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Old 10th August 2017, 08:46 PM   #41
Bubba
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
You mean people with pretty much zero understanding of physics and engineering?

Yes, thats the idea, as in remote sorta backwards cultures where their information might arrive only by word of mouth.

Perhaps elders or chief authority figure is source of info...kinda like that. So take it from that information level all the way to those who went to the moon.


...because like:

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
....

Anyways, that "chain of information" thing could possibly be an interesting topic if it ever becomes one.
Good, that is what I had in mind for this thread. Some understood that and replied accordingly. Others understandably mistook the OP for something else, even though the Apollo astronauts and staff were acknowledged in the OP as follows:

Quote:
"Other than those who went to the moon, who has sufficient direct knowledge/experience to know they went to the moon? Rocket men and women, and other project staff would know."
>>>


Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
So this would be a book about people who have set foot on the moon? And also limited to those Apollo astronauts (that would be all of them) who stated publicly they landed on the moon? How do you determine if they were afraid to admit it or unafraid?

Ranb

No. Not Apollo. Rather non Apollo folks coming out of the closet....because people like this:

Quote:

(Been to the moon?)
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
Yes. Why do you ask Bubba?
Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Researching for book on people not afraid to admit publicly that they've been to the moon.

Unless former Apollo,
please elaborate on when, how, why, etc.
Did you go alone ?

Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
Other, Signed a non-disclosure form.

Semi related, Ever been to the Byrd Station?

>>>

Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
I find it curious that you chose the moon landing as the example used in this thread when from conception to completion it was possibly the most well documented endevour in human history.
It was chosen because Apollo denial is also well known....makes a good study as in
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I...

Anyways, that "chain of information" thing could possibly be an interesting topic if it ever becomes one.
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Old 10th August 2017, 09:25 PM   #42
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That didn't really answer my question
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Old 10th August 2017, 09:40 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Yes, thats the idea, as in remote sorta backwards cultures where their information might arrive only by word of mouth.
Or YouTube videos?
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Old 10th August 2017, 10:27 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
That didn't really answer my question
I saw 2 questions.

Answers

1. Marks one (high) end of the 'information chain'

2. I have not been to the Byrd Station
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Old 11th August 2017, 01:59 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Yes, thats the idea, as in remote sorta backwards cultures where their information might arrive only by word of mouth.

Perhaps elders or chief authority figure is source of info...kinda like that. So take it from that information level all the way to those who went to the moon.

snip blah...blah...blah...

It was chosen because Apollo denial is also well known...snip
But we don't have to start at a primitive level because we're not a primitive culture. Being a society that has sent people to the moon and spacecraft out of the solar system we don't need to look at this through the prism of a primitive culture.

Apollo wasn't chosen, you chose it. Why did you phrase your decision this way? You seem to have a fear of taking any sort of responsibility.
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Old 11th August 2017, 02:19 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Researching for book on people not afraid to admit publicly that they've been to the moon.
Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
No. Not Apollo. Rather non Apollo folks coming out of the closet....
Really? That was a fast change in direction. Never mind I suppose.

Last edited by Ranb; 11th August 2017 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 11th August 2017, 02:53 PM   #47
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A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Of course the idea of a chain of evidence is that it authenticates just a single item of evidence. With something like Apollo, the volume of evidence is so enormous and wide ranging that the tangle of chains would sink a battleship. Has there been a more painstakingly and publicly documented project anywhere, ever?
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Old 11th August 2017, 02:55 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
I saw 2 questions.

Answers

1. Marks one (high) end of the 'information chain'

2. I have not been to the Byrd Station
Thanks but there is some trouble news.

Ah thanks.

So I can now conclude that no one has ever been to Byrd Station and from that because I have never been to your house no one else has.
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Old 11th August 2017, 04:05 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Have you been to the moon?
No, but I've been to Oklahoma. They tell me I was born there, but I really don't remember.
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Old 11th August 2017, 07:57 PM   #50
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My message got mangled.

The point I'm making is we have more than just word of mouth for the moon visits Bubba, you know this.
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Old 11th August 2017, 08:24 PM   #51
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Had a layover on the way to Mars. Does it count if you didnt leave the spaceport?
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Old 11th August 2017, 09:26 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
All the people who have been to the Moon (both orbiting and orbiting/landing) have publicly and repeatedly spoken of it. That's the crews of Apollo 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17. No one was "afraid to admit it".
Obviously, thanks, which is why I figured readers would recognize I was referring to non-Apollo others that we never heard about, like Nay Sayer for example, whom I was responding to when I first wrote "..afraid to admit...(been to the moon) "

Of course Apollo were not timid about it.
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Old 11th August 2017, 09:32 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Yes, thats the idea, as in remote sorta backwards cultures where their information might arrive only by word of mouth.

