|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
27th June 2012, 11:49 AM | #8561 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,548
|
And skeptics are the ones supposed to be close-minded...
BTW, what sort of evolutionary pressures would turn a member of the Homo genus in to something that looks like a guy in a gorilla costume? |
__________________
Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me: Together we can find the cure Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too… |
|
27th June 2012, 12:22 PM | #8562 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,004
|
Quote:
|
__________________
Open your mind and let the sun shine in. Let a wild hairy ape in there too, would you please? - William Parcher You can fool too many of the people too much of the time. - James Thurber |
|
27th June 2012, 01:02 PM | #8563 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Inland NW
Posts: 4,942
|
Most 'footers won't understand the concept so it'll go nowhere with them.
|
__________________
Normal in a weird way. |
|
27th June 2012, 01:12 PM | #8564 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Inland NW
Posts: 4,942
|
Ontario,
Bob H. does walk like that, exactly like that, but let's throw him out of the picture for now. How can you say that the walk can't be exactly replicated? How many people have tried to replicate it? Seriously, how many? Maybe 3 at the most? IMO most scientists, and people in general, instantly recognize Patty as a bloke in a suit and dismiss the PGF. Why should these people try to match the walk when the whole thing is such an obvious hoax? By the way, APES DON'T SWING THEIR ARMS. And please, please don't get swayed by Sweaty's nonsense regarding limb proportions. The bloke in the suit is wearing shoulder pads, which add nearly 6" to what looks like his arms. Plus his fingers are most likely not all the way into the gloves, making the arms look even longer. It really is just that simple. |
__________________
Normal in a weird way. |
|
27th June 2012, 01:15 PM | #8565 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 21,423
|
The walk is easily replicated. It's been done enough.
There are plenty of contemporaneous suit examples, and the PGF suit isn't that good, anyway. How are you getting limb proportions from a suit? You can keep repeating this stuff all you want, it won't make it accurate, and we will keep on posting responses. |
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
|
27th June 2012, 03:06 PM | #8566 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 307
|
|
27th June 2012, 04:49 PM | #8567 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,783
|
Not every aspect is possible to replicate at once.
If it wasn't "that good" we wouldn't even be discussing this right now. It's still the greatest Bigfoot video that's publicly available right now, regardless of whether it's actually hoaxed. Putting the skeletal overlay of a typical human on Patty can show how problematic it is getting a human to look like her in a suit. My personal opinion is a hoax from the 60's would be way worse than a hoax that can be done today. Yet this one is better. |
27th June 2012, 05:06 PM | #8568 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 21,423
|
That's all been hashed out here so many times and so many ways...
Skeletal overlay? We're tired of skeletal overlays. We've seen so many, and talked about them so much, we're sick of them. All you are doing is continuing an endless line of repetitive claims. It's as if there is a school for footers, and every six months a new graduate comes over here to tell us what for... And we get to hear the same things over again, as if they were just discovered... |
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
|
27th June 2012, 05:09 PM | #8569 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Inland NW
Posts: 4,942
|
|
__________________
Normal in a weird way. |
|
27th June 2012, 05:22 PM | #8570 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 343
|
|
27th June 2012, 05:56 PM | #8571 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,783
|
I would at the very least like to see a replication of the "suit", but unfortunately I might be asking for too much
Once that's done, we can move to the even harder step of someone actually wearing it and looking like Patty. The final step would be getting someone to walk like her in that suit. And if only technology that was available in the 60's is to be used, I guess you could say it's a truly impossible task. |
27th June 2012, 06:47 PM | #8572 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 21,423
|
Unfortunately, only believers are really interested in seeing the suit "replicated", and they seem unwilling to mount even a cursory effort.
Only believers demand a suit replication. They never seem willing to take the time and effort on behalf of their own cause, though. They always demand that others do it. Despite making and spending lots of dough for the cause. Us science based folks know the burden is not on us, and we can just sit back and await evidence, and evaluate it as it arrives, or doesn't. We can see the suit in the film. We don't need to have it replicated. We know that science and time are firmly on our side. We know that a suit replication, even if successful, would be fruitless in the face of old dog eared beliefs. |
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
|
27th June 2012, 06:55 PM | #8573 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 21,423
|
Believers have already made it clear that even if the Patty suit were actually found, making the PGF, and the real beginnings of mainstream bigfoot a hoax, it wouldn't change their mind about bigfoot being real.
