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Tags bigfoot , Bob Gimlin , Patterson-Gimlin film , Roger Patterson

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Old 22nd June 2012, 07:19 PM   #8521
River
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Originally Posted by Óðinn View Post
Sue you? For not proving the PGF was a hoax? You forget Superman, we don't have X-ray vision like you. Tho I'd prefer to have "airport scanner vision".

No xray vision required. My claims made in the article are accurate and duplicable.


So why isnt Gimlin or Pat Patterson chasing down these scoundrels that make such accusations? Sounds like an easy libel suit if my claims were bogus. Gimlin chooses words very carefully when describing the PGF. (all IMHO of course) I'd love for them to take me to court on this basis and be able to prove to a court that the film was faked. Like I said, bring it on. The PGF is a hoaxed film. Gimlin told me personally that he filmed that scene of Roger casting the track. He had to be "in" on it.

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Old 23rd June 2012, 11:01 AM   #8522
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
What good is discussing it with people who aren't even open to the idea of it existing. It would mean no matter how much material is discussed I would always get the same opinion from the other side.

I'm open to the PGF being hoaxed. If the proper evidence can be brought forward showing it's a hoax then i'm all for it, but right now the film and BobH's contradictions speak differently.
If you don't look at "Patty" and see anything other than a man in a suit then i'm very sorry to hear about your condition.
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Old 24th June 2012, 05:54 PM   #8523
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
What good is discussing it with people who aren't even open to the idea of it existing. It would mean no matter how much material is discussed I would always get the same opinion from the other side.

I'm open to the PGF being hoaxed. If the proper evidence can be brought forward showing it's a hoax then i'm all for it, but right now the film and BobH's contradictions speak differently.
You seem to misunderstand who has the burden of proof here. Given the fact that physical evidence for such a creature (no, footprints don't count as they can be easily faked) has never been found, it is the folks claiming that the PGF is real who have to provide evidence. That PGF is a hoax is actually the operating assumption until evidence is provided for its authenticity.
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Old 24th June 2012, 06:15 PM   #8524
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If you come back OS,it might be good to listen to both sides of the story. However, you can find the same information in the PGF threads on the BFF. Here or there, it's worth a read if you are interested.

I wasn't interested enough to research the technical talk on camera work and some other things to really appreciate the issues. You need to do your own research to see if what someone is saying is accurate, don't just take the information at face value.
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Old 24th June 2012, 06:28 PM   #8525
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Originally Posted by Chris L View Post
You seem to misunderstand who has the burden of proof here. Given the fact that physical evidence for such a creature (no, footprints don't count as they can be easily faked) has never been found, it is the folks claiming that the PGF is real who have to provide evidence. That PGF is a hoax is actually the operating assumption until evidence is provided for its authenticity.
Well. that is it. It is annoying but more than that just silly ! Folks show up here and make claims that they cannot provide proof or any evidence and then.... Then they complain and get upset that we do not buy into it !

Why would someone that believes in BF even bother with this Forum under such circumstances ?
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Old 25th June 2012, 08:40 PM   #8526
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I believe Patty was some kind of human. Not a gorilla like what Phillip Morris said. One of the best pieces of evidence for it was her foot.





Phillip Morris and BobH sound believable until one actually looks carefully at the film. I know one guy who made it his mission to prove she was a fake without even analyzing the actual footage.
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Old 25th June 2012, 08:48 PM   #8527
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Yes, because a costume maker would neglect the feet.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

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Old 25th June 2012, 08:53 PM   #8528
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Oh wait...



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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

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Old 25th June 2012, 09:05 PM   #8529
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
...... I know one guy who made it his mission to prove she was a fake without even analyzing the actual footage.
Please tell us what "analysis" of the film means...the distance between the sprocket holes? and tell us how this "analysis" of the film proves it's real. I don't think even Bill Munns makes that claim. Cause he admitted his "analysis" of the film had produced the wrong result, and not so long ago he said he needed $75,000 more just to try to prove it. Do you know something we don't know? Was he lying? had he already proved it, told you and no one else, and was just trying to con the others out of more money?

