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Old 2nd December 2012, 12:49 PM   #1
zooterkin
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Should non-scientists speak against science at skeptic conferences? (RW again)

Our favourite banned member is at it again.

Rebecca Watson gave a talk trashing Evolutionary Psychology, entitled How Girls Evolved to shop (and other ways to insult women with "science"), at Skepticon. It has been taken apart as being science denialism.


Quote:
Watson seems to have only the most superficial understanding of evolutionary psychology and it isn’t clear that she’s read even one paper in the field. There are many reasons to think this. She cited no sources during her 48-minute talk beyond what is mentioned in newspapers and other media or publicly available abstracts. While she derided media distortion in one part of the talk, she implicitly trusted media reports for the bulk of it, and rather uncritically. It is true that Watson is not an academic and therefore has no ready access to scientific papers (the public generally has to pay publishers to view them, but I have made many papers discussed here available, see part VI). Watson made numerous mistakes in content, misrepresented very basic aspects of researchers work, got citations wrong, and demonstrated ignorance of contrary data. Some of these errors are listed in part IV and discussed in part II. Lastly, we know that Watson is not versed in the literature because she admits this herself. At the end of her talk, an audience member asks Watson if there is any “good evolutionary psychology”. Watson throws up her hands while saying “prooobably? I’m guessing yes, but it’s so boring.. because you can only make it interesting if you make up everything. [...] if there is good evolutionary psychology, it’s not in the media[...]”
Should skeptic conferences vet what people speak about, to avoid skepticism getting a bad name?
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Old 2nd December 2012, 12:59 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
...
Should skeptic conferences vet what people speak about, to avoid skepticism getting a bad name?
Perhaps it would be better to take into account past performance. After this effort, I wouldn't attend a meeting to listen to her.
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Old 2nd December 2012, 12:59 PM   #3
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I don't think you can vet what people speak about, so much, as that would involve seeing the speech beforehand, etc. But you can certainly stop inviting back people who consistently talk bollocks.
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Old 2nd December 2012, 12:59 PM   #4
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Interesting.

At the very least, conference organizers should make sure that the presenters are experts on the topic they are going to speak on.

But then the question is what could Rebecca Watson talk about?
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Old 2nd December 2012, 01:00 PM   #5
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Old 2nd December 2012, 01:35 PM   #6
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That's actually a very good critical analysis of Watson's talk.

As a side note, I highly recommend Peggy Orenstein's, "Cinderella Ate My Daughter", for an incredibly insightful look at the history and current practices of marketing to little girls. Pink and princesses are indeed media and marketing influenced feminine desires.

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Old 2nd December 2012, 01:43 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's actually a very good critical analysis of Watson's talk.

As a side note, I highly recommend Peggy Orenstein's, "Cinderella Ate My Daughter", for an incredibly insightful look at the history and current practices of marketing to little girls. Pink and princesses are indeed media and marketing influenced feminine desires.
Yes, I should probably have made the point that the blog post is a very good example of what critical thinking should be.
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Old 2nd December 2012, 02:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
Should skeptic conferences vet what people speak about, to avoid skepticism getting a bad name?
As I stated when I started the thread about Rebecca Watson's article, I have never met her, have never attended a TAM, and have no dog in whatever dispute occurred.

Randi and I became friends during the 1990 CSICOP conference, in which one person was allowed to challenge the panel on whether smoking cigarettes is bad for your health. Another member pointed out that the panel was composed entirely of men. I watched a series of people discuss the ethics of performing scientific experiments on animals. Things sometimes got a bit chaotic, but I enjoyed the fact that people were able to engage in free inquiry in large groups over several days without any (evident) uncivilized behavior. I hoped that's what JREF and allied groups would turn into years later when I was with Randi in Ft. Lauderdale when the former headquarters opened.

If the matter of free inquiry has turned into a debate over whether reputation is more important than truth, then the entire matter of skepticism has taken a sad turn.
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Old 2nd December 2012, 02:32 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
As I stated when I started the thread about Rebecca Watson's article, I have never met her, have never attended a TAM, and have no dog in whatever dispute occurred.

