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Tags Washington DC issues , Washington DC politics

View Poll Results: Should DC get Statehood?
Yes. 60 84.51%
No. 11 15.49%
Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 30th June 2020, 08:42 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Because I have the position that states are sovereign, I'm indifferent to the urban/rural distribution of Senate votes.
Thanks for showing that I was correct not to bother.
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:45 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Thanks for showing that I was correct not to bother.
The extent you want to defend a claim from challenge is always up to you. If you want to focus on people that disagree with you, that is an understandable position.
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Old 30th June 2020, 08:57 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The extent you want to defend a claim from challenge is always up to you. If you want to focus on people that disagree with you, that is an understandable position.
I made no claim that requires me to show the exact shift in power towards rural voters in every state. If that's something you want to see, you have everything you need to figure it out.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:13 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We need to stop calling that "Bobbed" and start calling "Most all arguments these days."
I have a morbidly fascinating fantasy in which a Karen, indignant at a customer service failure, summons a manager and the manager is Bob. The ensuing conversation would be absolutely incredible.
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:17 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I have a morbidly fascinating fantasy in which a Karen, indignant at a customer service failure, summons a manager and the manager is Bob. The ensuing conversation would be absolutely incredible.
https://i.pinimg.com/474x/77/9c/27/7...uperheroes.jpg
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:57 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I made no claim that requires me to show the exact shift in power towards rural voters in every state. If that's something you want to see, you have everything you need to figure it out.
I don't want to see it.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:05 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't want to see it.
No ****.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:17 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
No ****.
I don't see what has you bothered. You are making decent arguments and responding well to my comments. You are doing a good job! Keep it up!
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:21 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't see what has you bothered.
You wasting everyone's time with disingenuous requests for data you don't actually want to see.
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:38 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
You wasting everyone's time with disingenuous requests for data you don't actually want to see.
I will be starting a separate thread about this but I think I have provided a lot of candor that I ask questions for the purpose of examining things skeptically.
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Old 30th June 2020, 11:25 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm going to have to see the math on this. I don't have the calculation for every state, but here is a two state example.

California 95% urban, 39.5 million people, that means 2 million rural people.

Wyoming, 65% urban, 0.6 million people, that mean 0.2 million rural.

It would take an extremely large increase in Wyoming voter power to offset small California dilution for rural voters to come out ahead.
Here's an example of someone unencumbered by reality.

"According to my calculations [punches in some numbers]... I died five years ago. Hmmph. That's kinda surprising."

"Well, you seem very much alive. Perhaps you made a mistake in your calculations."

"It might seem that way, but we have to trust the data wherever it takes us!"

Fom what I've seen, "urban" areas are typically classified as having more than 500,000 people, at least by political scientists who write about the urban/rural divide. Rural areas are classified as having fewer than 10,000 people. Between you have suburban and exurban (and the differences there are not matters of population but surrounding communities).

None of these terms are precise. Many people are surprised to learn Miami is not a top 30 city in terms of population, much less top 10. Fresno has more people. But Miami is also tiny in terms of area, so it's built-up. Population density matters. Cheyenne is not densely populated, which is why your metric is, ah, rather worthless.
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Old 30th June 2020, 11:26 AM   #292
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Don't mention the mathematical odds of dying. It gives me flashbacks.
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Old 30th June 2020, 11:30 AM   #293
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American "urban" is weird anyway. We have a lot of big cities, but oddly very few densly populated urban cores and our cities to spread out more and there is less demarcation between where the city and suburbs start.

Our biggest city only has about 8 million people in it, and after New York, LA, and Chicago even that number starts dropping fast. Our 5th largest city has under 2 million and you can't get out of top 10 before the number of people in each city drops below a million.

Meanwhile in China the 50th largest city has over 2 million people. In India the 45th largest city has over a million.

I live in the 11th most populated city in the country and it feels like I live in a medium sized city or like the suburb of it because Jacksonville is goddamn massive.
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Old 30th June 2020, 11:31 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Here's an example of someone unencumbered by reality.

"According to my calculations [punches in some numbers]... I died five years ago. Hmmph. That's kinda surprising."

"Well, you seem very much alive. Perhaps you made a mistake in your calculations."

"It might seem that way, but we have to trust the data wherever it takes us!"

Fom what I've seen, "urban" areas are typically classified as having more than 500,000 people, at least by political scientists who write about the urban/rural divide. Rural areas are classified as having fewer than 10,000 people. Between you have suburban and exurban (and the differences there are not matters of population but surrounding communities).