I know MORE than one guy who decided the film wasn't a hoax without ever reading The Making of Bigfoot by Greg Long. How about THAT?
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Old 25th June 2012, 09:11 PM   #8530
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The toes disappear in a few of the frames, but they are in fact there.
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Old 25th June 2012, 10:05 PM   #8531
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
I believe Patty was some kind of human...

There's something out there waiting for us... and it ain't no man...
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Old 25th June 2012, 10:11 PM   #8532
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
The toes disappear in a few of the frames, but they are in fact there.
Are you sure that your example is from the film itself?
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Old 25th June 2012, 10:23 PM   #8533
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And how did we get from perfectfoot to blockfoot in only 11 frames? We have a perfectly rendered right foot, and 11 frames later we have an amorphous block blob of a left foot.
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Old 26th June 2012, 05:59 AM   #8534
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Is that from the original film or from the retouched Cibachromes?

Here are some original frames, see any toes here?
http://themunnsreport.com/pgf%20ref_...20sequence.jpg

Here is the best copy of perfectfoot, DDA posted it at BFF, however, Bill Munns has not posted the original as far as I can tell anywhere.

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Old 26th June 2012, 06:32 AM   #8535
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Sorry - late to the party. Has it been suggested that toes seen on Patty were added in by folks "enhancing" the film? I just assumed such toes could be seen because, of course, I'd put them on my costume bigfoot feet.
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Old 26th June 2012, 07:22 AM   #8536
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If the footprints have toes, and the film shows no toes, someone must have taken it upon themselves to add toes.
Or it is part of the stick in the background.
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Old 26th June 2012, 08:12 AM   #8537
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So you can't see any toes in the original?
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Old 26th June 2012, 08:23 AM   #8538
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IIRC, you can only see actual toes on the Cibachrome print copy of frame 61.

Perfectfoot is from frame 61, when Patty is far away, and blockfoot is from frame 72, I believe.

So we seem to have detail when Patty is farther away from the camera, and no detail when Patty is closer.

Or maybe not.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

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Old 26th June 2012, 08:28 AM   #8539
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Someone calculated the limits of resolution for the film and as I recall it would seem to be about 1-2 cm on the body of the subject.

The separate toes are made visible only by the width of the shadows between them, which depend on the "lateral" angle between the sole and the sun. When the sole of the foot faces the sun, you will not see separate toes, because there is little or no shadow between the toes; when the sole is oblique to the sun, the shadow becomes wider, and you might see these inter-toe shadows, hence the toes look separate. The visibility of the ends of the toes obviously also depends on the background. So it is not surprising that toes are seen in some frames but not in others.

You might argue that for normal people, this angle doesn't change much during the stride. True enough, but PattyBob has an abnormal rotation of the foot, about the long axis if the leg, caused by the long feet. This is the ground clearance issue mentioned by Meldrum in that Best Evidence segment at the Stanford Gait laboratory. In other words, he walks like he is wearing swim fins.

Long story short, the sole of blockfoot is facing the sun, hence no resolvable inter-toe shadows, while the sole of perfectfoot has swung out of the en face position, so the toe shadows are big enough to be seen. No doctoring of the film is necessary, imho.

Of course, keep in mind that I dreamed up this explanation at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
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Old 26th June 2012, 08:37 AM   #8540
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Originally Posted by parnassus View Post
Someone calculated the limits of resolution for the film and as I recall it would seem to be about 1-2 cm on the body of the subject. So it is not surprising that toes are seen in some frames but not in others.
http://www.bigfootencounters.com/biology/fahrenbach.htm

2" limit...
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Old 26th June 2012, 08:50 AM   #8541
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
So you can't see any toes in the original?
It is definitely questionable.
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Old 26th June 2012, 08:52 AM   #8542
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Originally Posted by parnassus View Post
Someone calculated the limits of resolution for the film and as I recall it would seem to be about 1-2 cm on the body of the subject.

The separate toes are made visible only by the width of the shadows between them, which depend on the "lateral" angle between the sole and the sun. When the sole of the foot faces the sun, you will not see separate toes, because there is little or no shadow between the toes; when the sole is oblique to the sun, the shadow becomes wider, and you might see these inter-toe shadows, hence the toes look separate. The visibility of the ends of the toes obviously also depends on the background. So it is not surprising that toes are seen in some frames but not in others.

