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Tags telepathy , telepathy test

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Old 10th November 2013, 04:35 AM   #241
dafydd
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Yes, I have a Ph.D. degree in physics from a large U.S. university. I have done some more research in physics at home in recent years, but I haven't had time to publish it yet.
I find that very hard to belive.
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Old 10th November 2013, 04:42 AM   #242
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After going back and re-reading the OP, and then hearing the author has a Ph.D. in physics...now i pray that someone like Stephen Hawking, in trying to unravel the mysteries of the universe, doesnt use convoluted protocols like our telepathy author. To the author: Ever google something like ``good ways to test for telepathy``? Here is MY test: ``What am i thinking of right now?`` the end. Lol. Anyone care to guess? I will repeatedly be concentrating on this using my brain only. We wouldnt want to start an argument that either my pen or paper i wrote a number down on is really telepathic. Lol.
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Old 10th November 2013, 04:45 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Iamme View Post
After going back and re-reading the OP, and then hearing the author has a Ph.D. in physics...now i pray that someone like Stephen Hawking, in trying to unravel the mysteries of the universe, doesnt use convoluted protocols like our telepathy author. To the author: Ever google something like ``good ways to test for telepathy``? Here is MY test: ``What am i thinking of right now?`` the end. Lol. Anyone care to guess? I will repeatedly be concentrating on this using my brain only. We wouldnt want to start an argument that either my pen or paper i wrote a number down on is really telepathic. Lol.
You only heard a claim. Whether it is true or not is debatable.
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Old 10th November 2013, 07:03 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Although, saying I'll learn anything from this is perhaps a far cry...
Michel, are you interested in determining whether you actually have some sort of ESP ability? Or are you more interested in only proving to yourself that you do?

Designing a test with such a small sample size, with such a non-random and small set of target objects, and giving yourself such a subjective way to "judge" the results after you know the answers can only mean that you know you have no telepathic ability.

Would you like to do a proper test?
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Old 10th November 2013, 07:08 AM   #245
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Dafydd, if he really has that degree....heaven help us all. Btw, every now and then i repeatedly think of that which i`d like any of you to try to guess at. To all---the trouble is with a thinking test, at least on a one first shot attempt is...someone could guess some other thought i`ve had in my brain lately, like say...um...well, maybe i`d better not say. Well, then that is where repeat testings come in. Even with tests where people are in 2 separate rooms looking at pictures in a picture book(classic telepathy test), the person guessing might have chose an incorrect picture, but the incorrect choice might be that of which the `sender` had tossed around in his/her mind for a while. Hence, many repeat tests need to be done, even if INCorrect choices were made, because there could even be partial validation in those, especially if the reciever guessed final chosen correct ones on top of it. And here is something else ---can any distinct line be drawn separating telepathy from psychic? For example, what if a person cant guess what im thinking for the actual test, yet told me im in bed right now, but just got up to get a swig of prune juice...and i did! That would really set off the woo alarms i bet.
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Old 10th November 2013, 07:25 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Iamme View Post
For example, what if a person cant guess what im thinking for the actual test, yet told me im in bed right now, but just got up to get a swig of prune juice...and i did! That would really set off the woo alarms i bet.
That would set off my "hidden camera" alarms!
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Old 10th November 2013, 09:52 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Iamme View Post
Dafydd, if he really has that degree...
A scientist who knows nothing about the scientific method? Very unlikely.
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Old 10th November 2013, 09:53 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
That would set off my "hidden camera" alarms!
Drink enough prune juice and that will set off something else.
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Old 10th November 2013, 11:27 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Iamme View Post
... And here is something else ---can any distinct line be drawn separating telepathy from psychic? For example, what if a person cant guess what im thinking for the actual test, yet told me im in bed right now, but just got up to get a swig of prune juice...and i did! That would really set off the woo alarms i bet.
This is a problem with the paranormal - when something is defined by what it isn't, rather than what it is (e.g. telepathy - communication by no known means), it's impossible to devise properly controlled tests. For example, how do you distinguish telepathy from clairvoyance, remote viewing, precognition, the universal subconscious, magic, witchcraft, divine intervention, etc. ?

James Cunningham, on the Veridicality of Dream Psi thread, posted a very useful article by James Alcock, about the problems with psi & research into it, called "Give the Null Hypothesis a Chance".
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Old 10th November 2013, 02:24 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
No, I don't have "credibility protocols".
This is an example of an answer I found credible:
, and this is an exemple of an answer that I did not find credible:

I think it is likely I am not the only one who can come to these conclusions.
I think this is quite telling.