Randi and I became friends during the 1990 CSICOP conference, in which one person was allowed to challenge the panel on whether smoking cigarettes is bad for your health. Another member pointed out that the panel was composed entirely of men. I watched a series of people discuss the ethics of performing scientific experiments on animals. Things sometimes got a bit chaotic, but I enjoyed the fact that people were able to engage in free inquiry in large groups over several days without any (evident) uncivilized behavior. I hoped that's what JREF and allied groups would turn into years later when I was with Randi in Ft. Lauderdale when the former headquarters opened.

If the matter of free inquiry has turned into a debate over whether reputation is more important than truth, then the entire matter of skepticism has taken a sad turn.
You don't have to be a scientist, have a degree, or have special expertise to be a critical thinker or even to give a talk on a subject. Some of us are amateurs (as opposed to paid professionals) in topics outside of our usual expertise. That doesn't mean we don't have anything to contribute in a discussion or as a speaker.

I think the title of the thread and even the OP could have taken a different tack. "Science denialism at a skeptic conference", the title of Clint's blog piece, is much more to my liking.
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Old 2nd December 2012, 02:38 PM   #10
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she keeps babbling all this nonsense ,and she's going to limit her speaking engagements to bra burnings and white sales
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Old 2nd December 2012, 02:41 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Ian View Post
As I stated when I started the thread about Rebecca Watson's article, I have never met her, have never attended a TAM, and have no dog in whatever dispute occurred.

Randi and I became friends during the 1990 CSICOP conference, in which one person was allowed to challenge the panel on whether smoking cigarettes is bad for your health. Another member pointed out that the panel was composed entirely of men. I watched a series of people discuss the ethics of performing scientific experiments on animals. Things sometimes got a bit chaotic, but I enjoyed the fact that people were able to engage in free inquiry in large groups over several days without any (evident) uncivilized behavior. I hoped that's what JREF and allied groups would turn into years later when I was with Randi in Ft. Lauderdale when the former headquarters opened.

If the matter of free inquiry has turned into a debate over whether reputation is more important than truth, then the entire matter of skepticism has taken a sad turn.
When a group becomes complacent with itself, it takes little for someone to change the agenda of that group. If the members wake up to what is happening, it is a difficult and divisive time. That appears to be what is happening now. When this has died down, as it will, skepticism will be all the stronger for the next crisis. Challenging the 'old' guard is productive, if uncomfortable, for all but to be successful you have to be very adept. From the Skepticon presentation, Watson isn't good enough.
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Old 2nd December 2012, 03:10 PM   #12
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So much merriment from the blogosphere/twitterverse.

The Slymepit, Not Hating You - Just Laughing At You: Periodic Table of Swearing It's a long running thread and the relevant discussion starts on the third post down. All sorts of snark follows.


Someone tweeting the link to be sure RW sees it.
Quote:
Joey H. ‏@ExileDispatches
TL;DR version: You can’t just make **** up. MT @eclint My critique of Rebecca Watson's talk on Evol Psych as denialism http://skepticink.com/incredulous/20...ic-conference/
Retweeted by Watson-Rodrigues


Wonderist on The Rational Response Squad recopied the article. I await interesting comments that will surely follow. So far there are only a couple.


There are lots of Watson defender comments here in a review of the critique by Justin Griffith on Freethought Blogs. I'm guessing we'll eventually see some of this regurgitated by Watson:
Quote:
Miriam, Professional Fun-Ruiner says:
I believe Rebecca’s point in bringing up stereotype threat was to show that constantly repeating stereotypes about women via evopsych studies and their accompanying write-ups in the media actually has negative effects. Some people dismiss the studies Rebecca criticized as clearly idiotic (women love to shop because they were gatherers? Really?), but she’s saying that women really are negatively affected by living in a world so saturated with stereotypes about them.

Obviously, that point is arguable; I’m just pointing out that I think that’s why she included that bit.

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Justin Griffith says:
December 2, 2012 at 10:41 am
Oh I totally agree that’s why she likely added it in there. But Clint’s take is that nobody in the evopsych field stands by the things that Rebecca Watson claims they do.

Ed’s example of a person arguing against the entire field of biology by cherry-picking Michael Behe / Collins is extremely apt.

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Old 2nd December 2012, 03:37 PM   #13
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From what i have read and seen RW is that type of person that loves truth and facts, unless that is , of course, said truth says anything bad about females. This type of person is not just within feminist, or even skeptic circles, and to be quite frank it is a type of person that really , on a personal level gets on my nerves.

