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Tags astral projection , remote viewing

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Old 9th September 2017, 09:16 PM   #41
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The answer to the OP is yes, a properly conducted, well designed test under controlled conditions which had results that exceeded the pre-agreed success criteria would indeed provide evidence for the existence of astral projection. Just as properly conducted tests have provided evidence of everything from the wave nature of light to the Higgs Boson.

Sadly all such tests have so far yielded no positive results, so there is currently no evidence for astral projection.
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:31 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Would someone accurately reporting a series of digits after "seeing them" "out of body" prove that consciousness can exist independently of the body?

Let me guess: You just did it, but can't guess the Powerball numbers because reasons.

Two words: Pathological Credulity
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:32 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Because you have already agreed that your OP was "random musing" and have offered nothing else which we can actually discuss. You have offered nothing as evidence, ergo, you are just making stuff up including your anecdote about a so-called Astral Projector.

Just do a test - you have been given several protocols, so it should as you said yourself in an earlier post " Doesn't sound that hard"

Just do it. and satisfy yourself, then post the evidence here. It does not sound that hard because it is not that hard.

Norm
I think I've gotten what I wanted from this thread. There is a guy named Sam Parnia who's doing an experiment similar to this where he puts pictures I believe in various hospitals where dying patients who have out of body experiences from near death experiences are to see the picture and report back. I believe he's on his second or third project of this nature. In one of the previous studies there were only two people out of more than a thousand who had something resembling a near death experience but no was able to see the picture not that they couldn't, they just didn't. So he's doing it again.

As for doing a test; it seems like a worthwhile endeavor, but as of now I know no one who astral projects and it would be a bit of a hassle to find one and get them to do the test.
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:33 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I do not have much knowledge about how science is carried out so I might not be able to answer that to your satisfaction.

Wow, I'm so freaking surprised.
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:35 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The answer to the OP is yes, a properly conducted, well designed test under controlled conditions which had results that exceeded the pre-agreed success criteria would indeed provide evidence for the existence of astral projection. Just as properly conducted tests have provided evidence of everything from the wave nature of light to the Higgs Boson.

Sadly all such tests have so far yielded no positive results, so there is currently no evidence for astral projection.
Yes it may never happen. It's no big deal.
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:38 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
A team of researchers can pick the numbers and before the subject who has the out of body experience enters the building they place the numbers in a closed room, and they monitor that person as they make their way to the separate room from which they will "leave" their body all while someone watches them in that room the whole time from when they come in to when they "leave" their body and come back and report the number.

Why haven't this team of researchers published in a peer review scientific journal. and why haven't the results been reproduced by separate teams of researchers? It sounds like a shoo-in for a Nobel Prize.

Unless it's all ********.
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:38 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Let me guess: You just did it, but can't guess the Powerball numbers because reasons.

Two words: Pathological Credulity
Yes, I do tend to believe easily and maybe I'm biased toward the supernatural, everyone's different.
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:41 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Random musing.
That's a lie. You were blown out of the sky for this about a month ago.

At the time, you said you were Just Asking Questions. Around here, that's called JAQing off.
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:44 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Doesn't sound that hard
Why haven't you tried it? No friends?

You knew from before that you weren't going to find any pathologically credulous allies here.
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:47 PM   #50
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There's nothing wrong with asking questions, provided you are willing to accept the actual answers even if they turn out to be different to those you would have preferred.
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:48 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Why haven't this team of researchers published in a peer review scientific journal. and why haven't the results been reproduced by separate teams of researchers? It sounds like a shoo-on for a Nobel Prize.

Unless it's all ********.
Do you know that the soul doesn't exist? I don't know if the soul exists. It would be great if I could be agnostic and impartial about it but you don't really control being convinced of something. I don't know, it just seems like a flaw in human nature to me that people just don't remain agnostic about things they don't know.
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:48 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Yes, I do tend to believe easily and maybe I'm biased toward the supernatural, everyone's different.
Yes. Some people have a capacity for critical thinking. Others are superstitious, crystal-sucking woo-woos (no one at ISF, of course).
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:49 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Why haven't you tried it? No friends?

You knew from before that you weren't going to find any pathologically credulous allies here.
I don't know anyone who's willing to astral project for me, including friends.
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:51 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Why haven't you tried it? No friends?