Without your credibility system, the results of your tests show your telepathy works no better than random chance. But you don't actually have a system. You make up rules after the fact. And this ONLY helps when you have the knowledge necessary to modify the results in your favor.
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Old 10th November 2013, 02:49 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
No, no, I am not saying that sending a message in a unexpected wording changes anything in this tendency I apparently have, to involuntarily send "thoughts" into the minds of people (remote or not).
ap·par·ent (-prnt, -pâr-)
adj.
1. Readily seen; visible.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/apparently

Considering your endless excuses you design to explain why your telepathy always fails, I'm not sure what you mean by "apparently".

But I do think you need to explain what is going on here then. You are saying you now need to know what people say to each other after the fact before you can decide whether their answers to your test should be included in the results. Why?

And really, how can anyone participate when the rules they are supposed to abide by are create by you after the test and after you have seen their answers? How can they try to be credible there are no protocols for credibility? How can they know what not to say to other people privately after the test if there are no protocols for what people are allowed to discuss?

Would you agree to be tested under those conditions? You send out a number, and then, later, we decide what your number really was based on rules we made up for our own purposes?

Would you take medicine which was evaluated by researchers who behaved the way you are? "Our pills killed zero percent of the people in our trials, after we removed most people from our study."
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Old 10th November 2013, 03:02 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Drink enough prune juice and that will set off something else.
Hahaha....believe me, it has! But you have to admit, that be prettu impressive, and confusing, if a person couldnt pick a number, but displayed some power that they could tell a person what they were doing. Maybe i thought of this scenario from watching John Edward too much, some years ago.
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Old 10th November 2013, 04:15 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Originally Posted by Iamme View Post
After going back and re-reading the OP, and then hearing the author has a Ph.D. in physics...now i pray that someone like Stephen Hawking, in trying to unravel the mysteries of the universe, doesnt use convoluted protocols like our telepathy author. ...
You only heard a claim. Whether it is true or not is debatable.
Here is a photo of my diploma:


It says:
The Regents of the University of Minnesota, on recommendation of the faculty, have conferred upon Michel Hanck the degree of Doctor of Philosophy, with all its privileges and obligations (1987).
Now, don't exaggerate the importance of this degree, I think it is unreasonable to judge a person from just a degree. There may be lots of good people with no university or college degree.
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Old 10th November 2013, 05:15 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Here is a photo of my diploma:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...00a99025c0.png
It says:
The Regents of the University of Minnesota, on recommendation of the faculty, have conferred upon Michel Hanck the degree of Doctor of Philosophy, with all its privileges and obligations (1987).
Now, don't exaggerate the importance of this degree, I think it is unreasonable to judge a person from just a degree. There may be lots of good people with no university or college degree.
Physics =/= philosophy

However for once I agree with you.
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Old 10th November 2013, 05:18 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Iamme View Post
an any distinct line be drawn separating telepathy from psychic?
No need to draw a distinction, they are both imaginary.
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Old 10th November 2013, 05:20 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Here is a photo of my diploma:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...00a99025c0.png
It says:
The Regents of the University of Minnesota, on recommendation of the faculty, have conferred upon Michel Hanck the degree of Doctor of Philosophy, with all its privileges and obligations (1987).
Now, don't exaggerate the importance of this degree, I think it is unreasonable to judge a person from just a degree. There may be lots of good people with no university or college degree.
What happened to you? Why have you ditched science?
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Old 10th November 2013, 05:34 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
Physics =/= philosophy
I think you've made a common mistake here.

The term "Philosophy" in "Ph.D" is NOT the subject, its the level of achievement in a subject.

You can have a PhD in Physics, Mathematics, Applied Mathematics, etc.
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Old 10th November 2013, 07:59 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Here is a photo of my diploma:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...00a99025c0.png
It says:
The Regents of the University of Minnesota, on recommendation of the faculty, have conferred upon Michel Hanck the degree of Doctor of Philosophy, with all its privileges and obligations (1987).
What about a scan of this degree?

Quote:
Yes, I have a Ph.D. degree in physics from a large U.S. university. I have done some more research in physics at home in recent years, but I haven't had time to publish it yet.
Norm
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Old 10th November 2013, 08:24 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
What about a scan of this degree?

Norm
Why do you want a scan, Mister Never-Satisfied?, can't you read it?, do you think it's not legible? I have no image scanner at home.
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Old 10th November 2013, 08:43 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Why do you want a scan, Mister Never-Satisfied?, can't you read it?, do you think it's not legible? I have no image scanner at home.
Because you earlier claimed a Physics degree, and you posted a Philosophy degree. You do know that there is a difference?