They tend to treat knowledge as a weapon , not a tool, in RW's case, i find it even more obnoxious, because she is trying to make herself the face of female skepticism. You can't on one hand try and be a postergirl for being rational, and on the other do everything you can to try and silence any fact you dislike.

If i were to give RW a piece of advice, it would be "Don't look behind curtains, you arn't going to like what you find. ", if she can't deal with the fact that sometimes the facts are against you ( whoever you may be in any given case.) she should maybe think about simply keeping her brand of feminism as her claim to fame. Trying to be a name brand skeptic is not going to work out if she simply throws critical thinking out the window any time there is a fact she does not want to hear. And in fact is going to be doing female skeptics a huge disservice by doing so.
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Old 2nd December 2012, 04:11 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I don't think you can vet what people speak about, so much, as that would involve seeing the speech beforehand, etc. But you can certainly stop inviting back people who consistently talk bollocks.
I agree. I'm not a Watson fan, but if you'd asked me a week ago whether a talk by her was going to be a load of unscientific bollocks I'd have said "I'd be surprised if it was".

It is not that I've ever seen evidence she's a deep thinker who is good at original research, but rather that she's mostly confined herself in the past to repeating skeptical views which are trivially true (homeopathy is rubbish etc.) or feminist views which are highly palatable to her target audience. So if I invited her to give a talk I'd expect something intellectually lightweight but delivered competently and reasonably engagingly.

After this however I suspect people will be more cautious about vetting her topics before they let her on stage.
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Old 2nd December 2012, 04:11 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
From what i have read and seen RW is that type of person that loves truth and facts, unless that is , of course, said truth says anything bad about females. This type of person is not just within feminist, or even skeptic circles, and to be quite frank it is a type of person that really , on a personal level gets on my nerves.

They tend to treat knowledge as a weapon , not a tool, in RW's case, i find it even more obnoxious, because she is trying to make herself the face of female skepticism. You can't on one hand try and be a postergirl for being rational, and on the other do everything you can to try and silence any fact you dislike.

If i were to give RW a piece of advice, it would be "Don't look behind curtains, you arn't going to like what you find. ", if she can't deal with the fact that sometimes the facts are against you ( whoever you may be in any given case.) she should maybe think about simply keeping her brand of feminism as her claim to fame. Trying to be a name brand skeptic is not going to work out if she simply throws critical thinking out the window any time there is a fact she does not want to hear. And in fact is going to be doing female skeptics a huge disservice by doing so.
Yup. It is difficult to assess reality without an personal agenda but if you wish to be true to yourself you have to let facts speak for themselves. Boys and girls are different. Whether you like it or not.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 01:43 AM   #16
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So, in my desire to be fair, I started to watch the actual video. This is the first time I've seen Watson speak, other than the "guys, don't do that" video. And I have to say that I can see why she gets the gigs she does. She's definitely funny and engaging. The problem is that she's also lightweight, vacuous, and talks from a position of "you're all going to agree with me because I'm right" rather than one of "here is what I think and this is the evidence that has led me to this conclusion". For that reason I didn't make it very far into the video despite the fact that, as I said at the start, I think her style is funny and engaging.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 01:57 AM   #17
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Two responses on FtB so far. One agreeing with Ed Clint (but trying very hard not to upset anyone), and one circling the wagons and saying he got it mostly wrong, which also has the following response :
Originally Posted by rebeccawatson
Thanks Stephanie. I saw Clint’s post but as I’m traveling, I have no time to write anything up, so I’m very glad that you’ve done a great job of it. I’m actually giving this talk again tomorrow and I’m quite thankful to people who have given me notes and corrections. I even got a few good ones from Clint! He’s absolutely right that I misspoke in regards to Kruger’s affiliation (it’s U of Michigan, not Chicago, that should be embarrassed) and in regards to the favorite color study being given to Chinese people in the UK, not in China. Also, the “Why People Have Sex” study was not all white middle class women – it was only about ~60% white (and ~20% Asian.) I think I’ll note instead that the study involved 96% 18-22 year olds, all of whom were psychology students at University of Texas Austin, and among the women 27% of whom had never had sexual intercourse. More accurate and also more ridiculous.

