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Old 24th October 2012, 10:59 AM   #1
Ian
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Rebecca Watson's article in Slate

http://www.slate.com/articles/double...e_threats.html

I have never met Rebecca Watson, nor have I ever attended a TAM. However, friends and fans of Randi may want to read this. I do not have a dog in whatever disagreement occurred.
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Old 24th October 2012, 11:28 AM   #2
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I was going to write about this in some of the older threads when this new thread opened. (In fact, I was doing a keyword search to find those threads that mentioned "muslima.")

Leaving aside the question of whether the elevator incident warranted criticism, the conduct of others that followed is stunningly rude. To think that some of these ... people ... describe themselves as "skeptics" actually makes me feel as though my family--which strives for the highest and best qualities of civilization--has been infiltrated by a bunch of low-brow barbarians.

This conduct is not merely "sexism," nor is it merely "bullying." It ventures into the realm of "being a grade-A-*******." And the things that some have done to provoke intimidation and intense fear and a change in the behavior of the targeted individual ... well, I think there's a name for THAT sort of uncivilized conduct as well.
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Old 24th October 2012, 11:49 AM   #3
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I'm sorry, there are still people who listen to or believe anything Rebecca Watson has to say?

She's a self-absorbed attention-grabbing radfem drama llama bully who hasn't said anything remotely skeptical in more than a year. Elevatorgate blew up when she decided to start labelling anyone who disagreed with her on anything as "misogynists" and "parrots," dictating that her word was law for all women, everywhere.

The idea of applying skepticism, or even just open discussion, to any one of her feminist claims sends her into a flaming tirade. Her and her ever-shrinking clique have started their own movement, and unless you uncritically accept everything they say, you're not welcome as a member. And if you're not a member, then you should be shunned from the community.
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:03 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
I'm sorry, there are still people who listen to or believe anything Rebecca Watson has to say?
More than who listen to you.
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:05 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Madalch View Post
More than who listen to you.
Among atheists, I'm sure that's true.
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:14 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
I'm sorry, there are still people who listen to or believe anything Rebecca Watson has to say?
I liked Rebecca when I met her, but I have been unimpressed with her work as skeptic and as a spokesperson for skeptical issues. That doesn't mean I dislike her; it just means that I have not been impressed with her talent as a spokesperson. But that is rather beside the point.

I have no trouble taking more-or-less at face value the incidents that she describes, since they are similar to incidents I have seen myself. Further, I have also seen with my own eyes that people who would think twice before picking on me (because I am a man) mysteriously feel at liberty to pick on women. Where this sense of liberty comes from is an utter mystery to me.

Skeptics need to have the highest ethical standards, and cruel or immature harrassment is unethical and ought to be unacceptable, regardless of the personal merits of the victim.
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:20 PM   #7
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Agreed. The whole point of JREF should be a continuation of The Enlightenment, i.e., the concerted effort to acknowledge and expunge patterns of thinking that are ignorant, irrational, demeaning, etc.

Regardless of one's take on the "elevator incident," it's clear that misogyny is a problem among some people in the skeptical community. Those people need a figurative dope-slap to help them realize the harm they're doing not just to women alienated by their behavior, but to the entire skeptical movement when it is robbed of the insights of brilliant women who choose not to participate in that movement because of their fears (whether real or merely perceived) of being harassed.
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:22 PM   #8
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I stopped listening to SGU because I can't stand her.
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:24 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Brown View Post
I have no trouble taking more-or-less at face value the incidents that she describes, since they are similar to incidents I have seen myself.
Again, Elevatorgate blew up after Watson became a bully. After she doubled down, then doubled down again on her initial description until it was a matter of harrassment and potential rape instead of the minor annoyance she first described. After she called out anyone who disagreed with the severity of the incident as "ignorant" and "parroting misogynist thought." After she started attacking anyone who disagreed with her as gender traitors.

Quote:
Skeptics need to have the highest ethical standards, and cruel or immature harrassment is unethical and ought to be unacceptable, regardless of the personal merits of the victim.
That's entirely true. However, all prominent members of the community receive nasty threats of violence. It's primarily only Watson and her ilk that decide those threats are proof that "the other side" of whatever position she's taken today is full of nothing but ignorant misogynists whose arguments can be dismissed out-of-hand.
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:27 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
I'm sorry, there are still people who listen to or believe anything Rebecca Watson has to say?
I consider her to be vastly more worthy of listening to than you.
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:29 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Brown View Post
I liked Rebecca when I met her, but I have been unimpressed with her work as skeptic and as a spokesperson for skeptical issues. That doesn't mean I dislike her; it just means that I have not been impressed with her talent as a spokesperson. But that is rather beside the point.

