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Old 28th June 2020, 09:45 PM   #121
arthwollipot
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America really has intersections where there's a stop sign on every road?

Weird. No wonder you can't work out what to do. I'd have trouble with that too.
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Old 28th June 2020, 11:03 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
America really has intersections where there's a stop sign on every road?

Weird. No wonder you can't work out what to do. I'd have trouble with that too.
Yes indeed, four-way stops are pretty common. They work all right up until traffic gets heavy enough to blur the priority protocol, at which point they can become chaotic. Many such intersections have been replaced in recent years by rotaries, but that's a fairly recent trend.

Of course traffic lights can also work, but this can get pretty complex and result in delays, since it's difficult to allow turns across traffic and through traffic at the same time. So a four way intersection might end up requiring a 6-state traffic light, and that, in turn, makes for long waits. In some cases, the six are not always in the same order, so, for example, a cross traffic signal might only appear every other cycle. Or it might be combined with a through signal in one direction but not the other. It can get pretty complex.
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Old 29th June 2020, 01:20 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Yes indeed, four-way stops are pretty common. They work all right up until traffic gets heavy enough to blur the priority protocol, at which point they can become chaotic.

It's not so much the priority protocol, but that even with perfect driver performance four-way stops have terrible throughput when traffic is heavy. The city I live in used to be full of four-way stops that worked fine except immediately after a nearby school let out, when they would back up terribly. Those have mostly been replaced by roundabouts now and there are no significant backups. The city has also mandated that all new intersections must be roundabouts if feasible.
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Old 29th June 2020, 01:42 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
America really has intersections where there's a stop sign on every road?

Weird. No wonder you can't work out what to do. I'd have trouble with that too.
Germany is worse in that sense.

There are roads where no one has a stop sign, but everyone is expected to follow the four way stop sign rules.

That's a normal intersection (two roads crossing.) There are no stop signs, but you have to treat the intersection as though it had signs for a four way stop.

Some roads in Germany have a priority sign (that's a yellow diamond.) If the road you are on does not have a diamond, then you are supposed to stop at all intersections. If neither road has a diamond, then drivers on both roads have to stop and follow the four way stop rules.

This depends on everyone remembering if the stretch of road they are on has a diamond sign or not.

What usually happens is that locals know which intersections to stop for and that folks from out of town get cussed at for running non-existent stop signs.

The you get intersections where three or more roads intersect and nobody knows who has the right of way. Some folks drive through, some stop, some try to avoid accidents, and it usually turns into a *********** if more than two cars arrive at the intersection at the same time. Mix in the occasional bus, and it can make a trip to the grocery store very exciting.

---------

Traffic circles (roundabouts, whatever) are great - if you have the space to implement them.

There are several in my area where there's no room for them. High traffic streets, with houses and sidewalks built right up to the street. There were intersections with stop signs there for decades.

The federal government gave out money to communities that installed roundabouts while improving the streets, so lots of smaller communities installed roubdabouts all over the place.

Now we've got "roubdabouts" that consist of roundabout signage, a normal intersection, and manhole-cover-sized roundabout center that every one just drives over. They are treated as multi-way stops because there's only room for one vehicle in the "roundabout" and it certainly can't go around the roundabout.
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Old 29th June 2020, 01:58 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by MortFurd View Post
Germany is worse in that sense.

There are roads where no one has a stop sign, but everyone is expected to follow the four way stop sign rules.

That's a normal intersection (two roads crossing.) There are no stop signs, but you have to treat the intersection as though it had signs for a four way stop.

Some roads in Germany have a priority sign (that's a yellow diamond.) If the road you are on does not have a diamond, then you are supposed to stop at all intersections. If neither road has a diamond, then drivers on both roads have to stop and follow the four way stop rules.

This depends on everyone remembering if the stretch of road they are on has a diamond sign or not.

What usually happens is that locals know which intersections to stop for and that folks from out of town get cussed at for running non-existent stop signs.

The you get intersections where three or more roads intersect and nobody knows who has the right of way. Some folks drive through, some stop, some try to avoid accidents, and it usually turns into a *********** if more than two cars arrive at the intersection at the same time. Mix in the occasional bus, and it can make a trip to the grocery store very exciting.
The UK has managed to mark just about every intersection in town or country to show the priorities, with one road taking precedence over the smaller one, or the lower arm of a tee giving way to the top of the tee.
Quote:
---------

Traffic circles (roundabouts, whatever) are great - if you have the space to implement them.

There are several in my area where there's no room for them. High traffic streets, with houses and sidewalks built right up to the street. There were intersections with stop signs there for decades.

The federal government gave out money to communities that installed roundabouts while improving the streets, so lots of smaller communities installed roubdabouts all over the place.

Now we've got "roubdabouts" that consist of roundabout signage, a normal intersection, and manhole-cover-sized roundabout center that every one just drives over. They are treated as multi-way stops because there's only room for one vehicle in the "roundabout" and it certainly can't go around the roundabout.
Yep, the "mini roundabout" in the UK which has the same give way to the right rule (left in Germany) as the larger roundabouts.
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Old 29th June 2020, 06:35 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
It's not so much the priority protocol, but that even with perfect driver performance four-way stops have terrible throughput when traffic is heavy. The city I live in used to be full of four-way stops that worked fine except immediately after a nearby school let out, when they would back up terribly. Those have mostly been replaced by roundabouts now and there are no significant backups. The city has also mandated that all new intersections must be roundabouts if feasible.
Yes, that's also true. Even when things are working fairly well, everyone must stop without regard to whether other traffic is present, and must figure out the priority. A number of intersections around here which sort of worked, but were clumsy, have been replaced with roundabouts.
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Old 29th June 2020, 12:48 PM   #127
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St. Louis is noted for it’s forest of stop signs, and one of the prime reasons I stopped driving manual transmissions years ago....
The deal is that in the city a stop sign requires an act of the legislature... In effect, a law must be passed. So, one of the ways an shiny, newly-elected city alderman establishes their bona fides is to have a stop sign installed.... Usually because his constituents are complaining about traffic in their area.
No input from the Department of Transportation.... It’s entirely a matter for the legislators.