There are other bits and pieces Clint got wrong but at a glance I think you’ve covered the bulk of the problems here.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 02:10 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
So, in my desire to be fair, I started to watch the actual video. This is the first time I've seen Watson speak, other than the "guys, don't do that" video. And I have to say that I can see why she gets the gigs she does. She's definitely funny and engaging. The problem is that she's also lightweight, vacuous, and talks from a position of "you're all going to agree with me because I'm right" rather than one of "here is what I think and this is the evidence that has led me to this conclusion". For that reason I didn't make it very far into the video despite the fact that, as I said at the start, I think her style is funny and engaging.
Yes, unfortunately to be sure of what angle she put on it, you do have to watch it, so I'm doing that now. She starts off fine, focusing on Evolutionary Psychology (and other sciences) as presented by the media; if that's the angle she'd stuck with, she'd have been fine, though hardly original. But then, round about 9 minutes in, she is very specific that she is attacking the whole of Evolutionary Psychology.

ETA: 8'45" in, rather than 9 minutes.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 05:01 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Should skeptic conferences vet what people speak about, to avoid skepticism getting a bad name?
Should that event even be called a skeptic conference?

To explain the goals of the event organizer JT Eberhard wrote: “Skeptics conferences are an important part of the movement. They not only grant people access to the icons of the movement, they also arm those in attendance with information; the key weapon for the side of reason. They also provide a sense of community for a group of people who can often feel isolated in a largely religious population.”

I'm sick and tired of the self-styled "icons of the movement".

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Old 3rd December 2012, 05:09 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Our favourite banned member is at it again.

Rebecca Watson gave a talk trashing Evolutionary Psychology, entitled How Girls Evolved to shop (and other ways to insult women with "science"), at Skepticon. It has been taken apart as being science denialism.

Should skeptic conferences vet what people speak about, to avoid skepticism getting a bad name?
Ms. Watson seems remarkably unpopular here. I personally have no knowledge of why. The idea that she is some kind of non-scientist or non-expert that could or should have been avoided with a more rigorous attitude about things appears to be wrong,

http://skepticink.com/incredulous/20...ic-conference/
Quote:
About me
I am an anthropology graduate student at UCLA, a part of its bioanthropology section which conducts research in evolutionary psychology and other areas. I do not speak as an authoritative expert on evolutionary psychology, but I do possess significant experience. I have been closely following developments in the field for about a dozen years. I focused on evolutionary psychology during my undergraduate education at the University of Illinois, and my senior thesis research project, an hypothesis test of an adaptationist hypothesis, will be published in December’s issue of Quarterly Review of Biology. I am presently engaged in three research projects in the field of evolutionary psychology.
If this is true, what grounds would there have been?

I have not listened to any of her podcasts or read the paper this thread is linked to. Honestly, I believe evolutionary psychology is just recycled sociobiology, and produces vague trash that passes for knowledge. So for me, an evolutionary psychology of shopping is no different than an evolutionary psychology of aggression or child abuse. It's just a different side of the same counterfeit knowledge. But I do realize it's the latest craze to make evolution palatable to psychology, and almost a heresy to say anything except this.

So that being the case, what grounds would there have been to exclude Ms. Watson from such a conference? That she is disliked on the JREF?
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Old 3rd December 2012, 05:12 AM   #21
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You would need to produce a working definition of scientist first.

The whole concept of "scientist" doesn't work too well in the real world. Sure there are the academics who do original research, go to conferences and publish papers. Straightforward. Then there are the people in the pharmaceutical industry who do much the same but publish much less. But beyond that industry gets messy. There are a lot of people who might do a bit of science but on a day to day basis rely on tried and tested techniques. It also a bit questionable if its valid to try and group the marine biologists in with the solid state chemists.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 05:17 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Scott Sommers View Post
Ms. Watson seems remarkably unpopular here. I personally have no knowledge of why. The idea that she is some kind of non-scientist or non-expert that could or should have been avoided with a more rigorous attitude about things appears to be wrong,

http://skepticink.com/incredulous/20...ic-conference/


If this is true, what grounds would there have been?
You do realise that what you quoted was from Ed Clint, not Rebecca Watson? RW has a BS in Communications.

Quote:
I have not listened to any of her podcasts or read the paper this thread is linked to. Honestly, I believe evolutionary psychology is just recycled sociobiology, and produces vague trash that passes for knowledge. So for me, an evolutionary psychology of shopping is no different than an evolutionary psychology of aggression or child abuse. It's just a different side of the same counterfeit knowledge.
Well, sounds like you agree with Rebecca. Do you disagree with what Ed Clint wrote about Evolutionary Psychology? What do you base your belief on?