Perhaps elders or chief authority figure is source of info...kinda like that. So take it from that information level all the way to those who went to the moon.



It was chosen because Apollo denial is also well known...snip
For any who misunderstood that...

I chose to use Apollo in the OP because the well known Apollo denial exemplifies my view about 'the information chain'. My concept of the 'information chain' is what the OP is about.

Members sphenisc, p0lka, mgidm86, and one or two others seemed to recognize it without explanation. They commented accordingly, my thanks go to them.

Quote:
'How far downstream in the information chain are those who must rely solely on trust in writers and reporters? Where in that chain does/must it become belief/faith? In terms of sophistication perhaps? Where are you on that info chain? How would others frame this question more simply?
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
But we don't have to start at a primitive level because we're not a primitive culture. Being a society that has sent people to the moon and spacecraft out of the solar system we don't need to look at this through the prism of a primitive culture.
Obviously thanks. Its the more primitive which make the point best about trusting reporters.

Quote:
Apollo wasn't chosen, you chose it. Why did you phrase your decision this way? You seem to have a fear of taking any sort of responsibility.
Yes I chose it intentionally as explained above.
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Old 11th August 2017, 09:37 PM   #54
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Researching for book on people not afraid to admit publicly that they've been to the moon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
No. Not Apollo. Rather non Apollo folks coming out of the closet....


Ranb said
Really? That was a fast change in direction. Never mind I suppose.
Change in direction ?
No, because Apollo guys were always public about it. Nay Sayer inspired me to write about other people that went to the moon without telling us (until now).

Nay Sayer has yet to share how he got there, but I know of two guys that got there (before Apollo!) in a modified Cadillac. Their story is mentioned in a YouTube Documentary. Apparently there were others. The documentary is only about ten minutes long. It is very informative.

If you are interested just go onto the internet. After you get there, look around for something called The Old Negro Space Program.
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Old 11th August 2017, 10:35 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
It's been a while since one of your passive-aggressive JAQ threads, Bubba. Welcome back!

Will it be page 2, 3, ... [?] before you try the ol' interpret-someone's-answer-as-support-for-a-conspiracy routine?
Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Obviously, thanks, which is why I figured readers would recognize I was referring to non-Apollo others that we never heard about, like Nay Sayer for example, whom I was responding to when I first wrote "..afraid to admit...(been to the moon)"
So, page 2 it is for the conspiracy theory to come out...

Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
...Nay Sayer has yet to share how he got there, but I know of two guys that got there (before Apollo!) in a modified Cadillac...
...except it's not really a conspiracy theory, just some stupid story. People were right that this thread doesn't belong in the General Skepticism subforum, but wrong that it belongs in Conspiracy; it belongs in Humor, to be charitable.
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Old 12th August 2017, 12:32 AM   #56
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Gymnastics.

Last edited by Bubba; 12th August 2017 at 12:36 AM.
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Old 12th August 2017, 12:59 AM   #57
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What I had in mind for this thread is here in the last paragraph of the OP


Quote:
How far downstream in the information chain are those who must rely solely on trust in writers and reporters? Where in that chain does/must it become belief/faith? In terms of sophistication perhaps? Where are you on that info chain? How would others frame this question more simply?
I appreciate how sphenisc recognized what the thread is about and replied thoughtfully

Quote:

Originally Posted by sphenisc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Have you been to the moon?
No, I haven't been to the moon.

Quote:
Quote by Bubba :
If so, you'd not need to trust others reporting what becomes/became 'history'.

No., I 'd still need to trust others reporting about historical events. The fact I'd been somewhere doesn't mean that every report about what happened there is true.

Quote:
Quote by Bubba :
Other than those who went to the moon, who has sufficient direct knowledge/experience to know they went to the moon?

No-one. The rest of us have sufficient indirect knowledge to know they went to the moon.

Quote:
Quote by Bubba :
Rocket men and women, and other project staff would know.

Their experience is indirect.

Quote:
Quote by Bubba :
But what of those further and furthest away from that perspective?

How far downstream in the information chain are those who must rely solely on trust in writers and reporters? Where in that chain does/must it become belief/faith? In terms of sophistication perhaps? Where are you on that info chain? How would others frame this question more simply?

Thanks to modern technology the chain for most of us is remarkably short. We can watch videos of the events. We can listen to interviews with the astronauts involved. We are but one step removed from being their ourselves. What a great time being alive.