At least in the county, it’s more of a matter of the County Council submitting a request, and then Highways & Traffic will go out and do a study at the intersection as to traffic volume and such.
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Old 29th June 2020, 01:33 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
Roundabouts are good for the environment, as the traffic is more likely to keep moving.

Can't see YTs at work, but there is this about roundabouts in the US:
https://www.citylab.com/transportati...et-map/408598/

On the subject of keeping traffic moving, always try to keep a large gap between you and the vehicle in front on busy roads:
http://www.amasci.com/amateur/traffic/traffic1.html
I didn't used to be a fan of roundabouts. But then I saw two traffic lights replaced with roundabouts in an area that was chronically congested when there were traffic lights become wonderfully uncongested after the roundabouts were installed.
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Old 30th June 2020, 01:11 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I didn't used to be a fan of roundabouts. But then I saw two traffic lights replaced with roundabouts in an area that was chronically congested when there were traffic lights become wonderfully uncongested after the roundabouts were installed.
Whereas the most inefficient intersection control is - police.

A recent trip to get out of the CBD of the capital city here was hindered by multiple intersections being “controlled” by police. There was roadworks, but they were working up to 3 city blocks either side of it.

Prioritised traffic lights are enough of a fag, but still maintain traffic flow better than some fizzed calling it by eye. What you end up with is a much longer prioritisation of the main flow that backs up the cross traffic.
In this case, backed up into the roadworks and then down the off ramp and jammed up the motorway.

Usually in peak hour traffic (at least in the 8 years I’ve been doing the trip) the motorway still manages to keep flowing.
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Old 30th June 2020, 01:27 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
It's not so much the priority protocol, but that even with perfect driver performance four-way stops have terrible throughput when traffic is heavy. The city I live in used to be full of four-way stops that worked fine except immediately after a nearby school let out, when they would back up terribly. Those have mostly been replaced by roundabouts now and there are no significant backups. The city has also mandated that all new intersections must be roundabouts if feasible.
What I liked about the time we still went for holidays to the UK is that I very rarely saw any true four-way crossings there.

Either there was a crossing, but one of the roads had priority, so the other two would have to wait (traffic lights were used as well of course). Or there was a roundabout (very handy for us lowly tourists, when trying to combat the wrongway driving they do over there ). Alternatively I saw a lot of say offset four way crossings, where two of the side roads would attach to the main road just offset to each other, in effect turning the four way crossing essentially into two T-crossings, with the main road usually also having right of way.

With all the driving on the wrong part of the road they do over there and of course the whole question of them being splitters (), this I liked a lot and would like to see this copied in more places (that and the wall contacts with individual fuses and switches they have over there. That's brilliant as well.)
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Old 2nd July 2020, 02:48 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by MortFurd View Post
Germany is worse in that sense.

There are roads where no one has a stop sign, but everyone is expected to follow the four way stop sign rules.

That's a normal intersection (two roads crossing.) There are no stop signs, but you have to treat the intersection as though it had signs for a four way stop.

Some roads in Germany have a priority sign (that's a yellow diamond.) If the road you are on does not have a diamond, then you are supposed to stop at all intersections. If neither road has a diamond, then drivers on both roads have to stop and follow the four way stop rules.

This depends on everyone remembering if the stretch of road they are on has a diamond sign or not.
I don't think that's quite right. If there are no signs, you don't have to stop, but you do have to give way to someone coming from your right. In residential areas it's sort of ok (you just always watch out for someone coming from your right). But it is pretty silly that on a main road, every single intersection has signs (yellow diamonds on the main road and give way or stop signs on the side streets) to indicate something that should be common sense! (I *think* it's also shown by the road markings, as in the UK.)
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Old 2nd July 2020, 06:11 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Meridian View Post
I don't think that's quite right. If there are no signs, you don't have to stop, but you do have to give way to someone coming from your right. In residential areas it's sort of ok (you just always watch out for someone coming from your right). But it is pretty silly that on a main road, every single intersection has signs (yellow diamonds on the main road and give way or stop signs on the side streets) to indicate something that should be common sense! (I *think* it's also shown by the road markings, as in the UK.)
Common sense doesn't cut it in court cases. The UK has managed to get at least road markings and usually give way or stop signs for the minor road at pretty much every intersection in the country, from urban jungle to the smallest country lanes.

There is thus no excuse, even if the two roads look exactly the same.

Much preferable to some mess of differing rules of precedence depending on the time of day and the phase of the moon and what the PM had for dinner and the colour puce.

I don't know if the French have finally got rid of the "Priorite a Droit" rule which allowed a French farmer in a 2CV carrying 50 chickens and a goat to blunder out of a side road in front of a 40 ton semi loaded with gas on a main autoroute.
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