You might argue that for normal people, this angle doesn't change much during the stride. True enough, but PattyBob has an abnormal rotation of the foot, about the long axis if the leg, caused by the long feet. This is the ground clearance issue mentioned by Meldrum in that Best Evidence segment at the Stanford Gait laboratory. In other words, he walks like he is wearing swim fins.

Long story short, the sole of blockfoot is facing the sun, hence no resolvable inter-toe shadows, while the sole of perfectfoot has swung out of the en face position, so the toe shadows are big enough to be seen.

Of course, keep in mind that I dreamed up this explanation at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
You will have to point to the toes in the original, because I certainly can't be sure that is what I'm seein'.
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Old 26th June 2012, 09:07 AM   #8543
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Originally Posted by parnassus View Post
Someone calculated the limits of resolution for the film and as I recall it would seem to be about 1-2 cm on the body of the subject.

The separate toes are made visible only by the width of the shadows between them, which depend on the "lateral" angle between the sole and the sun. When the sole of the foot faces the sun, you will not see separate toes, because there is little or no shadow between the toes; when the sole is oblique to the sun, the shadow becomes wider, and you might see these inter-toe shadows, hence the toes look separate. The visibility of the ends of the toes obviously also depends on the background. So it is not surprising that toes are seen in some frames but not in others.

You might argue that for normal people, this angle doesn't change much during the stride. True enough, but PattyBob has an abnormal rotation of the foot, about the long axis if the leg, caused by the long feet. This is the ground clearance issue mentioned by Meldrum in that Best Evidence segment at the Stanford Gait laboratory. In other words, he walks like he is wearing swim fins.

Long story short, the sole of blockfoot is facing the sun, hence no resolvable inter-toe shadows, while the sole of perfectfoot has swung out of the en face position, so the toe shadows are big enough to be seen. No doctoring of the film is necessary, imho.

Of course, keep in mind that I dreamed up this explanation at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Go back to sleep...
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 26th June 2012, 09:18 AM   #8544
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Red Herring, no? If no toes are discernible, you chalk it up to resolution. If toes are discernible with better resolution, that proves nothing either. What moron wouldn't put toes on his fake bigfoot feet?
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Old 26th June 2012, 09:23 AM   #8545
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If you are making the prints separate of the trackway, you don't need toes in the costume.
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Old 26th June 2012, 09:32 AM   #8546
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Why does John Napier say that Patty's feet were not visible to him when he was evaluating the PGF way back when?

They must not have shown him much of the film.

He does, however, note the gait is that of a man as are the proportions.

Quote:
Dr. John R. Napier: I observed nothing that, on scientific grounds, would point conclusively to a hoax. I am satisfied that the walk of the creature shown in the film was consistent with the bipedal striding gait of man (except in the action of the feet, which were not visible). I have two reservations which are both subjective: First, the slow cadence of the walk and the fluidity of the bodily movements, particularly the arms, struck me as exaggerated--almost self-conscious in comparison with modern man; second, my impression was that the subject was male, in spite of the contrary evidence of heavy, pendulous breasts. The bodily proportions of the creature, as far as could be seen, appeared to be within normal limits for man. The appearance of the high crest on top of the skull is unknown in man, but given a creature as heavily built as the subject, such a biomechanical adaptation to an exclusively fibrous raw vegetable diet is not impossible. The presence of this crest, which occurs only in male non-human primates, such as the gorilla and the orangutan, tends to strengthen my belief that this creature is a male. Finally, it might be supposed that a creature with a heavy head, heavy jaw and musculature and a massive upper body would have a center of gravity placed at a higher level than in man. The position of the center of gravity modifies the gait and the easy stride shown in the film is not in harmony with a high center of gravity. The opinions I have expressed on this remarkable film are those of an expert witness, rather than a member of a jury.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 26th June 2012, 09:35 AM   #8547
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And Heuvelmans dismissed it outright as a hoax because of the obvious artificial fur.
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Old 26th June 2012, 09:57 AM   #8548
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Quote:
Finally, it might be supposed that a creature with a heavy head, heavy jaw and musculature and a massive upper body would have a center of gravity placed at a higher level than in man. The position of the center of gravity modifies the gait and the easy stride shown in the film is not in harmony with a high center of gravity.
This to me says mask and shoulder pads are responsible for the discrepancy between apprarent size and actual mass.
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Old 26th June 2012, 10:01 AM   #8549
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Thanks for pulling that out. Doesn't that seem overly large? I mean, the resolution is low but that would make the subject little more than a blob.
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Old 26th June 2012, 10:06 AM   #8550
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Originally Posted by parnassus View Post
Thanks for pulling that out. Doesn't that seem overly large? I mean, the resolution is low but that would make the subject little more than a blob.
Well, the subject is pretty small when you see a full frame...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=5215

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1&postcount=19

Even then, we may be looking at a copy that's blown up a little.

