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Tags bigfoot , Bob Gimlin , Patterson-Gimlin film , Roger Patterson

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Old 27th June 2012, 11:49 AM   #8561
Correa Neto
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And skeptics are the ones supposed to be close-minded...

BTW, what sort of evolutionary pressures would turn a member of the Homo genus in to something that looks like a guy in a gorilla costume?

Money.
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Old 27th June 2012, 12:22 PM   #8562
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Finally, it might be supposed that a creature with a heavy head, heavy jaw and musculature and a massive upper body would have a center of gravity placed at a higher level than in man. The position of the center of gravity modifies the gait and the easy stride shown in the film is not in harmony with a high center of gravity.
I've always been shocked that skeptics haven't raised this issue more. Wouldn't this sort of issue with the center of gravity be impossible in a real animal? If so, isn't this slam dunk proof that Patty is a hoax?
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Old 27th June 2012, 01:02 PM   #8563
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Most 'footers won't understand the concept so it'll go nowhere with them.
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Old 27th June 2012, 01:12 PM   #8564
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
If we are to somehow solve one problem, there are still others. One problem is the actual walk that can't be exactly replicated. Another is building such a suit with technology that is from the 60's. And the biggest problem is actually getting a typical human to look like that. The limb proportions seem to be most impossible to replicate with a modern human.
Ontario,
Bob H. does walk like that, exactly like that, but let's throw him out of the picture for now.

How can you say that the walk can't be exactly replicated? How many people have tried to replicate it? Seriously, how many? Maybe 3 at the most?

IMO most scientists, and people in general, instantly recognize Patty as a bloke in a suit and dismiss the PGF. Why should these people try to match the walk when the whole thing is such an obvious hoax?

By the way, APES DON'T SWING THEIR ARMS.

And please, please don't get swayed by Sweaty's nonsense regarding limb proportions. The bloke in the suit is wearing shoulder pads, which add nearly 6" to what looks like his arms. Plus his fingers are most likely not all the way into the gloves, making the arms look even longer.

It really is just that simple.
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Old 27th June 2012, 01:15 PM   #8565
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
If we are to somehow solve one problem, there are still others. One problem is the actual walk that can't be exactly replicated. Another is building such a suit with technology that is from the 60's. And the biggest problem is actually getting a typical human to look like that. The limb proportions seem to be most impossible to replicate with a modern human.
The walk is easily replicated. It's been done enough.

There are plenty of contemporaneous suit examples, and the PGF suit isn't that good, anyway.

How are you getting limb proportions from a suit?

You can keep repeating this stuff all you want, it won't make it accurate, and we will keep on posting responses.
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Old 27th June 2012, 03:06 PM   #8566
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
If we are to somehow solve one problem, there are still others. One problem is the actual walk that can't be exactly replicated. Another is building such a suit with technology that is from the 60's. And the biggest problem is actually getting a typical human to look like that. The limb proportions seem to be most impossible to replicate with a modern human.
Seriously. I implore you to find the discussion with SweatyYeti and the limb proportions, that discussion thoroughly analyzes the topic.
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Old 27th June 2012, 04:49 PM   #8567
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
The walk is easily replicated. It's been done enough.
Not every aspect is possible to replicate at once.

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
There are plenty of contemporaneous suit examples, and the PGF suit isn't that good, anyway.
If it wasn't "that good" we wouldn't even be discussing this right now. It's still the greatest Bigfoot video that's publicly available right now, regardless of whether it's actually hoaxed.

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
How are you getting limb proportions from a suit?
Putting the skeletal overlay of a typical human on Patty can show how problematic it is getting a human to look like her in a suit.



My personal opinion is a hoax from the 60's would be way worse than a hoax that can be done today. Yet this one is better.
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Old 27th June 2012, 05:06 PM   #8568
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
Not every aspect is possible to replicate at once.



If it wasn't "that good" we wouldn't even be discussing this right now. It's still the greatest Bigfoot video that's publicly available right now, regardless of whether it's actually hoaxed.



Putting the skeletal overlay of a typical human on Patty can show how problematic it is getting a human to look like her in a suit.



My personal opinion is a hoax from the 60's would be way worse than a hoax that can be done today. Yet this one is better.
That's all been hashed out here so many times and so many ways...

Skeletal overlay? We're tired of skeletal overlays. We've seen so many, and talked about them so much, we're sick of them.

All you are doing is continuing an endless line of repetitive claims.

It's as if there is a school for footers, and every six months a new graduate comes over here to tell us what for...

And we get to hear the same things over again, as if they were just discovered...
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Old 27th June 2012, 05:09 PM   #8569
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
Putting the skeletal overlay of a typical human on Patty can show how problematic it is getting a human to look like her in a suit.
Please show us the overlay.