You knew from before that you weren't going to find any pathologically credulous allies here.
I have difficulty achieving it and my friends aren't willing to do it.
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:53 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Do you know that the soul doesn't exist? I don't know if the soul exists. It would be great if I could be agnostic and impartial about it but you don't really control being convinced of something. I don't know, it just seems like a flaw in human nature to me that people just don't remain agnostic about things they don't know.
I have no belief about the existence of souls. That's the null hypothesis. If someone will give me solid evidence of these alleged souls I may change my position. Do you have any such evidence?

Didn't think so.
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:53 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Yes. Some people have a capacity for critical thinking. Others are superstitious, crystal-sucking woo-woos (no one at ISF, of course).
Haven't skeptics and believers been shown the same evidence for things and one believes and the other doesn't? I've been thinking these debates have more to do with the psychology of people than the facts, at least in some cases.
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:55 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I don't know anyone who's willing to astral project for me, including friends.
Tell them astral project to my apartment. There's 500 in cash hidden somewhere here. If they tell you where it is, I'll send it to them.
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:57 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
I have no belief about the existence of souls. That's the null hypothesis. If someone will give me solid evidence of these alleged souls I may change my position. Do you have any such evidence?

Didn't think so.
That's a good approach, don't believe until proven.
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Old 9th September 2017, 10:00 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Tell them astral project to my apartment. There's 500 in cash hidden somewhere here. If they tell you where it is, I'll send it to them.
They're not into astral projection, actually kind of aversive to it, I wouldn't want to make them do something they didn't want to.
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Old 9th September 2017, 10:51 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
That's a good approach, don't believe until proven.
In a scientific sense, that's the ONLY approach.
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Old 9th September 2017, 11:28 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
They're not into astral projection, actually kind of aversive to it, I wouldn't want to make them do something they didn't want to.
Then you do it.
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Old 9th September 2017, 11:38 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I have difficulty achieving it and my friends aren't willing to do it.

When you say that you "have difficulty achieving it", do you mean that you can do it with difficulty or that you can't do it?

Do your "friends" claim that they can do it?
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Old 10th September 2017, 12:23 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Then I wonder if an experiment like this can succeed what makes or breaks them.
I'll tell you what breaks them. Proper controls. Eliminating the possibility of chance guessing or cheating. The more loose and fluffy the experiment, the more likely it is that it will "succeed". The more strongly controlled it is, the less likely it is.

Show me a test where a person has apparently demonstrated some kind of psychic ability, and I'll show you a test that lacks proper controls.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Haven't skeptics and believers been shown the same evidence for things and one believes and the other doesn't? I've been thinking these debates have more to do with the psychology of people than the facts, at least in some cases.
No, that's not the case at all. That's what the believers would like to think, but it's not true.

Skeptics have a higher standard for evidence than believers do. Skeptics want to be really, really sure that the results seen actually demonstrate some kind of phenomenon, and not someone cheating or getting success by chance. Believers don't care. Believers will accept anything that confirms what they already believe, regardless of whether it's rigorous or not.
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Old 10th September 2017, 01:13 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Would someone accurately reporting a series of digits after "seeing them" "out of body" prove that consciousness can exist independently of the body?
Suppose you were to fly a drone with a camera somewhere. On a screen you see what the drone sees. Does that mean your consciousness is there?

If you fitted 2 cameras like eyes and used something like occulus rift then you might feel as if you were really where the drone is. Does that mean your consciousness is there?

In any case, it would not show consciousness being independent of the body.
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Old 10th September 2017, 01:21 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The answer to the OP is yes, a properly conducted, well designed test under controlled conditions which had results that exceeded the pre-agreed success criteria would indeed provide evidence for the existence of astral projection. Just as properly conducted tests have provided evidence of everything from the wave nature of light to the Higgs Boson.

Sadly all such tests have so far yielded no positive results, so there is currently no evidence for astral projection.
Not true. The experiment discussed (particularly using 5 digits) bears an uncanny resemblance to a certain experiment conducted by Charles Tart.
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Old 10th September 2017, 05:25 AM   #66
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Be aware that James Randi has already conducted such an experiment, free to all to participate.
He suspended a wire basket from the ceiling of his office, with a note inside, face up. People capable of either astral projection or "remote viewing" were invited to read the note.
No one ever did.