.
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Old 12th August 2017, 04:33 AM   #58
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I will go the OP one step further: not having been to the moon I question it's very existence...
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Old 12th August 2017, 08:36 AM   #59
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Some interesting points here. Let me add my tuppenceworth.
Firstly, with regards to Bubba's point about 'primitive societies' relying solely on the word of writers and reporters, I would have thought that, by definition, a primitive society would lack any kind of organised media, and so the example is hardly relevant.
What these societies did instead, was to rely on either people from their own tribe or area to venture out of those places and bring back news of the outside, or alternatively, fill up the void with myths and fables about what lay beyond the mountains.
During the time of the Wild West, one of the things the American government would do was to take representatives of Native American tribes to the cities of the East. The idea was to impress them with the power and benefits of "civilisation", and thus make the process of assimilation easier. The problem was that, when these people returned, virtually no-one in their tribe would believe that there were that many white settlers, nor anything else about what they had seen. They believed instead that the white man had put some sort of spell on them.
There is an interesting parallel to be made here, I believe, with the world of conspiracy theorists. Many of those I have encountered live in a little bubble, cut off from the outside world. In the absence of real expertise in any area (e.g. engineering knowledge when talking about 9/11), the void is filled with fantasies and inventions. Anyone who learns more about any particular story, and who attempts to argue with them, is denounced as a shill, a sheeple or worse.
This also connects to my second point, about trusting writers or reporters. It is my consistent experience with CT-ers that they very rarely follow the information stream to the source. Rather, they rely on CT echo-chambers, and the wild and unsupported assertions of the likes of Alex Jones or David Icke. Skeptics and debunkers, on the other hand, are much better versed in checking the origins and veracity of any particular story.
Finally, if Bubba and those of his ilk want to play this out into a means of living your life, there are, I believe, only two choices. Either you trust no-one, ever, and refuse to believe anything unless you yourself have directly witnessed it, which would turn your life into a living hell (imagine testing your tapwater every single time you go to drink, in case it's not water, or it's poisoned. Just because they told you it's water doesn't mean it really is), or you display a reasonable level of trust in your fellow human beings, and take reasonable efforts, with big or controversial stories, to follow them until you can be largely confident of the facts, and be happy with that.
To be honest, it's quite astonishing to me that this last point has to be made at all.
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Old 12th August 2017, 10:35 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Firstly, with regards to Bubba's point about 'primitive societies' relying solely on the word of writers and reporters, I would have thought that, by definition, a primitive society would lack any kind of organised media, and so the example is hardly relevant.

Above item seems irrelevant because (see first hilite)


Quote:
From Post #41:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote
You mean people with pretty much zero understanding of physics and engineering?
Quote:
by Bubba:

Yes, thats the idea, as in remote sorta backwards cultures where their information might arrive only by word of mouth.

Perhaps elders or chief authority figure is source of info...kinda like that.
So take it from that information level all the way to those who went to the moon.
The last highlite described the span of info delivery systems from the least modern/sophisticated to the most, including the direct experience of Apollo crews. (thanks again for reading comprehension seen in post #13 by sphenisc)
.
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Old 12th August 2017, 10:37 AM   #61
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Quote:
by cosmic yak


....Finally, if Bubba and those of his ilk want to play this out into a means of living your life, there are, I believe, only two choices. Either you trust no-one, ever, and refuse to believe anything unless you yourself have directly witnessed it, which would turn your life into a living hell (imagine testing your tapwater every single time you go to drink, in case it's not water, or it's poisoned. Just because they told you it's water doesn't mean it really is), or you display a reasonable level of trust in your fellow human beings, and take reasonable efforts, with big or controversial stories, to follow them until you can be largely confident of the facts, and be happy with that.
To be honest, it's quite astonishing to me that this last point has to be made at all.
Observing the 'point' made was worth far more than the 'point' itself.

Wasnt there a documentary or two made about making this 'point'?
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:53 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Have you been to the moon?

If so, you'd not need to trust others reporting what becomes/became 'history'. Depending upon perspective, one person's 'history' can be like fake news to another. Losers vs victors writing it being a popular example.

Other than those who went to the moon, who has sufficient direct knowledge/experience to know they went to the moon? Rocket men and women, and other project staff would know.

But what of those further and furthest away from that perspective?

How far downstream in the information chain are those who must rely solely on trust in writers and reporters? Where in that chain does/must it become belief/faith? In terms of sophistication perhaps? Where are you on that info chain? How would others frame this question more simply?
Have you been to China?