Sorry, LTC but I think this will be enlightening.
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Old 27th June 2012, 05:22 PM   #8570
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
If it wasn't "that good" so well known we wouldn't even be discussing this right now.
Fixed!

Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
It's still the greatest Bigfoot video that's publicly available right now, regardless of whether it's actually hoaxed.
If you take "may contain an actual Bigfoot" out of the criteria, the PGF isn't even on the radar. You might want to check out Harry and the Hendersons for starters.
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Old 27th June 2012, 05:56 PM   #8571
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I would at the very least like to see a replication of the "suit", but unfortunately I might be asking for too much

Once that's done, we can move to the even harder step of someone actually wearing it and looking like Patty.

The final step would be getting someone to walk like her in that suit.

And if only technology that was available in the 60's is to be used, I guess you could say it's a truly impossible task.
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Old 27th June 2012, 06:47 PM   #8572
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
I would at the very least like to see a replication of the "suit", but unfortunately I might be asking for too much

Once that's done, we can move to the even harder step of someone actually wearing it and looking like Patty.

The final step would be getting someone to walk like her in that suit.

And if only technology that was available in the 60's is to be used, I guess you could say it's a truly impossible task.
Unfortunately, only believers are really interested in seeing the suit "replicated", and they seem unwilling to mount even a cursory effort.

Only believers demand a suit replication. They never seem willing to take the time and effort on behalf of their own cause, though. They always demand that others do it. Despite making and spending lots of dough for the cause.

Us science based folks know the burden is not on us, and we can just sit back and await evidence, and evaluate it as it arrives, or doesn't.

We can see the suit in the film. We don't need to have it replicated. We know that science and time are firmly on our side.

We know that a suit replication, even if successful, would be fruitless in the face of old dog eared beliefs.
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Old 27th June 2012, 06:55 PM   #8573
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Believers have already made it clear that even if the Patty suit were actually found, making the PGF, and the real beginnings of mainstream bigfoot a hoax, it wouldn't change their mind about bigfoot being real.
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Old 27th June 2012, 07:35 PM   #8574
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Dude, that sounds just like Sylvia Browne when she was asked by James Randi to prove herself.

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Only believers demand a suit replication.
Some of us certainly do. And for really good reason.

Last edited by OntarioSquatch; 27th June 2012 at 07:37 PM.
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Old 27th June 2012, 07:42 PM   #8575
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Believers have already made it clear that even if the Patty suit were actually found, making the PGF, and the real beginnings of mainstream bigfoot a hoax, it wouldn't change their mind about bigfoot being real.
They just did it again.
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Old 27th June 2012, 07:44 PM   #8576
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The original "suit" being found would certainly lay this mystery to rest once and for all whether some believers like it or not.
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Old 27th June 2012, 07:51 PM   #8577
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and again !
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Old 27th June 2012, 07:56 PM   #8578
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
The original "suit" being found would certainly lay this mystery to rest once and for all whether some believers like it or not.

Yeah because you know, the fact bigfoot doesnt exist, and the fact the actor "came out" and there have been folks like myself that have found proof of the hoax in the film itself. None of that matters. Gimlin would never lie! lol...

The true believers want so bad for this to be real. They need it to help support their baseless claims. Even "if" a suit is found and produced that is most likely the one used in the film, the excuses will still come. Just as they did when the actor came clean.

The only mystery here is what drives the believers to support such a fantasy.
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Old 27th June 2012, 08:00 PM   #8579
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
I would at the very least like to see a replication of the "suit", but unfortunately I might be asking for too much

Once that's done, we can move to the even harder step of someone actually wearing it and looking like Patty.

The final step would be getting someone to walk like her in that suit.

And if only technology that was available in the 60's is to be used, I guess you could say it's a truly impossible task.
Can you prove that your method is valid? Choose any suit-based special effect from the 60s. Let's say King Kong vs Godzilla; pick either suit. Replicate the suit exactly, then find someone to meticulously replicate the movements of the suit actor in the film. This should be easier than replicating the PGF, because we have considerably more footage of the suits and of a higher quality.

When you've completed that task to the point that you can exactly duplicate what's seen on film, we'll accept that your proposed methodology is valid and we'll get right to work on that Patty suit.

If you can't complete that simple task, we must assume that they've been lying to us that special effects were used in that film and it depicts an actual giant ape and an actual giant radioactive lizard thing, right? No?
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Old 27th June 2012, 08:01 PM   #8580
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The driving factors involve age, media saturation, the internet, the inability to do their own self examination of this topic and take the time to learn, and the lack of critical thinking skills. Hard to get by the combination of all of those things .