I have no trouble taking more-or-less at face value the incidents that she describes, since they are similar to incidents I have seen myself. Further, I have also seen with my own eyes that people who would think twice before picking on me (because I am a man) mysteriously feel at liberty to pick on women. Where this sense of liberty comes from is an utter mystery to me.

Skeptics need to have the highest ethical standards, and cruel or immature harrassment is unethical and ought to be unacceptable, regardless of the personal merits of the victim.
Exactly. This sort of behavior sends the message that the community of skeptics is an abusive cult. If you don't like what RW has to say, the best thing to do is ignore her.
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:35 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
That's entirely true. However, all prominent members of the community receive nasty threats of violence. It's primarily only Watson and her ilk that decide those threats are proof that "the other side" of whatever position she's taken today is full of nothing but ignorant misogynists whose arguments can be dismissed out-of-hand.
Really? From people who are supposedly part of the skeptical community?

I know people like Dawkins and PZ Myers often get threats of death, dismemberment and damnation from religious folk, but how many times have they been threatened with death or rape from their fellow atheists?
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:44 PM   #13
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Quote:
The response from male atheists was overwhelming. This is one example:
“honestly, and i mean HONESTLY.. you deserve to be raped and tortured and killed. swear id laugh if i could”
First, let me say that anyone who would say anything like the above example is a despicable piece of crap. Considerably less alarming to me, but alarming still, is Watson's preceding sentence. Perhaps it was not her intent to do so, but she seems to be implying that this sort of behavior is common among male atheists. How many male atheists read or heard her comments and either supported her or politely disagreed with her to varying degrees? Why would she be possessed of the frankly naďve assumption that her group is somehow ethically superior to others? That sounds like the sort of in-group chauvinism that a scientifically minded person should be wary of. Why would she be surprised that the more people who get involved in this, the more likely it is that some of them will act like a--holes?
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:52 PM   #14
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So where's the evidence the 'rape' threats were from scientists? From atheists? From skeptics? More/worse than the usual crap most of the more frequently read bloggers get?

Here's the lesson: get in a public row with someone famous and your 15 minutes of fame gets an extended time block. It doesn't need to be a real issue, straw appears to do nicely.
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:55 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
I'm sorry, there are still people who listen to or believe anything Rebecca Watson has to say?

She's a self-absorbed attention-grabbing radfem drama llama bully who hasn't said anything remotely skeptical in more than a year. Elevatorgate blew up when she decided to start labelling anyone who disagreed with her on anything as "misogynists" and "parrots," dictating that her word was law for all women, everywhere.

The idea of applying skepticism, or even just open discussion, to any one of her feminist claims sends her into a flaming tirade. Her and her ever-shrinking clique have started their own movement, and unless you uncritically accept everything they say, you're not welcome as a member. And if you're not a member, then you should be shunned from the community.
You know what other organizations are like that? Churches.
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:56 PM   #16
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Who?
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Old 24th October 2012, 12:58 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
You know what other organizations are like that? Churches.
Not mine.

Trust me, if my church required the level of draconian groupthink as Skephick or FTB, I wouldn't have lasted a month.
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Old 24th October 2012, 01:01 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Madalch View Post
Really? From people who are supposedly part of the skeptical community?

I know people like Dawkins and PZ Myers often get threats of death, dismemberment and damnation from religious folk, but how many times have they been threatened with death or rape from their fellow atheists?
If you get enough people in a group, you'll likely start to get a representation of a typical population when it comes to personalities and behavior.

Some Catholic priests and Boy Scoutmasters rape young boys. Some of the least critical thinkers believe they are skeptics. Some self identified atheists believe in the paranormal. Some otherwise critically thinking skeptics believe in god myths.