Quote:
But I do realize it's the latest craze to make evolution palatable to psychology, and almost a heresy to say anything except this. So that being the case, what grounds would there have been to exclude Ms. Watson from such a conference? That she is disliked on the JREF?
I wouldn't say she is particularly disliked on the JREF. Quite a few people here know her socially (myself included, though only barely).
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Old 3rd December 2012, 06:03 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Scott Sommers View Post
So that being the case, what grounds would there have been to exclude Ms. Watson from such a conference? That she is disliked on the JREF?
1) As mentioned above, the credentials you quote aren't Rebecca's, they are Ed Clint's.

2) I knew Rebecca as a member of this forum, and I also met her at TAM. I don't hate her, but neither do I particularly like her. However, that's more of a personality thing.

3) I don't think that Rebecca should be "excluded" from a conference, if she's speaking on a topic about which she is knowledgeable; but by the same token, she shouldn't be invited to speak on topics about which she is not knowledgeable, just because she's a skeptic 'celebrity'.

4) Having touted herself repeatedly as a skeptic, she should be aware that she's going to be held to the same standards as those she criticizes; and from what I can see, this particular talk failed to meet those standards by a wide margin. While I can appreciate her efforts to promote feminism or gender equality, her methods -- particularly of late -- seem to be guided by emotion and political correctness than by solid fact and research.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 06:33 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You do realise that what you quoted was from Ed Clint, not Rebecca Watson? RW has a BS in Communications.
Well aren't I a silly. It would seem then that she does not have any of the background that I was saying she has.


Quote:
Well, sounds like you agree with Rebecca. Do you disagree with what Ed Clint wrote about Evolutionary Psychology? What do you base your belief on?
I don't know if I do. I didn't listen to her post about this. Nor do I think this an appropriate place to talk about evolutionary psychology. Is there another thread about this? Or do you sincerely want to hear my opinion? We can make a thread somewhere to deal with this.

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I wouldn't say she is particularly disliked on the JREF. Quite a few people here know her socially (myself included, though only barely).
Here I was thinking about the other thread where there is some sort of roast of her article in Slate. I didn't read the whole thread, but the hostility toward her is quite obvious from some of the posts in the thread.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 07:28 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post

3) I don't think that Rebecca should be "excluded" from a conference, if she's speaking on a topic about which she is knowledgeable; but by the same token, she shouldn't be invited to speak on topics about which she is not knowledgeable, just because she's a skeptic 'celebrity'.
In this case, from her opening remarks, it seems that no-one knew what she was going to be speaking about until she opened her mouth. It would therefore appear that she was booked precisely because of who she is, rather than what she had to say.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 07:44 AM   #26
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with non-scientists speaking against science* at skeptic cons.

The social sciences tend to be much more accessible and capable of being critiqued by non-experts than, say, quantum physics. I say this as a former cognitive psychology grad student/research assistant who decided to switch fields to statistics. I am particularly skeptical of any social science "findings" that are written about in the media, as many of these studies are complete garbage. I don't know if people are aware of the sheer number of publications in social science journals, but in academia many professors (and graduate students too) are constantly under pressure to get studies published and peer review is far from perfect. Needless to say, this results in a ton of crap studies, which tend to be further distorted if they're picked up by the media. You don't necessarily have to be a scientist to see through a bad study. In some cases you do need science training to see the flaws, but not all cases.

So if criticism of science is intelligent and not dishonest, there's nothing wrong with it at all. I haven't watched most of Watson's talk yet (just about 15 minutes) so I can't comment on whether I think her critique is smart/stupid or honest/dishonest, but I will watch the rest later and see what the article against her has to say.

*By "against science" I assume we mean "against certain scientific theories/studies" and not "against science itself".
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Old 3rd December 2012, 07:54 AM   #27
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I've watched a bit more of the video now. I've partially been avoiding it because I hate all these intra-sceptic squabbles that happen, and this looks like it's warming up to be a humdinger. That said, though, you can't have an opinion if you don't know what you're talking about. I don't want to be the guy saying "ban this filth" about a film I've not seen.