Norm
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Old 10th November 2013, 08:52 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
Physics =/= philosophy

However for once I agree with you.
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
Physics =/= philosophy
I think you've made a common mistake here.

The term "Philosophy" in "Ph.D" is NOT the subject, its the level of achievement in a subject.

You can have a PhD in Physics, Mathematics, Applied Mathematics, etc.
I think smartcooky is right (thank you, smartcooky). However, for Yes Nay_Sayer (and also fromdownunder), here is an example of an article I published, in Nuclear Physics A:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...75947485902052
I noticed also that my Ph.D. thesis is mentioned in Google Books:
http://books.google.be/books/about/A...AJ&redir_esc=y
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Old 10th November 2013, 09:10 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Here is a photo of my diploma:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...00a99025c0.png
It says:
The Regents of the University of Minnesota, on recommendation of the faculty, have conferred upon Michel Hanck the degree of Doctor of Philosophy, with all its privileges and obligations (1987).
Now, don't exaggerate the importance of this degree, I think it is unreasonable to judge a person from just a degree. There may be lots of good people with no university or college degree.
What happened to you? Why have you ditched science?

This is a very good question.
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Old 10th November 2013, 09:18 PM   #263
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For some interesting reading you can google 2 things: ``Has anybody ever proven telepathy?``....and, ``the N`kisi project``(which has been discussed here like 7-10? years ago, and maybe could be archived?)
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Old 10th November 2013, 09:22 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Iamme View Post
For some interesting reading you can google 2 things: ``Has anybody ever proven telepathy?``
The answer to that is no.
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Old 10th November 2013, 09:38 PM   #265
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If they did, they could have won the JREF million dollar challenge....or WOULD they? (I have always contended that it never be paid out...that no woo would ever be accepted as proven even if it was proven. That there`d be some excuse saying there is no proof even if there was proof. That`s just my personal opinion.)
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Old 10th November 2013, 09:41 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Iamme View Post
If they did, they could have won the JREF million dollar challenge....or WOULD they? (I have always contended that it never be paid out...that no woo would ever be accepted as proven even if it was proven. That there`d be some excuse saying there is no proof even if there was proof. That`s just my personal opinion.)

What do you base this opinion on? You do know how the MDC is run, right?
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Old 10th November 2013, 09:42 PM   #267
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Would the good Dr. Michel be so kind to tell us what this other project is?, that you havent had time to write the paper on yet? Start a new thread on this if you would, please. I`m sure there are a lot more than just me that be very interested.
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Old 10th November 2013, 09:50 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Here is a photo of my diploma:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...00a99025c0.png
It says:
The Regents of the University of Minnesota, on recommendation of the faculty, have conferred upon Michel Hanck the degree of Doctor of Philosophy, with all its privileges and obligations (1987).
Now, don't exaggerate the importance of this degree, I think it is unreasonable to judge a person from just a degree. There may be lots of good people with no university or college degree.
"Don't exaggerate" is very negative. That means the credibility rating for your evidence is -10.

Please post credible evidence of your degree.
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Old 10th November 2013, 09:53 PM   #269
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Adman, its been 10 years since i read it. I think there is a third party involved and the money is escrowed in some account. But refresh me who has the final say that spmeone or group should be awarded the prize?; a panel where Randi himself cant hold back on the check? but no need to derail the thread on this. This is just something i brought up on a side note, so to speak.
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Old 10th November 2013, 10:04 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Iamme View Post
Adman, its been 10 years since i read it. I think there is a third party involved and the money is escrowed in some account. But refresh me who has the final say that spmeone or group should be awarded the prize?; a panel where Randi himself cant hold back on the check? but no need to derail the thread on this. This is just something i brought up on a side note, so to speak.
Well, don't want to derail the thread, but as I understand it the protocol for an MDC test needs to be agreed upon by both parties, and at that point a contract is written up and signed. If the claimant passes the test according to what was previously agreed, the JREF would be in breach of contract and in legal trouble if they didn't pay up. That's why I was wondering why you doubted the $1M would ever be paid out, even if the claimant proved their claims according to the mutually agreed-upon protocol.