None of these terms are precise. Many people are surprised to learn Miami is not a top 30 city in terms of population, much less top 10. Fresno has more people. But Miami is also tiny in terms of area, so it's built-up. Population density matters. Cheyenne is not densely populated, which is why your metric is, ah, rather worthless.
I see urban as areas of 2,500 or more
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Old 30th June 2020, 11:57 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Forgive me for responding to what you said.


What is "the balance"? My problem with the Senate is that New York has ~6% of the country's population and 2% of the votes in the Senate. California has ~12% and 2% of the vote. That doesn't change with Wyoming DC. It only reduces the absurdity of Wyoming getting 2% of the vote with less than 0.2% of the population. Now they'd have 0.5% of the population! The upshot would be that everyone would point to Vermont instead of Wyoming to illustrate the absurdity of the least populous state getting the same number of votes as the most.

But these ratios aren't really why this is a problem--the systematic bias in favor of the demographics that live in depopulated areas is. Admission of DC reduces that imbalance, improves the situation by shifting power slightly back towards urban voters, makes the affirmative-action-for-the-white-Christian-majority problem slightly less bad.

But what's the relevance? Attaching DC to Maryland is not a reasonable option. Attaching DC to Wyoming is just not even worth an eye roll. You're left with a choice between giving DC disproportionate power in the Senate (which 32 other states currently enjoy), or giving them no representation at all.


No, I'm saying DC residents deserve representation, that statehood is the only reasonable path forward, and I'm declining to lay the malignant design of the Senate at their feet, because it has nothing to do with them.
I just read this entire thread (work is slow.)

It seems that a few on here have a problem with the system itself. The system itself is what creates the disproportional representation.

If that's disproportional representation is a problem, then it is a problem created by the Constitution.
For better or worse, this is the system the US has.

And...the Senate is supposed to represent the states; all states being equal while the House represents the people; hence proportional representation. (But I'm sure you know all of this.)
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:05 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
And...the Senate is supposed to represent the states; all states being equal while the House represents the people; hence proportional representation. (But I'm sure you know all of this.)
States aren't things. You can't "represent" arbitrary groupings and still be a fair system.

570,000 people live in Wyoming. Roughly the same number live in the city of Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Give me an actual reason, one that doesn't amount to "Well the system says so" why those 570,000 people spread out over 97,000 square miles of Wyoming and 570,000 people crammed into 188 square mile of Albuquerque should have different political power.

You can't even play the "Oh well you see the states are these quasi-independent countries that all came together and blah blah blah" with Wyoming. It wasn't a founding colony. It's just a square. There's not even like any rivers or other geographical landmarks that separate it from the other square states that surround it. It's just grid-lines on a map. It's not special.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:06 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
States aren't things. You can't "represent" arbitrary groupings and still be a fair system.

570,000 people live in Wyoming. Roughly the same number live in the city of Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Give me an actual reason, one that doesn't amount to "Well the system says so" why those 570,000 people spread out over 97,000 square miles of Wyoming and 570,000 people crammed into 188 square mile of Albuquerque should have different political power.

You can't even play the "Oh well you see the states are these quasi-independent countries that all came together and blah blah blah" with Wyoming. It wasn't a founding colony. It's just a square. There's not even like any rivers or other geographical landmarks that separate it from the other square states that surround it. It's just grid-lines on a map. It's not special.
The "system states so" is the reason.

And what do you have against squares?!
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:10 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
The "system states so" is the reason.
Not a valid one. And I've heard all the "We have to protect this from that" excuses and they are all nonsense.

Quote:
And what do you have against squares?!
So you don't start pearl clutching I don't have anything against Wyoming. I'm just using it as an example. Those 570,000 people who live there deserve the exact same political power as the 570,000 people who live in Albuquerque or the 570,000 who live in a few blocks of Manhattan.

No more, no less.

They aren't special because they are spread out and a line on a map got drawn around them.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:17 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
I just read this entire thread (work is slow.)

It seems that a few on here have a problem with the system itself. The system itself is what creates the disproportional representation.

If that's disproportional representation is a problem, then it is a problem created by the Constitution.
For better or worse, this is the system the US has.

And...the Senate is supposed to represent the states; all states being equal while the House represents the people; hence proportional representation. (But I'm sure you know all of this.)
Except it doesn't. And just because this is the system the US has does not mean it is right and shouldn't be changed. We now have a democracy where the "minority" rules.

We can begin to remedy the injustice by making DC and PR States.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:22 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
States aren't things. You can't "represent" arbitrary groupings and still be a fair system.

570,000 people live in Wyoming. Roughly the same number live in the city of Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Give me an actual reason, one that doesn't amount to "Well the system says so" why those 570,000 people spread out over 97,000 square miles of Wyoming and 570,000 people crammed into 188 square mile of Albuquerque should have different political power.

