Western Australia - that wasn't what my reply meant - go back and read what you said, and then how I replied.

You said "I can find just as many quotes that show that nobody sees God"

Even if such quotes exist they, will not negate the ones I found that specifically and directly debunk your claim.

NOTE: You said you could find "just as many" quotes to show that nobody sees God. Ok find them then, and post them here. Put up or shut up!

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Get real! There is no way that the vast majority of "Abrahamic God" believers believe that they see God. Most believe that they won't see him until after they die.
First you said "None of the religions say that you can see God.."

To refute that, I quoted parts of the Abrahamic teachings that stated God is in fact seen and heard and touched, and is therefore detectable, so then you change that to "There is no way that the vast majority of "Abrahamic God" believers believe that they see God"

We have a name for this, its called "Moving the Goalposts"

Did you seriously believe I wouldn't catch you doing this... again!?
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Old Today, 03:01 PM   #1447
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
God is practicing not being seen.

http://www.montypython.net/scripts/hownot.php
Oh, the video is much funnier. Here, allow me....

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Old Today, 03:08 PM   #1448
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
As usual you are replacing the words I posted with a completely different set of words and drawing a false conclusion.

I have pointed out many times that the notion "dragons are silly THEREFORE gods are silly" is not a valid inference. However the choice of dragons invites that inference anyhow.
As usual you are replacing the words I posted with a completely different set of words and drawing a false conclusion.

No one is saying (that I'm aware of) "dragons are silly THEREFORE gods are silly" (except you).

I/"We" are saying "The CONCEPTS of DRAGONS AND GODS are INDEPENDENTLY and EQUALLY SILLY for SIMILAR REASONS".

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Dragons may be silly. Gods may be silly. But there is no causal link between the two forms of silliness.
Some causal links . . .
  • Both are mentioned in The Bible as being real.
  • Both have no evidence they are actually real.
  • Both would be undetectable/unobservable if they actually were real (aka - invisible).
  • Both are claimed to have fantasy magical powers/abilities.
  • Both are therefore equally and similarly silly.
Dragons aren't just presented as being cartoon characters in children's books and movies.
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Old Today, 03:14 PM   #1449
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post

First you said "None of the religions say that you can see God.."

To refute that, I quoted parts of the Abrahamic teachings that stated God is in fact seen and heard and touched, and is therefore detectable, so then you change that to "There is no way that the vast majority of "Abrahamic God" believers believe that they see God"

We have a name for this, its called "Moving the Goalposts"

Did you seriously believe I wouldn't catch you doing this... again!?
It just struck me, but the Trinity was and is standard Christian doctrine for most denominations. Jesus is God and God is Jesus. So does that mean no one ever saw Jesus?

I knew it. It's a fairy tale.
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Old Today, 04:42 PM   #1450
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It just struck me, but the Trinity was and is standard Christian doctrine for most denominations. Jesus is God and God is Jesus. So does that mean no one ever saw Jesus?

I knew it. It's a fairy tale.
Of course, there is bound to be an "ah but" such as

"as usual you are replacing the words I posted"
"who is making that argument?"
"more revisionism."
"you need to get over this paranoia."
"that is not the same as 'know (with a 100% certainty)'"
"that is just a pile of ad-hoc nonsense."

Take your pick!
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Old Today, 04:48 PM   #1451
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oh, the video is much funnier. Here, allow me....

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Thank you.
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Old Today, 04:53 PM   #1452
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
They believe that God is there but they can't see him. Totally consistent with the "claim I originally made".

You claimed:

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ftfy.

None of the religions say that you can see God...
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Old Today, 05:41 PM   #1453
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Leave it to Psion not to make a consistent argument. A discussion with him is like wrestling jello.
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Old Today, 05:55 PM   #1454
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Is it time for us to stop the thread and go around the room to be reminded that "But atheists are the rude ones..." again?

What's it gonna be? Flounce, fringe reset, or attempted distraction?
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Old Today, 07:39 PM   #1455
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I think we need to go back to something Darat may or may not have said in another thread.
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