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Old 17th August 2017, 09:48 AM   #81
Roboramma
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Because he's stated "The thread was about people far enough away from evidence/experience that they essentially must have faith in the credibility of a reporter."

So the kind of people you describe below aren't the people he's talking about.
I don't think many of those people actually exist.

How many people haven't seen footage of the moon landings, for instance?

There also seems to be a difference in kind of needing to have "faith in the credibility of a reporter" when we're talking about a few people reporting about something that they saw (like the people who landed on the moon coming back and telling us about it), and thousands, millions, or hundreds of millions of people having seen evidence of it first hand and that awareness having thus been immersed into our culture so that even those who haven't seen footage of the moon landings but are aware that it exists are relying on a sort of mass "reportage".

Again, the latter seems to be different in kind from the former, and discussing the two as though they were the same thing is not going to be very productive.
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Old 17th August 2017, 09:59 AM   #82
Bubba
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
The issue here, as others have pointed out, is that there are types of evidence other than first hand reports, that bear on the question of whether or not anyone has been to the moon, or indeed on other questions as well.

Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
The type of evidence seems irrelevant to Bubba's point.
Yes it seems irrelevant, perhaps due to misunderstanding the OP. Thank you.

To clarify, I'm referring (using 'remote/primitive' as example) to someone
whose 'evidence' is only the word of another person, such as chief or village elder/whomever. Trust and faith in a 'reporter'.


Some members seemed to grasp that before I elaborated, others seem not grasping it after my elaborating multiple times.

again

Quote:
Have you been to the moon?

If so, you'd not need to trust others reporting what becomes/became 'history'. Depending upon perspective, one person's 'history' can be like fake news to another. Losers vs victors writing it being a popular example.

Other than those who went to the moon, who has sufficient direct knowledge/experience to know they went to the moon? Rocket men and women, and other project staff would know.

But what of those further and furthest away from that perspective?

How far downstream in the information chain are those who must rely solely on trust in writers and reporters? Where in that chain does/must it become belief/faith? In terms of sophistication perhaps? Where are you on that info chain? How would others frame this question more simply?
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Old 17th August 2017, 10:06 AM   #83
Bubba
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Does it? Can you expand on that? Because it seems to me to be quite relevant.

I haven't been to the moon (first hand), nor have I had conversations with those who have (second hand)...



....Similarly there were many people present at the Apollo mission launches. They may not have direct evidence that those craft went to the moon, but they do have direct evidence that they existed, that they launched without exploding on the pad or shortly after takeoff, that the amount of fuel was enough to create the rather impressive display that they saw and to launch the craft at least as high as they were able to follow it with the naked eye. Those people, at least, while they didn't go to the moon, have access to first hand evidence that may not be conclusive but is quite meaningful.


A similar case could be made for those who worked on the project.

Those who worked on the project were acknowledged in the OP. Sorry if it wasnt made sufficiently clear, as follows:


Quote:
Have you been to the moon?

If so, you'd not need to trust others reporting what becomes/became 'history'. Depending upon perspective, one person's 'history' can be like fake news to another. Losers vs victors writing it being a popular example.

Other than those who went to the moon, who has sufficient direct knowledge/experience to know they went to the moon? Rocket men and women, and other project staff would know.

But what of those further and furthest away from that perspective?

How far downstream in the information chain are those who must rely solely on trust in writers and reporters?[/u] Where in that chain does/must it become belief/faith? In terms of sophistication perhaps? Where are you on that info chain? How would others frame this question more simply?


[/quote]
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Old 17th August 2017, 10:20 AM   #84
Bubba
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Quote:
Roboramma said:


I don't think many of those people actually exist.

How many people haven't seen footage of the moon landings, for instance?

Sorry if I didnt make it sufficiently clear, somewhere in this thread I acknowledged that back in Apollo's time, there would have been more people so far removed from experience/evidence in terms of relying on chief/elder word of mouth.

Remember this is not about Apollo. Knowledge of Apollo is merely one well known example of how people can know or have faith in reporting.

Another reason I used Apollo as an example is because Apollo has the bonus feature of the Apollo deniers. Ironically, they, with access to most or all Apollo evidence/experience do not believe it.

Anyway the last paragraph from the OP, below, is the issue and it could be applied to something other than Apollo.


Quote:
How far downstream in the information chain are those who must rely solely on trust in writers and reporters? Where in that chain does/must it become belief/faith? In terms of sophistication perhaps? Where are you on that info chain? How would others frame this question more simply?
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Old 17th August 2017, 10:22 AM   #85
Bubba
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I don't think many of those people actually exist.

How many people haven't seen footage of the moon landings, for instance?

There also seems to be a difference in kind of needing to have "faith in the credibility of a reporter" when we're talking about a few people reporting about something that they saw (like the people who landed on the moon coming back and telling us about it), and thousands, millions, or hundreds of millions of people having seen evidence of it first hand and that awareness having thus been immersed into our culture so that even those who haven't seen footage of the moon landings but are aware that it exists are relying on a sort of mass "reportage".

Again, the latter seems to be different in kind from the former, and discussing the two as though they were the same thing is not going to be very productive.

Thank you for getting it and responding to what this thread is about.
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Old 17th August 2017, 10:32 AM   #86
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Thank you for getting it and responding to what this thread is about.
The thread isn't about anything. Like I said yesterday, it just seems like you're dipping your toe into the bowl'o'bollocks and are looking for others to give you a reason not to stick both feet in.

Why else would you ask such a silly question, followed by another thread in which you ask whether a bloody magician could guess a star-sign correctly?

There's a local man who sits in the park without any shoes on, he stinks of pee, and he asks similar questions to anyone who'll give him the time of day.

I hope you're at least wearing shoes, Bubba.
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