You can't even play the "Oh well you see the states are these quasi-independent countries that all came together and blah blah blah" with Wyoming. It wasn't a founding colony. It's just a square. There's not even like any rivers or other geographical landmarks that separate it from the other square states that surround it. It's just grid-lines on a map. It's not special.
I think the fact that it is a state defined by gridlines, rather than the various weird reasons eastern colonies were shaped, is special.

Quote:
better, greater, or otherwise different from what is usual.
It is otherwise different from what is usual because only a few states are structured that way. I would be more inclined to give them extra benefits for being so special before I thought of them as not special.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:26 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Except it doesn't. And just because this is the system the US has does not mean it is right and shouldn't be changed. We now have a democracy where the "minority" rules.

We can begin to remedy the injustice by making DC and PR States.
Never said it was a good system nor a bad one.

It is what it is.

And, we all know the Constitution was an attempt at making a more perfect union. An attempt. Which is why Constitution can be amended because the founding fathers knew they didn't score 100% on their test, they didn't write the rules for a perfect union just a more perfect one, their goals against average wasn't 0.00%...Its one of those "don't hate the player, hate the game" or whatever that saying is.

And I'm all for DC and PR becoming states.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:28 PM   #302
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Yeah let the first Democrat win the EC and not the popular vote or a bunch of rural areas turn Blue and see the whole "Well whatcha gonna do, that's the system" stuff change real fast.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:34 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
Never said it was a good system nor a bad one.

It is what it is.

And, we all know the Constitution was an attempt at making a more perfect union. An attempt. Which is why Constitution can be amended because the founding fathers knew they didn't score 100% on their test, they didn't write the rules for a perfect union just a more perfect one, their goals against average wasn't 0.00%...Its one of those "don't hate the player, hate the game" or whatever that saying is.

And I'm all for DC and PR becoming states.
Except it can't really be changed unless there is almost total unanimity.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:35 PM   #304
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"We keep asking Peter if robbing Peter to pay Paul is fair and Peter keeps saying yes so our hands are tied."
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:53 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I see urban as areas of 2,500 or more
Bob, if you think someone who is 5'5" is a "tall" human being while the vast majority of your fellow citizens say, "No, tall is over six foot," then what they consider tall is, ahem, what's considered tall. You can argue that through human history most people were under 5'5" but none of that **** matters.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:57 PM   #306
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I see plenty of people try to shut down discussions by demanding the discussion stop while they argue about how many legs a dog has if you call a tail a leg, but Bob is the only one who does it when the topic is the pinch hitter rule in baseball and nobody is talking about dogs or tails.
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Old 30th June 2020, 01:03 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Bob, if you think someone who is 5'5" is a "tall" human being while the vast majority of your fellow citizens say, "No, tall is over six foot," then what they consider tall is, ahem, what's considered tall. You can argue that through human history most people were under 5'5" but none of that **** matters.
That seems like the only thing that matters.
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Old 30th June 2020, 01:11 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
I just read this entire thread (work is slow.)

It seems that a few on here have a problem with the system itself. The system itself is what creates the disproportional representation.

If that's disproportional representation is a problem, then it is a problem created by the Constitution.
For better or worse, this is the system the US has.
Sure. You can't justify the system by appealing to the system, but this is why I don't consider it paramount to solve the malapportionment problem by not admitting any new states unless they are in the Goldilocks zone. It's a separate question; a flaw in the design of our system of government that needn't be solved in order to solve the non-representation problem.

Quote:
And...the Senate is supposed to represent the states; all states being equal while the House represents the people; hence proportional representation. (But I'm sure you know all of this.)
Right. The problem is...the states aren't equal. There are good, free-standing arguments for political equality among citizens, but equal representation of states in the Senate is just a brute force reality we have to deal with because some dead lawyers needed a compromise in order to form a more perfect union. No particularly good reason we should still be living with that compromise 230 years later. It is what it is, but what it is is unjust and undemocratic.
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Old 30th June 2020, 02:10 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Sure. You can't justify the system by appealing to the system, but this is why I don't consider it paramount to solve the malapportionment problem by not admitting any new states unless they are in the Goldilocks zone. It's a separate question; a flaw in the design of our system of government that needn't be solved in order to solve the non-representation problem.


Right. The problem is...the states aren't equal. There are good, free-standing arguments for political equality among citizens, but equal representation of states in the Senate is just a brute force reality we have to deal with because some dead lawyers needed a compromise in order to form a more perfect union. No particularly good reason we should still be living with that compromise 230 years later. It is what it is, but what it is is unjust and undemocratic.


Yes! Yes!! Yes!

If this country is ever going to be anything more than the tyranny of money, it must resolve this unbalance.
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