I doubt we see any frames from the original PGF film, whatever that really is, very often.

Look for a lot of scratches.
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Old 26th June 2012, 10:58 AM   #8551
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Originally Posted by parnassus View Post
Thanks for pulling that out. Doesn't that seem overly large? I mean, the resolution is low but that would make the subject little more than a blob.
I've always thought Fahrenbach's 2" resolution estimate was off the mark. It seems that the scant details we do have -- the dot of light inside the dark eye socket, EG -- would not register if the resolution were that large.

It would be nice to get a second opinion on this matter from a photo expert, but alack I am not that person.
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Old 26th June 2012, 02:47 PM   #8552
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
We already discussed that the area may have been raked...

With pics.

But I don't want to upset you.
You guys are hilarious. This has nothing to do with my beliefs, which you have no idea of. I just happen to know what constitutes as scientific proof. You obviously don't. So..carry on.
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Old 26th June 2012, 02:52 PM   #8553
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Originally Posted by Volsquatch View Post
Why? You already have "Bleever Vision", which is even better.
Grow up, bleever.
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Old 26th June 2012, 03:09 PM   #8554
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Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
I've always thought Fahrenbach's 2" resolution estimate was off the mark. It seems that the scant details we do have -- the dot of light inside the dark eye socket, EG -- would not register if the resolution were that large.

It would be nice to get a second opinion on this matter from a photo expert, but alack I am not that person.
If you accept that the toes exist on frame 61, then the resolution of the PGF is at least the width of the shadows between the toes. Less than 2" to be sure.
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Old 26th June 2012, 03:19 PM   #8555
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That article is suggesting more than 100X blow-up of the PGF - well beyond the most basic features of a figure discernable in detail. Almost as if the director didn't want you to see those details.

Such an amazing coincidence that a guy practicing filming a hoax happens to have encountered bigfoot as if it were staged just perfectly for a hoax.
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Old 26th June 2012, 03:24 PM   #8556
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Originally Posted by parnassus View Post
This to me says mask and shoulder pads are responsible for the discrepancy between apprarent size and actual mass.
Yes.

Bigfoot's gait makes better sense if you lower the mass to Bob Heironimus with a suit, which puts the CG lower, and the paradox disappears.
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Old 26th June 2012, 07:17 PM   #8557
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Originally Posted by Óðinn View Post
You guys are hilarious. This has nothing to do with my beliefs, which you have no idea of. I just happen to know what constitutes as scientific proof. You obviously don't. So..carry on.
If you went back and read those posts about raking the site, you'd probably realize how funny my last post was...or was intended to be...

But it's probably better if you just skip it...

Scientific? Bigfoot?

It's a scientific joke, maybe...
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 26th June 2012, 07:19 PM   #8558
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Originally Posted by Óðinn View Post
If you accept that the toes exist on frame 61, then the resolution of the PGF is at least the width of the shadows between the toes. Less than 2" to be sure.
Where is the original frame 61?

We need that, right?

Science.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 27th June 2012, 11:31 AM   #8559
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If we are to somehow solve one problem, there are still others. One problem is the actual walk that can't be exactly replicated. Another is building such a suit with technology that is from the 60's. And the biggest problem is actually getting a typical human to look like that. The limb proportions seem to be most impossible to replicate with a modern human.
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Old 27th June 2012, 11:42 AM   #8560
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Wow dude - do some reading. You'll find such "problems", and more, thoroughly addressed right here on the JREF.

Your post reminds me of someone walking into the main lobby of the American Lung Association proclaiming, "I know a guy who smoked his whole life and never got cancer, so this whole cigarette thing you're doing is wrong."
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