Last edited by AttorneyTom; 27th June 2012 at 08:12 PM. Reason: meant to say inability...
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Old 27th June 2012, 08:05 PM   #8581
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I have no interest in replicating the suit, or seeing the suit replicated.

I wouldn't spend a dime on my own, and I wouldn't donate a dime for such a project.

If you told me you could duplicate the suit perfectly, and demonstrated that you could do so, I probably still wouldn't give you a dime to help.

It would be wasted money and effort.

And I think if bigfoot were real, it would be a very cool thing. But it isn't.
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Old 27th June 2012, 09:06 PM   #8582
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Ontario,

Post #8569.
Let's see the overlay.
IOW, put up or shut up.
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Old 27th June 2012, 09:50 PM   #8583
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Yeah because you know, the fact bigfoot doesnt exist, and the fact the actor "came out" and there have been folks like myself that have found proof of the hoax in the film itself. None of that matters. Gimlin would never lie! lol...

The true believers want so bad for this to be real. They need it to help support their baseless claims. Even "if" a suit is found and produced that is most likely the one used in the film, the excuses will still come. Just as they did when the actor came clean.

The only mystery here is what drives the believers to support such a fantasy.
It is some sort of attention seeking.

The posters at the BFF have made it clear that neither the suit nor a reproduction nor a confession from Gimlin would convince them. I believe them. They are totally committed to this foolishness; will never admit the unreality. With the utter failure of the DNA end of things, they will cling even harder to the PGF. Of course, Munns is as hard core as any of them. So they will cling to each other.
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Old 27th June 2012, 09:54 PM   #8584
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
I would at the very least like to see a replication of the "suit", but unfortunately I might be asking for too much
Leroy Blevins did it. On his first try. Having never made anything in those kinds of trades. He's of modest IQ, education, and abilities. So modest, in fact, that is is humorous how melodramatic you are being for how impossible it is.

Quote:
Once that's done, we can move to the even harder step of someone actually wearing it and looking like Patty.
And Bob Heironimus has not only done so, but passed two lie detector tests about his story. No other participant will do that. Or Patty, his widow. Bob Gilman? No.
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Old 27th June 2012, 09:56 PM   #8585
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Originally Posted by parnassus View Post
The posters at the BFF have made it clear that neither the suit nor a reproduction nor a confession from Gimlin would convince them. I believe them. They are totally committed to this foolishness; will never admit the unreality. With the utter failure of the DNA end of things, they will cling even harder to the PGF. Of course, Munns is as hard core as any of them. So they will cling to each other.
I want to see the "cast Hair" on the PGF.

and I dont mean the Cast of The Musical Hair !

Everything that exists drops it in the plaster.
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Old 27th June 2012, 10:02 PM   #8586
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Originally Posted by parnassus View Post
The posters at the BFF have made it clear that neither the suit nor a reproduction nor a confession from Gimlin would convince them.
A lot of those guys are foolish. But then so are some skeptics. A confession from Gimlin or Heironimus would be enough for me. Same with the suit if it's ever found and confirmed.
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Old 27th June 2012, 11:05 PM   #8587
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
A lot of those guys are foolish. But then so are some skeptics. A confession from Gimlin or Heironimus would be enough for me. Same with the suit if it's ever found and confirmed.
So you've stopped believing then? Hieronimous has said he was the guy in the suit.

Also, I think it is hilarious how trustworthy you think Bob Gimlin is. Greg Long is shady, but the circumstances surrounding the PGF aren't shady in the least bit!
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Old 28th June 2012, 06:09 AM   #8588
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
A lot of those guys are foolish. But then so are some skeptics. A confession from Gimlin or Heironimus would be enough for me. Same with the suit if it's ever found and confirmed.
As I am Bigfoot stated, Bob H. has 'confessed' numerous times but you've told us that you <paraphrasing> consider him to be a vile person <paraphrasing> so you won't accept his confession.

Now you say that a confession from him is enough to convince you that Patty isn't a real bigfoot.

Care to clear that one up for us or shall we just accept Attorney Tom's theory?
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Old 28th June 2012, 06:17 AM   #8589
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Double post.
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Old 28th June 2012, 06:32 AM   #8590
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Ontario, here's some admittedly unsolicited advice.

This is the JREF, not the BFF. The BFF is a place where people come together in an attempt to "learn more" about something they believe to be true, but the truth of which has not been unambiguously established for us great, unwashed muggles. For many people and most threads at the BFF, logic and critical thinking are suspended because the conversations so often begin with the premise that the danged things exist in the first place.