|
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
|
27th June 2012, 07:35 PM | #8574 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,783
|
|
27th June 2012, 07:42 PM | #8575 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 883
|
|
27th June 2012, 07:44 PM | #8576 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,783
|
The original "suit" being found would certainly lay this mystery to rest once and for all whether some believers like it or not.
|
27th June 2012, 07:51 PM | #8577 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 883
|
and again !
|
27th June 2012, 07:56 PM | #8578 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,962
|
Yeah because you know, the fact bigfoot doesnt exist, and the fact the actor "came out" and there have been folks like myself that have found proof of the hoax in the film itself. None of that matters. Gimlin would never lie! lol... The true believers want so bad for this to be real. They need it to help support their baseless claims. Even "if" a suit is found and produced that is most likely the one used in the film, the excuses will still come. Just as they did when the actor came clean. The only mystery here is what drives the believers to support such a fantasy. |
27th June 2012, 08:00 PM | #8579 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 343
|
Can you prove that your method is valid? Choose any suit-based special effect from the 60s. Let's say King Kong vs Godzilla; pick either suit. Replicate the suit exactly, then find someone to meticulously replicate the movements of the suit actor in the film. This should be easier than replicating the PGF, because we have considerably more footage of the suits and of a higher quality.
When you've completed that task to the point that you can exactly duplicate what's seen on film, we'll accept that your proposed methodology is valid and we'll get right to work on that Patty suit. If you can't complete that simple task, we must assume that they've been lying to us that special effects were used in that film and it depicts an actual giant ape and an actual giant radioactive lizard thing, right? No? |
27th June 2012, 08:01 PM | #8580 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 883
|
The driving factors involve age, media saturation, the internet, the inability to do their own self examination of this topic and take the time to learn, and the lack of critical thinking skills. Hard to get by the combination of all of those things .
|
27th June 2012, 08:05 PM | #8581 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 21,423
|
I have no interest in replicating the suit, or seeing the suit replicated.
I wouldn't spend a dime on my own, and I wouldn't donate a dime for such a project. If you told me you could duplicate the suit perfectly, and demonstrated that you could do so, I probably still wouldn't give you a dime to help. It would be wasted money and effort. And I think if bigfoot were real, it would be a very cool thing. But it isn't. |
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
|
27th June 2012, 09:06 PM | #8582 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Inland NW
Posts: 4,942
|
Ontario,
Post #8569. Let's see the overlay. IOW, put up or shut up. |
__________________
Normal in a weird way. |
|
27th June 2012, 09:50 PM | #8583 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,216
|
It is some sort of attention seeking.
The posters at the BFF have made it clear that neither the suit nor a reproduction nor a confession from Gimlin would convince them. I believe them. They are totally committed to this foolishness; will never admit the unreality. With the utter failure of the DNA end of things, they will cling even harder to the PGF. Of course, Munns is as hard core as any of them. So they will cling to each other. |
__________________
"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!" --Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story." "The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot |
|
27th June 2012, 09:54 PM | #8584 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,314
|
Leroy Blevins did it. On his first try. Having never made anything in those kinds of trades. He's of modest IQ, education, and abilities. So modest, in fact, that is is humorous how melodramatic you are being for how impossible it is.
Quote:
|
27th June 2012, 09:56 PM | #8585 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 883
|
|
27th June 2012, 10:02 PM | #8586 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,783
|
|
27th June 2012, 11:05 PM | #8587 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 307
|
|
28th June 2012, 06:09 AM | #8588 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Inland NW
Posts: 4,942
|
As I am Bigfoot stated, Bob H. has 'confessed' numerous times but you've told us that you <paraphrasing> consider him to be a vile person <paraphrasing> so you won't accept his confession.
Now you say that a confession from him is enough to convince you that Patty isn't a real bigfoot. Care to clear that one up for us or shall we just accept Attorney Tom's theory? |
__________________
Normal in a weird way. |
|
28th June 2012, 06:17 AM | #8589 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Inland NW
Posts: 4,942
|
Double post.
|
__________________
Normal in a weird way. |
|
28th June 2012, 06:32 AM | #8590 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oklahoma, USA
Posts: 5,147
|
Ontario, here's some admittedly unsolicited advice.