The absurdity of Watson's little cause is she's apparently a skeptic who doesn't recognize skeptics are not a monolithic group. From the tunnel I view this whole kerfuffle through, she can't seem to comprehend her version of feminism is not the only legitimate version.
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Old 24th October 2012, 01:05 PM   #19
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I think all the hyperbole surrounding Ms. Watson's elevator story is a little outrageous. In the moment, she might have honestly felt intimidated or "creeped out" by the guy or whatever, and that's understandable. But for her to extrapolate that singular experience to an admonishment of all men's interactions with all women everywhere just comes off as ridiculously melodramatic. For her to state unequivocally that every man should always refrain from offering a friendly invitation to any woman in any situation where they happen to be alone together is kind of insulting.

But however much you might scoff at "Elevatorgate" and dislike Rebecca Watson's attention-grabbing personality, she does have a point about the rampant sexism. While some of the examples she cites might be written off as people who personally dislike Rebecca Watson saying things calculated specifically to antagonize her, there actually is a surprising amount of misogyny within the "skeptic" and "atheist" communities.
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Old 24th October 2012, 01:22 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Agreed. The whole point of JREF should be a continuation of The Enlightenment, i.e., the concerted effort to acknowledge and expunge patterns of thinking that are ignorant, irrational, demeaning, etc.

Regardless of one's take on the "elevator incident," it's clear that misogyny is a problem among some people in the skeptical community. Those people need a figurative dope-slap to help them realize the harm they're doing not just to women alienated by their behavior, but to the entire skeptical movement when it is robbed of the insights of brilliant women who choose not to participate in that movement because of their fears (whether real or merely perceived) of being harassed.
We all have our opinion on watson.

Mysoginy is a problem in nearly ALL community. I have not seen evidence it is more predominent in our community than in other community. I have perceived a few evidence it less predominent (I perceive it to be less compared to other forums, viist gamer forum and CON theym are much worst IMO but i could be biased). Sue there is work to go to zero but is even zero, as the rate to strive for, even reachable ? I contend it is irrealist.
There will always be rotten apple in all HUMAN communities.

Amd I am not sure what mysoginy has to do with skepticism. They seem to be orthogonal issues. YOu can be a mysogin and a skeptic, and you can be not-mysogin and utter irrational woo.
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Old 24th October 2012, 01:37 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
You know what other organizations are like that? Churches.

What church do/did you belong to? If mine ever got like that we'd have a riot!

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Old 24th October 2012, 01:40 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The absurdity of Watson's little cause is she's apparently a skeptic who doesn't recognize skeptics are not a monolithic group.
Well ... yeah, but ... there was a time when I thought I had a pretty good idea what skeptics were like. Sure, they might have different histories and personalities, but they would have a lot in common, wouldn't they?

They'd be smart. Educated. Critical thinkers. Careful analysts. Having a good grasp of science.

They'd be deliberate in what they said and did. Reason, not emotion, would be their prime mover.

They would recognize that there were things they DIDN'T know. As skeptics despise BS-ers, they would not engage in BS-ing themselves.

And so on. I actually thought skeptics as a group would be a more likeable class of people. I actually thought this.

And indeed many skeptics do fit these descriptions. But I was stunned to find how many self-described skeptics do not.

At my first skeptics meeting, I ran into several people were as stupid as sacks of soda straws. I also met people who were rash, and who were so lacking in the reasoning department that I wondered how they got along in life; and I also wondered if they had the slightest inkling what a "skeptic" was. And I encountered BS-artists, LOTS of them. At subsequent meetings, big and small, it was much the same. I liked some people and found others to be--to put it mildly--odd, not fitting my notions of what a "skeptic" ought to be.

As Skeptic Ginger said, it is absurd to see skeptics as a monolithic group. But there was a time when I thought they might be, and I had to be taught otherwise by experience.

Today, it would not surprise me if there were people in these crowds that do not know basic good manners when it comes to dealing with others, especially others of the opposite sex. Skeptics, as a group, are not immune from any of the negative qualities of human character.
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Old 24th October 2012, 01:44 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
I'm sorry, there are still people who listen to or believe anything Rebecca Watson has to say?

She's a self-absorbed attention-grabbing radfem drama llama bully who hasn't said anything remotely skeptical in more than a year. Elevatorgate blew up when she decided to start labelling anyone who disagreed with her on anything as "misogynists" and "parrots," dictating that her word was law for all women, everywhere.