One wag complained that Randi's staff were turning out the lights at night, so the note couldn't be read. (Apparently you can't astral-project during the day?)
Randi obligingly left the lights on, but still no one read the note.
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Old 10th September 2017, 08:11 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Then you do it.
I might keep trying, but I haven't been able to pull it off after months of trying.
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Old 10th September 2017, 08:12 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
When you say that you "have difficulty achieving it", do you mean that you can do it with difficulty or that you can't do it?

Do your "friends" claim that they can do it?
Can't do it. Friends do not claim they can do it.
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Old 10th September 2017, 08:43 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Can't do it. Friends do not claim they can do it.

So what exactly did you mean when you said that your friends "aren't willing to do it", or that you "wouldn't want to make them do something they didn't want to"?
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Old 10th September 2017, 09:40 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Do you know that the soul doesn't exist? I don't know if the soul exists. It would be great if I could be agnostic and impartial about it but you don't really control being convinced of something. I don't know, it just seems like a flaw in human nature to me that people just don't remain agnostic about things they don't know.
Since, to date, there is zero evidence for a soul able to be isolated and separated from the human body, I have no reason at all to believe that there is. To be scientifically precise, I know that I must allow a very small margin for error, but for me this is so vanishingly small, that I do not spend much time considering it.

Your use of the word 'agnostic' sounds a bit vague. Could you please state precisely what you undderstand by this?
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Old 10th September 2017, 10:23 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I do not have much knowledge about how science is carried out so I might not be able to answer that to your satisfaction.
One way to design the experiment is have the person picked up from one location, and taken to building unknown to the subject. There, the subject surrenders their clothing and is provided a hospital gown, randomly selected from a stack and removed from the factory packaging. That person is locked in in a room without windows, phones or electronics of any kind.

In a separate room, a series of pictures are displayed. You could number a catalog of pictures and roll dice to select say 10 out of 100. Then, have the person select from the catalog which pictures were displayed in the room.
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Old 10th September 2017, 03:25 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I might keep trying, but I haven't been able to pull it off after months of trying.
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Can't do it. Friends do not claim they can do it.
A good working hypothesis is that no-one can do it. Certainly, no-one has ever demonstrated the ability to do it.
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:30 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Of course, astral projection would have to be a real thing first. Happened to me twice and I am stone cold convinced that they are very vivid hallucinations, like lucid dreaming.

Several decades ago, I read a "textbook" on Golden Dawn-style ritual magic, which included a chapter teaching how to astral project. It bore a striking resemblance to guided imagery (I think that's the right term).

"Imagine yourself leaving your body and walking around the room. Imagine yourself looking out the window. Imagine yourself examining something that's sitting on the table."
As I recall, the idea was that if you imagine often enough, hard enough, it will actually happen, and you won't just be imagining any more. It sounds a lot like programming yourself to have a lucid dream.
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:26 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Several decades ago, I read a "textbook" on Golden Dawn-style ritual magic, which included a chapter teaching how to astral project. It bore a striking resemblance to guided imagery (I think that's the right term).

"Imagine yourself leaving your body and walking around the room. Imagine yourself looking out the window. Imagine yourself examining something that's sitting on the table."
As I recall, the idea was that if you imagine often enough, hard enough, it will actually happen, and you won't just be imagining any more. It sounds a lot like programming yourself to have a lucid dream.
Mine were spontaneous, both in times of perceived danger that I couldn't control. Kind of the head's way of saying 'I'm outta here, gonna see how this works out from the sidelines'.
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:46 AM   #75
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How does "seeing" things while astral projecting work anyway? Vision is a fairly well-understood physical process by which reflected photons trigger various sensing cells in the eyes. Whatever an astral body is, it certainly doesn't have physical cells to sense anything, so by what mechanic could you possibly "see"?

If astral projection somehow was a real thing, wouldn't it more likely that however you would sense in such a state would be as different from regular vision as any other senses are from each other?

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Old 12th September 2017, 10:24 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Five digits.
How many times was it repeated? Once could be luck (low probability obviously). Multiple times, if properly controlled (and especially if there aren't "misses") is either some kind of cheating or the real deal.
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Old 16th September 2017, 09:08 AM   #77
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I doubt you'll ever get anyone to take the test. As stated in an earlier post, Randi had his note available for a long time and no one ever tried. In my own personal experience, I've met 3 people who claimed they could astral project. They loved talking about it and telling me all the things they could do. As soon as I asked any of them to do a simple test - like reading a note on my kitchen table - the conversation was over.
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