I watched because of the rebuttal linked, in which Watson leaves a comment saying that the rebuttal is accurate. That claims that she was only talking about evolutionary psychology in the media, and "pop" evolutionary psychology (whatever that means). However, while she does mention "pop" evolutionary psychology and does talk about its portrayal in the media, she does also unequivocally make incorrect statements about evolutionary psychology as a whole.

I also have to retract what I said earlier about her presentation style. I still think that she's quite funny, but she's not as engaging as I thought she was from watching just the start of the video. She stumbles quite a lot and gives the impression that she doesn't really know what she's talking about. Which, if Clint's article is to be believed (and it's very well cited, as are his posts in the comments thread), is because she doesn't.

Coming to this as someone with no prior opinion of Watson's ability as a speaker either way, I can't say that I'm impressed.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 08:29 AM   #28
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Quote:
At the end of her talk, an audience member asks Watson if there is any “good evolutionary psychology”. Watson throws up her hands while saying “prooobably? I’m guessing yes, but it’s so boring.. because you can only make it interesting if you make up everything. [...] if there is good evolutionary psychology, it’s not in the media[...]
This is so incredible. Well yes, Becky, science isn't all fun and lipstick but actually hard work and tons of research and ****. Still, there are people willing to do that work. It would be totally awesome to have these experts speak on rational conventions instead of wannabe-celebrities who are not just clueless but also smug about it.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:29 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post

I watched because of the rebuttal linked, in which Watson leaves a comment saying that the rebuttal is accurate. That claims that she was only talking about evolutionary psychology in the media, and "pop" evolutionary psychology (whatever that means). However, while she does mention "pop" evolutionary psychology and does talk about its portrayal in the media, she does also unequivocally make incorrect statements about evolutionary psychology as a whole.
As one of the commentators points out here, in detail, she does indeed very clearly state that she is commenting on the whole of evolutionary psychology.

(A short excerpt of a longer, more detailed comment.)
Originally Posted by furiouslysleepy
Originally Posted by rebeccawatson
The biggest problems with the study though, are the same problems that are leveled against evolutionary psychology as a whole. I’ll go over a few of those points: while the brain is a product of evolution, the brain is also highly adaptable. Evolutionary psychology requires that our brains evolved twelve thousand to one million years ago and haven’t changed since, which doesn’t actually fit in with what we understand about evolution: we haven’t ‘finished evolving’. And in the last twelve thousand years we’ve seen interesting changes in human genes, like evolving the ability to drink other animals’ milk. … but according to the evolutionary psychologists, the brain stopped evolving. Another problem is that evolutionary psychology’s theories tend to be unfalsifiable. They’ll say ‘these behaviors are written into our genes’, but they never actually tell us which genes. There’s no evidence to support it.
She’s quite clear here about criticizing evolutionary psychology as a whole, and Ed Clint specifically addresses each objection in the quote above. I’m making no judgments here about the strengths of Watson’s or Clint’s arguments, merely pointing out that Clint has correctly identified that Watson is criticizing the whole field and has responded on point.
You would hope that someone with a BS in Communications would be able to actually say what they mean, and not rely on people having to guess what they really meant to say.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:31 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post

You would hope that someone with a BS in Communications would be able to actually say what they mean, and not rely on people having to guess what they really meant to say.
I think the answer was in your statement there!
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Old 3rd December 2012, 12:06 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
I will watch the rest later and see what the article against her has to say.
Okay, after finishing I am going to say:

-RW does seem to make some false and misleading claims

-RW seems to unfairly generalize a small sample of studies to Evolutionary Psychology/Psychologists as a whole

-RW makes many good points regarding the flaws of the specific studies she chose to talk about

-EC is over the top and hyperbolic with his use of terms such as "science denialism". What scientific findings does he think RW is denying, specifically? "Conspiracy theories" struck me as hyperbolic too, although it may be a bit more defensible.

-RW not being a scientist is irrelevant. A scientist in a related field to evolutionary psychology might have a better chance of knowing a lot about the subject than someone who is not a professional scientist, but it is not guaranteed. There is no reason a lay person (especially one used to doing research which I assume would be the case for a skeptic blogger) cannot do the proper research for a talk like this.

-I didn't hate RW's talk (surprising considering I am very much not a fan of hers), but it definitely had some glaring, annoying flaws that I mainly chalk down to laziness and lack of proper research on the subject.