The idea of applying skepticism, or even just open discussion, to any one of her feminist claims sends her into a flaming tirade. Her and her ever-shrinking clique have started their own movement, and unless you uncritically accept everything they say, you're not welcome as a member. And if you're not a member, then you should be shunned from the community.
I'm one who stilll listens and believes her. She didn't label people who disagreed with her, she labeled the ones who where hostile and rude, and I don't blame her. The venom she received for her rather innocuous comments on that video are inexcusable.

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Old 24th October 2012, 01:51 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
While some of the examples she cites might be written off as people who personally dislike Rebecca Watson saying things calculated specifically to antagonize her, there actually is a surprising amount of misogyny within the "skeptic" and "atheist" communities.
This.
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Old 24th October 2012, 01:56 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Fordama View Post
She didn't label people who disagreed with her,
Yes, she did.
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Old 24th October 2012, 02:02 PM   #26
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That is one disturbing article though. I had avoided much of the discussion to date, but really she does seem to have received vast abuse. I only recall her vaguely from being banned from her for messing about with mod stuff?
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Old 24th October 2012, 02:06 PM   #27
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She still seems to think that "Dear Muslima" was a response to "Guys, don't do that" instead of a reaction to the firestorm that resulted with hyperbolic shrieking about "rape culture".
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Old 24th October 2012, 02:23 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Brown View Post
Well ... yeah, but ... there was a time when I thought I had a pretty good idea what skeptics were like. Sure, they might have different histories and personalities, but they would have a lot in common, wouldn't they?

[snipped for space]

As Skeptic Ginger said, it is absurd to see skeptics as a monolithic group. But there was a time when I thought they might be, and I had to be taught otherwise by experience.

Today, it would not surprise me if there were people in these crowds that do not know basic good manners when it comes to dealing with others, especially others of the opposite sex. Skeptics, as a group, are not immune from any of the negative qualities of human character.
Not to revisit the whole thing for a third time, (though I have no doubt we will in another 50+ page thread ), most of what Watson complains about is baloney. It's not that, if true, we shouldn't address a problem of misbehaving men among skeptics. It's that it is simply NOT TRUE.

Specifically, a couple of incidents at TAM hardly means the whole community is defective or disappointing. At a conference, in Las Vegas for crying out loud, a couple of guys every year get drunk and act stupid. So what? OMFSM, the community isn't perfect. It's hardly a bastion of rampant misogyny.

There are more men than women at TAM. Watson and her minions claimed that was because the horrid behavior of men chased women away. Puhleese! Are we that fragile that one or two jerks at a conference is devastating?

Extensive efforts to quantify these horrible incidents and the number of women supposedly chased away from TAM and other events found a tiny handful of each. I'm pretty sure it would have been way fewer incidents than a typical conference with hundreds of people in attendance.

OTOH, the fact a lot of skeptics happen to be interested in science and there are more men than women in the hard sciences (a condition that is rapidly changing) easily explains why there might be more men than women at TAMs.

And yes, historically, women have had to break into these fields, be that science, math or engineering. Fine, address that issue but address it honestly, not with some ridiculous exaggeration about the horrible misogyny in the skeptics' communities.


First, from my very feminist viewpoint, Watson's feminist view is the one that is harmful to women.
Second, she's distorted Dawkins' comments and essentially claimed victimhood that is made from straw.
Third, she seriously exaggerated her own victimization in order to rationalize her absurd response to people who did not fall all over themselves agreeing with her about the guy who made a pass in the elevator. This includes exaggerating the problems at TAM and other events, exaggerating the lack of administration response to her complaints, and exaggerating the proportion of women who had personal experiences that supported Watson's exaggerations.


In short, the vast majority of men at TAM and other atheist/skeptical function seem to be perfectly well behaved. Watson's belief she's a victim is exaggerated beyond absurdity. People post jerky things in response to blogs. Famous people have creepy fans. It's not some issue within the skeptic communities, it's an issue with any large collection of people.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 24th October 2012 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 24th October 2012, 02:33 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by cj.23 View Post
That is one disturbing article though. I had avoided much of the discussion to date, but really she does seem to have received vast abuse. I only recall her vaguely from being banned from her for messing about with mod stuff?
The banning has zero to do with the elevator kerfuffle. But maybe it was a sign of her progressively growing disagreement with the JREF community.

