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Tags atheism , China incidents , China issues , christian persecution , gosateizm

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Old 21st September 2018, 09:51 AM   #761
dann
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Sorry, but that will not work.

I told 'The Big Dog' some time ago that if his god was really so powerful, then his god would be able to protect his own followers.

And then 'The Big Dog' responded with some inane quote from St. Thomas Aquinas about how oppressed people are blessed by god.

Therefore, this god 'The Big Dog' worships so much will not do anything to help his followers when his followers are being repressed by non-followers, however the followers will still be blessed by his god all the same.

Yes, I know, this line of logic sure does not make any sense to me either.

I think it means that TBD is drowning, and only TBD is to blame:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st September 2018, 10:21 AM   #762
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I think it means that TBD is drowning, and only TBD is to blame:
Well TBD said it's all in hand - "He already has" - so nothing to worry about.


I assume that as I post, the Chinese Atheists are rebuilding churches!
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Old 21st September 2018, 11:39 AM   #763
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Why would the Christian god protect the Muslims? or vice versa if you prefer?
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Old 21st September 2018, 12:09 PM   #764
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Why would the Christian god protect the Muslims? or vice versa if you prefer?
I really do not know why god would do what a god does.

However, I do know that 'The Big Dog' often adjusts the interpretations of his fairy book in order to justify his various ideals about his god.

Shucks! With so many constant adjustments being made to something that is a supposedly supreme being by someone who is a mere human writing internet posts, then it makes one believe that there was never a supreme being to begin with.
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Old 21st September 2018, 01:13 PM   #765
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
Surely the answer is simple.

Just pray for God to stop the Chinese Government - and there you go...

After all, isn't there a parallel in the OT?

God had been "hardening Pharoah's heart" for a while, but eventually he got him to release the Israelites.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post

You ask a serious question and The Big Dog answers with a tired old joke.
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Old 21st September 2018, 01:20 PM   #766
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Sorry, but that will not work.

I told 'The Big Dog' some time ago that if his god was really so powerful, then his god would be able to protect his own followers.

And then 'The Big Dog' responded with some inane quote from St. Thomas Aquinas about how oppressed people are blessed by god.

Therefore, this god 'The Big Dog' worships so much will not do anything to help his followers when his followers are being repressed by non-followers, however the followers will still be blessed by his god all the same.

Yes, I know, this line of logic sure does not make any sense to me either.

Boy this sounds familiar! Mother Teresa was on about suffering being a blessing wasn't she? Same crap with a slightly different slant. I can do without this god's blessing.
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Old 21st September 2018, 02:20 PM   #767
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
Well yeah, The point was to make an equally exaggerated and unfounded statement.

I think I needed to add scare quotes and italicised words.
Yeah, it was pretty clear, I just like to point out that there is a solid argument that the worst people in the Catholic Church weren't the molesters, they were the people who kept them in the game.
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Old 21st September 2018, 02:25 PM   #768
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
He already has
Oh good. That's a solid win for JC and Mo.
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Old 21st September 2018, 02:33 PM   #769
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Quote:
China’s Communist Party, which is said to have some 90 million members, is officially atheist; but, increasingly, especially in recent years, the number of religious believers in its ranks has grown.
That fact has created worrying impacts on religious human rights as we have seen:

Quote:
More importantly, religious leaders and scholars note, was the shift in March to put the State Administration for Religious Affairs - a government office - back under the control of the Communist Party’s United Front Work Department....

“When the party is in charge of religious affairs, it can use all types of means to exert control, and its power to suppress is unprecedented,” Jin said.

Jin said this type of expansive control over religion will become a hallmark of Xi’s leadership.

“All religions, not only Christians but Buddhists, Catholics and Muslims, will all have to deal with the special challenges of this new era,” he said.
So the Atheist party gains control of religious affairs, and immediately starts suppressing human rights.

here is the link
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Old 21st September 2018, 05:05 PM   #770
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Yeah, it was pretty clear, I just like to point out that there is a solid argument that the worst people in the Catholic Church weren't the molesters, they were the people who kept them in the game.
Fair enough.
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Old Yesterday, 01:58 AM   #771
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The links to the article was previously posted in this thread and are trivially easy for anyone who cared and were not just trying to score points.
You call it point-scoring, I cal it pointing out errors. Whatever. However, in any case, given that you started this thread with the intention of scoring points off atheists, and have spent most of the time since trying to score points off anyone who disagrees with you, you're not really in a position to complain.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post

Let me spoon feed you
Thanks. Let me return the favour.
Quote:
Chinese law requires religious believers to worship only in congregations registered with the authorities
Quote:
Anyone wishing to provide religious instruction or similar services online must apply by name and be judged morally fit and politically reliable, according to draft regulations posted online late Monday by the State Administration for Religious Affairs.