-I'm not a fan of Evolutionary Psychology. Admittedly I'm not widely read in the field at all, but based on it's defining characteristics I don't see it as particularly valuable or interesting. Human psychology is what it is and we can study what it is in the present. Speculating about why our psychology is the way it is based on adaptive principles doesn't add much of value IMO.

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Old 3rd December 2012, 03:21 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
... I think her style is funny and engaging.
Snarky sarcasm and, "I'm better than everyone else", is how I read her style, in this talk, anyway.

When I heard her give a Sunday papers session at TAM 5 I thought she was more reasonable. I didn't get as much from it as others might have, it was a talk about starting a blog and/or the Skepchick brand to promote skepticism. My interest is in framing, and branding is a part of that, but I think educating the communicators gets us farther than simply increasing their numbers.

I think I had a better message in my Sunday paper but she was definitely a better speaker. I was intimidated by the size of the audience and had more to say than I could fit into 15 minutes so I went over. She was a good speaker as far as speaking to a large auditorium goes.

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Old 3rd December 2012, 04:41 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Two responses on FtB so far. One agreeing with Ed Clint (but trying very hard not to upset anyone), and one circling the wagons and saying he got it mostly wrong, which also has the following response :
No time to respond while traveling? More likely an excuse than not.

The one agreeing with Ed Clint, I cited first.

Having read the "Ed doesn't get it" ftb entry, I shall have to listen to Watson's talk with that in mind before I comment.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:45 PM   #34
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I watched her talk live on the skepticon stream.
In the live comments chat, there were a few of us raising eyebrows at the well-poisoning going on.
I made a couple of comments after on blog posts that reported on her talk.
What disappointed me the most was why skeptical people wernt challenging it before Eds recent rebuttal piece.
You didnt have to be qualified in EP to see what she was doing
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Old 4th December 2012, 02:05 AM   #35
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Any bets on whether the SGU will circle the wagons again? Last time was embarrassing to the point where I was squirming for them
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Old 4th December 2012, 02:32 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by nudger1964 View Post
I watched her talk live on the skepticon stream.
In the live comments chat, there were a few of us raising eyebrows at the well-poisoning going on.
I made a couple of comments after on blog posts that reported on her talk.
What disappointed me the most was why skeptical people wernt challenging it before Eds recent rebuttal piece.
You didnt have to be qualified in EP to see what she was doing
Most people are hesitant to speak on subjects that they have little knowledge of. They are not aware that little to no knowledge is just the right qualification nowadays to speak on a rational conference... I also don't blame people who are hesitant to speak up against someone who has a history of publically shaming anyone in disagreeance.

Btw, just after PZ Myers joined into bashing that awful discipline of evolutionary psychology, a field that has not and will not ever contribute much of substance, substantiating his claims by bitching against Edward Clint like a little girl and saying that it was all a "vendetta" against RW, they realized they messed up. Now they row back, flat out denying that RW ever attacked EP as a whole. Though the video is out there for anyone to see.

The sad thing is that they get invited to rational conventions, and that they will probably get even more invitations now. Because commonly the success of rational conventions isn't measured by the quality of the presentations but by the number of attendees. And the cultists don't just attract their followers but also many people curious to see the next train-wreck of a presentation.
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Old 4th December 2012, 04:31 AM   #37
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rebeccas take on evolutionary psychology. i know nothing on the subject but it seems like a poor high school exam talk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9SvQ29-gk8

anyone in the know?

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Old 4th December 2012, 04:40 AM   #38
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Seriously, there is nothing wrong with attacking EP. The only problem is attacking it using false and misleading statements. I don't think it was the best idea for RW if she didn't actually know much about it. If she was mainly interested in studies picked up on by the media then she should have simply restricted herself to that as a point of topic. The talk could have focused on a message like "Beware of bad evolutionary psychology in the media that promotes sexist stereotypes" and avoided the generalizations and false criticisms of EP as a whole while retaining most of its content. I really think it was almost a decent talk, but that RW was just a bit too careless, sloppy and lazy with several of her claims.
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Old 4th December 2012, 04:42 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by s_pepys View Post
rebeccas take on evolutionary psychology. i know nothing on the subject but it seems like a poor high school exam talk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9SvQ29-gk8

anyone in the know?

lxxx
Already mentioned in this thread, and there's a separate thread about it, too.
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Old 4th December 2012, 04:54 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Already mentioned in this thread, and there's a separate thread about it, too.
oh. missed all that. thanks.

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