Here it's different. The focus is actually on the logic and the critical thinking. If some phenomenon has not been unambiguously established, then application of logic and critical thinking dictates that the phenomenon does not exist.

All proponents need to do to prove bigfoot is real is produce a piece of a bigfoot. This has been done at least 1.3 million times already with every species that has been described since formal systematics began in the mid-18th Century. It's easy. It's not extraordinary evidence that's needed - it's the most mundane evidence provided in biology.

It is possible for a bigfoot proponent to engage in lively and mature debate with skeptics here on the JREF, but as soon as that proponent makes a leap for which the evidence is wanting the proverbial hammer will come down. Nothing is taken for granted. You must DO YOUR HOMEWORK before attempting to mix it up here. Absent that, your statements will be insultingly naive and your reception will be cool.
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Old 28th June 2012, 06:38 AM   #8591
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Originally Posted by Ontario Sasquatch
Putting the skeletal overlay of a typical human on Patty can show how problematic it is getting a human to look like her in a suit.
Hey, what if I put that "Patty skeleton" from LMS over a gorilla costume pic and it fits?

The gorilla costume will become a bigfoot?
Or you will understand, acknowledge that it was just another footer bit of nonsense you took for real?
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Old 28th June 2012, 07:08 AM   #8592
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
A lot of those guys are foolish. But then so are some skeptics. A confession from Gimlin or Heironimus would be enough for me. Same with the suit if it's ever found and confirmed.
well, I guess that's settled, because Heironimus HAS confessed.

Ontario squatch: "Oh, wait...."
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Old 28th June 2012, 09:43 AM   #8593
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Nice try, but a confession as in something BobH and BobG and both agree on. Anyone can "confess".
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Old 28th June 2012, 09:49 AM   #8594
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OS, here are two stills from the 1984 movie Greystoke. The apes are actors in suits designed by effects artist Rick Baker in 1982. The actors trained for weeks to learn how to mimic wild chimpanzees.

I post these to show you: 1) proportions can be distorted inside a suit; 2) the illusions of natural-looking skin, hair, musculature and "inhuman movement" are well within the range of human technical capability; and 3) make-up technicians can create -- and have created! -- ape suits more lifelike and convincing than "Patty".

If your objection becomes: "But that was 15 years after the PGF; no one could have made that in 1967!", then please look forward to my next post here.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg greystoke1.jpg (73.5 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg greystoke2.jpg (135.6 KB, 1 views)
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Old 28th June 2012, 09:55 AM   #8595
OntarioSquatch
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Those are really good costumes and I think you have a good point except some proportions are impossible to distort with a suit. Bill Munns pointed a lot of them out in one of his videos for his report.
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Old 28th June 2012, 10:20 AM   #8596
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The two pics below demolish the claim that materials and techniques for a convincing ape-man suit were not available in 1967.

The "Dawn of Man" sequence in 2001: A Space Odyssey was filmed in September, 1967 -- one month before the PG film was shot. Source.
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File Type: jpg 2001-ape1-thumb.jpg (43.2 KB, 0 views)
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Old 28th June 2012, 10:56 AM   #8597
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Quote:
The two pics below demolish the claim that materials and techniques for a convincing ape-man suit were not available in 1967.
Not directed at you Vort, but such a claim begs the question that the PGF is convincing...



Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
Those are really good costumes and I think you have a good point except some proportions are impossible to distort with a suit. Bill Munns pointed a lot of them out in one of his videos for his report.
Well, if Bill said it was impossible...

Too bad Bill can't join the discussion ..

You might ask why no other FX people support Bill in his claims about the PGF ?
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Old 28th June 2012, 11:09 AM   #8598
Vortigern99
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Not directed at you Vort, but such a claim begs the question that the PGF is convincing...
Sure, but the claim is moot when we have 1967 suits and prosthetics of a superb quality staring us in the face.

We may ignore the claim that Patty is convincing without argumentation, because 1) it's subjective and non-evidential; and 2) we have highly accurate and lifelike ape-man costumes created the same year as "Patty".
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Old 28th June 2012, 12:09 PM   #8599
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tarzanweischapter7a.jpg

This apeman is from a Tarzan movie I think from 1936. It's got realistic hair, muscle definition, and inhuman limb proportions. So at least 30 years before the PGF, Hollywood was able to make ape suits that blow "Patty" out of the water.

What else you got, Ontario?
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Old 28th June 2012, 12:15 PM   #8600
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
Nice try, but a confession as in something BobH and BobG and both agree on. Anyone can "confess".
I guess the word "or" means something different in BigSpeak. I'll consult the Bigspeak Dictionary next time...oh yes, here it is: "or": conj; whatever Ontario Squatch wants it to mean."

okay, my bad.
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