In any case, this is a discussion for another thread and subforum. Back to our regularly scheduled programming...
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Old 10th November 2013, 10:34 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Iamme View Post
Would the good Dr. Michel be so kind to tell us what this other project is?, that you havent had time to write the paper on yet? Start a new thread on this if you would, please. I`m sure there are a lot more than just me that be very interested.
Yes, sure. It's mostly about Quantum Mechanics (and Quantum Field Theory). I found some apparently pretty solid reasons to believe that Quantum Mechanics can actually be derived from classical electrodynamics (this is a position very different from the current one, where the Schrödinger equation is postulated). I also have a good reason (I think) to believe that the Special Theory of Relativity is incorrect (although usually quite accurate).
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Old 10th November 2013, 11:25 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I also have a good reason (I think) to believe that the Special Theory of Relativity is incorrect (although usually quite accurate).

Are you trying to apply a Credibility Rating to SR?

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Old 11th November 2013, 12:36 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
What happened to you? Why have you ditched science?
Originally Posted by AdMan View Post
This is a very good question.
I don't think there is anything particularly untoward or wrong just because a scientist experiments with or studies ESP or some other "fringe" area.

I have a good friend who is an astrophysicist, a Professor at a University in England, and whose research interests include stellar nucleosynthesis, stellar evolution, big bang nucleosynthesis and the chemical evolution of galaxies. He is also a Christian; always has been for all the time I have known him right back to the 1970s and 80s when we were both members of the same Astronomical Society, and I assisted him with his Masters thesis on variable supergiant stars by using the Society's photoelectric telescope to gather light curve data on RY Sagittarius.

I do not consider for one moment that he ever "ditched science" just because he believes in God!

I also am a firm believer in Carl Sagan's credo "The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there's no place for it in the endeavour of science".
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Old 11th November 2013, 12:39 AM   #274
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The OP has the makings for a greate scam. Michel, do you know Marcus? You should tell him that his domain expires this month.

Last edited by Dan O.; 11th November 2013 at 12:42 AM.
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Old 11th November 2013, 01:11 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I don't think there is anything particularly untoward or wrong just because a scientist experiments with or studies ESP or some other "fringe" area.


It's not the interest, or even belief, in telepathy that's drawing flak here so much as the appallingly unscientific way in which this 'experiment' has been conducted.
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Old 11th November 2013, 01:22 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Iamme View Post
But refresh me who has the final say that spmeone or group should be awarded the prize?; a panel where Randi himself cant hold back on the check?
It is a requirement of the challenge that no subjective judgement by anyone must be used, the result must be self evident. The protocol and success criteria are agreed in advance. Usually the success criteria is set at odds of 1 in 1000 of achieving the result by chance.
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Old 11th November 2013, 01:26 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
It's not the interest, or even belief, in telepathy that's drawing flak here so much as the appallingly unscientific way in which this 'experiment' has been conducted.
Working within the limitations of a public forum was always going to be a problem. IMO. It would have solved a lot of problems if it had been possible to post a poll that does not show the progress of the vote and only shows the results when the poll is closed. Then he could simply have sent his chosen number via PM to two trusted volunteers who would themselves undertake not to participate in the poll.

Certainly not water-tight by any means, but a lot better that what he been suggested here.
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Old 11th November 2013, 01:41 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
It is a requirement of the challenge that no subjective judgement by anyone must be used, the result must be self evident. The protocol and success criteria are agreed in advance. Usually the success criteria is set at odds of 1 in 1000 of achieving the result by chance.

You are totally wrong. The test subject is allowed to make subjective judgments. The protocol in the op is valid. What has not been negotiated is the criteria for success and this cannot be negotiated without the subject running some trials of the protocol to determin his expected success rate.

What has been demonstrated is that the vast majority of "skeptics" fail at comprehending or following the protocol and none of them noticed the hole that would allow an unscrupulous subject cheat. Instead, I noticed the typical zeal of the "skeptics" trying to chastise the OP. It's quite pathetic really. I don't know why Randi allows this forum to continue.
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Old 11th November 2013, 02:07 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
It's not the interest, or even belief, in telepathy that's drawing flak here so much as the appallingly unscientific way in which this 'experiment' has been conducted.

Exactly.
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Old 11th November 2013, 02:08 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
You are totally wrong. The test subject is allowed to make subjective judgments.
I meant that no-one (whether Randi, the claimant or a third party judge) is allowed to make a subjective judgement about whether or not the test was a success or a failure. That is the question that was being asked.

Quote:
The protocol in the op is valid.
I never said it wasn't. Michel's previous tests weren't, but I agree with Agatha that this one was a considerable improvement, though it was still a long way from the sort of protocol that would be accepted for a real MDC test. I can understand why some posters thought it was a sufficiently big step forward to be encouraged but I had severe doubts that it would enable any genuine progress to be made - doubts that have sadly proved to be justified.
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