As for the vast abuse, yeah, her at the whole rest of the blogosphere stars. Those kinds of blog replies are as common as dirt.
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Old 24th October 2012, 02:36 PM   #30
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I can't follow much of this, because it took place over many blogs, over along time, but the issue appears to be little to do with skepticism and much to do with misogyny? I have been a member of lots of Skeptic forums, and have argued fiercely with people - why all week GeeMack and I have been going for each other hammer & tongs - but if we met I'd buy him lunch and I'm pretty sure we would have a laugh and get on actually. Yet if I was a woman, perhaps my experience would be markedly different? I have seen frightening misogyny on completely non-sceptic forums at times? So why is this depicted as a skeptic issue alone?
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Old 24th October 2012, 02:38 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
If you get enough people in a group, you'll likely start to get a representation of a typical population when it comes to personalities and behavior.

Some Catholic priests and Boy Scoutmasters rape young boys. Some of the least critical thinkers believe they are skeptics. Some self identified atheists believe in the paranormal. Some otherwise critically thinking skeptics believe in god myths.

The absurdity of Watson's little cause is she's apparently a skeptic who doesn't recognize skeptics are not a monolithic group. From the tunnel I view this whole kerfuffle through, she can't seem to comprehend her version of feminism is not the only legitimate version.
That is quite true, Skeptic Ginger. Here is an article from the same magazine about a skeptic who should really know better than to believe that he visited Heaven, or even that Heaven exists:

http://www.slate.com/articles/health...vangelist.html
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Old 24th October 2012, 02:38 PM   #32
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Most people feel flattered when someone shows interest in them. The man in the elevator did absolutely nothing wrong. I think Dawkins' post was fairly clever and certainly made his point.

Then again, I think that tweet that is posted in the article is quite funny as well. Her comment on the tweet was, "In the weeks leading up to TAM, a man tweeted that he was attending and that if he ran into me in an elevator, he’d assault me."

I would beg to differ. There is a word for what he wrote. It's called a joke.

Any real abuse Watson took can't be condoned, but she seems to have an incredibly thin skin and not much of a sense of humor.
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Old 24th October 2012, 02:51 PM   #33
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maybe she realises that the elevator thing is keeping her in the headlines, so to speak. like geller and his spoon, one trick can go a long way.

im finding it hard to be tough on rebecca as i love sgu and think she adds a great deal. the show has been mainly silent on the issues recently although the interview with jamy ian swiss seemed to be quietly pointing toward a+.

i think they, including rebecca should openly talk of their views on the subject of mixing social justice with skepticism. id like to hear that on the show.

lxxx
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Old 24th October 2012, 03:07 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by LandR View Post
I stopped listening to SGU because I can't stand her.
I hope that doesn't happen to me, because I otherwise enjoy that show. I've been going through the archives, and I haven't yet hit the episodes where she's a regular. However, from listening to more recent shows that she co-hosts, I've found her personality...grating. She seems like somebody who delights in needling people.
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Old 24th October 2012, 03:35 PM   #35
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Years later and she is still going on about this? She needs professional "help" so she can put this behind her and move on.

Sheesh...
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Old 24th October 2012, 04:10 PM   #36
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Rebecca Watson on Slate

The Slate commenters are having a blast already with her post today.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double...e_threats.html

I'm not entirely sure I want to comment on it here or there, because my opinion is neither black nor white, therefore seems to be irritating to everyone. I just don't feel up to being shot by both sides today.
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Old 24th October 2012, 04:11 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
The Slate commenters are having a blast already with her post today.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double...e_threats.html

I'm not entirely sure I want to comment on it here or there, because my opinion is neither black nor white, therefore seems to be irritating to everyone. I just don't feel up to being shot by both sides today.
I think the fact that both sides would be shotting pretty much says everything that needs to be said about the validity of their arguments.

I've rarely seen so much made from so little.
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Old 24th October 2012, 04:18 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The banning has zero to do with the elevator kerfuffle. But maybe it was a sign of her progressively growing disagreement with the JREF community.

I thought it was because she had registered a joke sock-puppet account, which is against the forum rules.
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Old 24th October 2012, 04:23 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by John Albert View Post
I thought it was because she had registered a joke sock-puppet account, which is against the forum rules.
She was suspended for that. When she was un-suspended, she was accidentally given mod access, which she used. That got her banned.
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Old 24th October 2012, 04:28 PM   #40
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