This is the JREF, not the BFF. The BFF is a place where people come together in an attempt to "learn more" about something they believe to be true, but the truth of which has not been unambiguously established for us great, unwashed muggles. For many people and most threads at the BFF, logic and critical thinking are suspended because the conversations so often begin with the premise that the danged things exist in the first place. Here it's different. The focus is actually on the logic and the critical thinking. If some phenomenon has not been unambiguously established, then application of logic and critical thinking dictates that the phenomenon does not exist. All proponents need to do to prove bigfoot is real is produce a piece of a bigfoot. This has been done at least 1.3 million times already with every species that has been described since formal systematics began in the mid-18th Century. It's easy. It's not extraordinary evidence that's needed - it's the most mundane evidence provided in biology. It is possible for a bigfoot proponent to engage in lively and mature debate with skeptics here on the JREF, but as soon as that proponent makes a leap for which the evidence is wanting the proverbial hammer will come down. Nothing is taken for granted. You must DO YOUR HOMEWORK before attempting to mix it up here. Absent that, your statements will be insultingly naive and your reception will be cool. |
28th June 2012, 06:38 AM | #8591 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,548
|
Originally Posted by Ontario Sasquatch
The gorilla costume will become a bigfoot? Or you will understand, acknowledge that it was just another footer bit of nonsense you took for real? |
__________________
Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me: Together we can find the cure Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too… |
|
28th June 2012, 07:08 AM | #8592 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,216
|
|
__________________
"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!" --Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story." "The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot |
|
28th June 2012, 09:43 AM | #8593 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,783
|
Nice try, but a confession as in something BobH and BobG and both agree on. Anyone can "confess".
|
28th June 2012, 09:49 AM | #8594 |
Sorcerer Supreme
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 7,905
|
OS, here are two stills from the 1984 movie Greystoke. The apes are actors in suits designed by effects artist Rick Baker in 1982. The actors trained for weeks to learn how to mimic wild chimpanzees.
I post these to show you: 1) proportions can be distorted inside a suit; 2) the illusions of natural-looking skin, hair, musculature and "inhuman movement" are well within the range of human technical capability; and 3) make-up technicians can create -- and have created! -- ape suits more lifelike and convincing than "Patty". If your objection becomes: "But that was 15 years after the PGF; no one could have made that in 1967!", then please look forward to my next post here. |
__________________
"I'm 'willing to admit' any fact that can be shown to be evidential and certain." -- Vortigern99 "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." -- Jimi Hendrix |
|
28th June 2012, 09:55 AM | #8595 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,783
|
Those are really good costumes and I think you have a good point except some proportions are impossible to distort with a suit. Bill Munns pointed a lot of them out in one of his videos for his report.
|
28th June 2012, 10:20 AM | #8596 |
Sorcerer Supreme
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 7,905
|
The two pics below demolish the claim that materials and techniques for a convincing ape-man suit were not available in 1967.
The "Dawn of Man" sequence in 2001: A Space Odyssey was filmed in September, 1967 -- one month before the PG film was shot. Source. |
__________________
"I'm 'willing to admit' any fact that can be shown to be evidential and certain." -- Vortigern99 "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." -- Jimi Hendrix |
|
28th June 2012, 10:56 AM | #8597 |
Agave Wine Connoisseur
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 19,277
|
|
__________________
Maybe later.... |
|
28th June 2012, 11:09 AM | #8598 |
Sorcerer Supreme
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 7,905
|
Sure, but the claim is moot when we have 1967 suits and prosthetics of a superb quality staring us in the face.
We may ignore the claim that Patty is convincing without argumentation, because 1) it's subjective and non-evidential; and 2) we have highly accurate and lifelike ape-man costumes created the same year as "Patty". |
__________________
"I'm 'willing to admit' any fact that can be shown to be evidential and certain." -- Vortigern99 "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." -- Jimi Hendrix |
|
28th June 2012, 12:09 PM | #8599 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oklahoma, USA
Posts: 5,147
|
tarzanweischapter7a.jpg
This apeman is from a Tarzan movie I think from 1936. It's got realistic hair, muscle definition, and inhuman limb proportions. So at least 30 years before the PGF, Hollywood was able to make ape suits that blow "Patty" out of the water. What else you got, Ontario? |
28th June 2012, 12:15 PM | #8600 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,216
|
|
__________________
"Take the children, but LEAVE ME MY MONKEY!" --Dewey Cox, in "Walk Hard: the Dewey Cox Story." "The main skill of bigfoot investigators is finding ways to deny the obvious." --DFoot |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|