Organizations and schools that receive licenses can operate only on their internal networks that require users to be registered and are barred from seeking converts or distributing texts or other religious materials, the rules said.

They also impose tight limits on what can be said or posted, including a ban on criticism of the party's leadership and official religious policies, promoting religious participation by minors, and "using religion to ... overthrow the socialist system."
Your link supports your critics, not your own argument. The Chinese government is cracking down on organisations that threaten its control. State-approved religions are still legal, and still acceptable to the authorities. While they would like everyone to be atheist, they are still allowing religious beliefs and practices.
This is about totalitarianism, not about atheism versus religion.
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Old Yesterday, 02:10 AM   #772
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So the Atheist party gains control of religious affairs, and immediately starts suppressing human rights.

here is the link
What "Atheist Party"? Is that the official title of the ruling party of China, or did you just make that up?

And once again, you have posted a link that blows your own argument out of the water.
Quote:
The recent closure of one of Beijing's largest independent churches, and a crackdown on congregations elsewhere in China, are part of a broader effort to bring religion more fully under the ruling Communist Party's control, say Christian leaders, scholars and rights advocates.
You know how people keep telling you that this is about one-party rule, and not about atheism? Your link is saying exactly that.
Still not convinced? There's more:

Quote:
“When the party is in charge of religious affairs, it can use all types of means to exert control, and its power to suppress is unprecedented,” Jin said.

Jin said this type of expansive control over religion will become a hallmark of Xi’s leadership.
Religions will be controlled, not outlawed. If you disagree, please show anything in this or your other links, that says that religions will be outlawed. These are the actions of a ruthless autocracy trying to tighten its grip on its people.
This is a process that I condemn, as I condemn all human rights abuses, even those by atheists.
I note that you have gone quiet on the 'no atheists are condemning this' front. Perhaps, out of a sense of Christian charity and humility, you could go so far as to openly acknowledge that, at least in my case, you were wrong.
WWJD, TDB?
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Old Yesterday, 02:31 AM   #773
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It seems odd to not consider that this might be Xi Jingping consolidating power and suppressing any organization around which an opposition could form. He's doing the same thing in Tibet and Xinjang. Xi no long has term limits so he could be leader for life. He's consolidated power in the party so he's now making sure no external threat can grow. It's not the beliefs he cares about; it's the hierarchical organization unaccountable to him that Xi has a problem with.
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Old Yesterday, 07:12 AM   #774
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The Officially atheist CCP is bringing all religions under its direct control, and our correspondents would tell you that it has nothing to do with atheism. What frivolous claims the apologist are making at this point. There is obviously direct causation, and even the most hardcore apologist must concede that it is a concurrent cause.
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Old Yesterday, 07:23 AM   #775
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I would imagine Xi thinks people can believe personally whatever damn-fool thing they like. He just doesn't want them organizing around it.
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Old Yesterday, 07:57 AM   #776
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Xi would never tolerate actual Marxist atheists in China. And actual Marxist atheists would never tolerate the conditions of Chinese factory workers - no matter what they believe in.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Yesterday, 08:24 AM   #777
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Xi would never tolerate actual Marxist atheists in China. And actual Marxist atheists would never tolerate the conditions of Chinese factory workers - no matter what they believe in.
There was not a single word about religion/atheism/faith in that article at all.

Say, I am beginning to think that xi might be one of those buffet Marxists, not really interested in the economic side, but really gorging on the contempt for human rights/abuse of religious beliefs section.
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Old Yesterday, 08:52 AM   #778
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The Officially atheist CCP is bringing all religions under its direct control, and our correspondents would tell you that it has nothing to do with atheism. What frivolous claims the apologist are making at this point. There is obviously direct causation, and even the most hardcore apologist must concede that it is a concurrent cause.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/vatican...eto-1537613087

It does not have anything to do with atheism. It does have to do with stateism. The Chinese government only cares if your beliefs are a threat to the state.
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Old Yesterday, 09:27 AM   #779
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
There was not a single word about religion/atheism/faith in that article at all.

Say, I am beginning to think that xi might be one of those buffet Marxists, not really interested in the economic side, but really gorging on the contempt for human rights/abuse of religious beliefs section.

And what is a "buffet Marxist" supposed to be?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Yesterday, 09:33 AM   #780
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
https://www.wsj.com/articles/vatican...eto-1537613087

It does not have anything to do with atheism. It does have to do with stateism. The Chinese government only cares if your beliefs are a threat to the state.
Ugh. The Holy See should know better than to negotiate with terrorists.
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Old Yesterday, 10:33 AM   #781
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ugh. The Holy See should know better than to negotiate with terrorists.
If the Holy See was actually holy, then it would have done something decades ago about the many terrible cases of child sexual abuse that they allowed to occur.
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Old Yesterday, 11:29 AM   #782
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The Officially atheist CCP is bringing all religions under its direct control, and our correspondents would tell you that it has nothing to do with atheism. What frivolous claims the apologist are making at this point. There is obviously direct causation, and even the most hardcore apologist must concede that it is a concurrent cause.
No, as everyone who has posted- including you- has shown, this is about totalitarian control of threats to totalitarian rule.
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Old Yesterday, 11:44 AM   #783
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No, as everyone who has posted- including you- has shown, this is about totalitarian control of threats to totalitarian rule.
It is odd to see the level of denial of the atheist role in this. Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Xi, all hard core militant Marxist atheists.
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Old Yesterday, 01:30 PM   #784
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It is odd to see the level of denial of the atheist role in this. Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Xi, all hard core militant Marxist atheists.
Ok, so you're saying all christians also beat animals and keep children locked away? Odd.

I think I understand the christian agenda now, So another question, why did people of your faith plan and execute the events of 9/11?
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Old Yesterday, 02:51 PM   #785
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It is odd to see the level of denial of the atheist role in this. Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Xi, all hard core militant Marxist atheists.

No, I'll make another attempt to explain it to you:

Karl Marx went far beyond atheism. That God isn't real is a boring truism. What concerned him was why so many people nevertheless choose to believe in him. And he noticed that their belief in God comforts them.
So the next question is: Why do they want and need to be comforted?
And he noticed that the reason is their ****** lives: If you lead a fulfilling life, you don't ask yourself, what's the point of it all?
But when your life seems pointless and meaningless, and you can't find a solution to your problems in reality as it is, you start looking for an 'answer' beyond reality, it the realm of fantasy, in religion. You drown your sorrows, metaphorically, not in alcohol but in the 'opium of the people':

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions."

The obvious solution to the problem of religion is to solve the actual problems people have in this world, the 'vale of tears' that makes them want and need religion. It is pointless to ask believers to give up their delusions as long as their actual problems aren't solved:

"To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. "

Does that sound like the kind of guy who thinks that persecution of believers is the solution? Marx thought that people like you already have a hard time, and he certainly didn't want to make it any harder. On the contrary.

Do you remember the quotation from Capital about churches and monasteries being torn down and the monks joining the ranks of the proletariat? Did it seem to please him that this had happened? Or did he seem to pity the monks who found themselves in the very unenviable position of being forced to join the ranks of the proletariat, to find a way to make a living and having no way of doing so?

This is the difference between a Marxist and a hard-core atheist: We Marxists would rather discuss how to make the actual world a better place than nitpick inconsequential details and contradictions in terms in your Christian Bible. We find that endeavor very uninteresting.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Yesterday, 02:56 PM   #786
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, I'll make another attempt to explain it to you:

Karl Marx went far beyond atheism.
Wow, lotta words to, you know, agree with me.
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Old Yesterday, 06:59 PM   #787
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Wow, lotta words to, you know, agree with me.
You've already admitted you have your own doubts about religion. Will you lose your alleged morality if you lose your religion? Your tendency to lie is already rather severe. I'm not sure it could get worse. What is the threat of being spanked by a cosmic sky daddy keeping YOU from doing?

You claimed to have already addressed these two questions, but so far that looks like a lie.

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
You claim that atheism is responsible for the crimes committed in China. What is it about atheism that, in your opinion, might be giving rise to such behavior?

Why do you believe Chinese atheists are committing such atrocities when atheists in, for example, Norway are not?
Either answer the questions or provide a link to the post where you allegedly addressed them.
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Old Yesterday, 09:03 PM   #788
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Wow, lotta words to, you know, agree with me.
I don't think I've seen further off the rails. Ummm, whut?
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Old Yesterday, 11:12 PM   #789
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Wow, lotta words to, you know, agree with me.

So we agree that Marx didn't fear or hate Christians?! And that instead, he pitied them and wanted to improve their working conditions and lives in general so they no longer needed the comfort that they received from their imaginary God?!
Very much unlike what Xi et al are currently doing, which shows that their Marxism is only self-proclaimed when in reality they defend capitalism and its intolerable working conditions and oppress the kinds of religious movements that they fear may turn into some kind of opposition to their branch of capitalism and nationalism.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Today, 02:13 AM   #790
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Agreement? Was not the "atheist Marxist" Chinese government intending to crackdown any hint of religion in China? What about this, Big Brother Dog?
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatica...editorial.html
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Old Today, 05:19 AM   #791
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,622
The Vatican seems to embrace the Chinese oppressors - from David Mo's link above:

Quote:
The Pontiff also recognizes full communion to the last Chinese bishops ordained without pontifical mandate, with the obvious intent of assuring the normal unfolding of daily life in many Catholic communities, as confirmed by the simultaneous provision which establishes, north of the capital, a new diocese, the first in over 70 years.
L'Osservatore Romano: Holy See China Agreement - A Date in History (Vatican News, Sep. 22, 2018)

A date in hstory (Ossservatore Romano, Sep. 22, 2018)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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