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Old 12th August 2017, 12:23 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Serious answer recognized and appreciated

Thank you.
Serious questions absent, and sorely missed.
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Old 12th August 2017, 12:47 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Serious questions absent, and sorely missed.
You're kidding, right? This is one of Bubba's passsive-aggressive JAQing exercises. We're already into the initial "conspiracy" suggestions, the smokescreens, the one-word non sequitirs, and the aw-shucks-how-could-you-think-that-was-my-claims are warming up nicely.
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Old 12th August 2017, 01:12 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
You're kidding, right? This is one of Bubba's passsive-aggressive JAQing exercises. We're already into the initial "conspiracy" suggestions, the smokescreens, the one-word non sequitirs, and the aw-shucks-how-could-you-think-that-was-my-claims are warming up nicely.
Yes I was. I know Bubba's typical JAQing-off posts.
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Old 12th August 2017, 01:27 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
For any who misunderstood that...

I chose to use Apollo in the OP because the well known Apollo denial exemplifies my view about 'the information chain'. My concept of the 'information chain' is what the OP is about.

Members sphenisc, p0lka, mgidm86, and one or two others seemed to recognize it without explanation. They commented accordingly, my thanks go to them.





Obviously thanks. Its the more primitive which make the point best about trusting reporters.



Yes I chose it intentionally as explained above.
But your primitive analogy doesn't apply to your question. The country that went to the moon also has lots of (though not enough) people who understand how we went to the moon and how mindlessly idiotic it is to think the moon landing was faked. We don't have to trust reporters because we have many sources available to establish that we did in fact, go to the moon.

Do you believe humans went to and returned safely from the moon?
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Old 12th August 2017, 08:57 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
But your primitive analogy doesn't apply to your question. ...

With Apollo as an example, the OP was about how people can know. Knowing ranges from those who went to the moon on one end of the spectrum, down to the most 'primitive' who only hear of it, from someone like a chief or elder. Nowadays there are fewer and fewer in so 'primitive' a culture.

In Apollo's era surely some 'primitive' people figured their messenger was crazy, like Cosmic Yak's native Americans believing that the white man had put a spell on the messenger.

So if you're referring to my question(s) in the OP, I dont get your hilited point, as I thought the OP's questions mostly point to when/where knowing becomes a matter of faith in more primitive places.


Quote:
We don't have to trust reporters because we have many sources available to establish that we did in fact, go to the moon.
True. Accordingly the OP's questions point away from our sources, as elaborated in reply to Foster Zygote:

Quote:
Yes, thats the idea, as in remote sorta backwards cultures where their information might arrive only by word of mouth.

Perhaps elders or chief authority figure is source of info...kinda like that. So take it from that information level all the way to those who went to the moon.
For your convenience, the OP...

Quote:
Have you been to the moon?

If so, you'd not need to trust others reporting what becomes/became 'history'. Depending upon perspective, one person's 'history' can be like fake news to another. Losers vs victors writing it being a popular example.

Other than those who went to the moon, who has sufficient direct knowledge/experience to know they went to the moon? Rocket men and women, and other project staff would know.

But what of those further and furthest away from that perspective?

How far downstream in the information chain are those who must rely solely on trust in writers and reporters? Where in that chain does/must it become belief/faith? In terms of sophistication perhaps? Where are you on that info chain? How would others frame this question more simply?

Quote:
Do you believe humans went to and returned safely from the moon?
Yep.
.

Last edited by Bubba; 12th August 2017 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 16th August 2017, 10:09 AM   #68
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Have you been to the moon?

Do you believe anyone, besides the Apollo astronauts, have been to the moon?
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Old 16th August 2017, 01:15 PM   #69
Bubba
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Have you been to the moon?

Do you believe anyone, besides the Apollo astronauts, have been to the moon?

No
and
no.
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Old 16th August 2017, 01:20 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
No
and
no.
What was the point of this thread?
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Old 16th August 2017, 09:15 PM   #71
Bubba
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Have you been to the moon?

Do you believe anyone, besides the Apollo astronauts, have been to the moon?

I said no, but maybe someone (Nay_Sayer) has been there. Who can disprove his claim, quoted here?

Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
Yes. Why do you ask Bubba?

Last edited by Bubba; 16th August 2017 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 16th August 2017, 10:33 PM   #72
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Bubba, Bubba, Bubba!

I'm going to guess that back in grade school on the back of the report card where they check off all that stuff that doesn't matter, next to "Plays Well With Others", they put down a "N" for needs improvement. Even when you try, you're off by just this much.

There are people, many of us, who've done things that others might consider extraordinary and, well, unbelievable (in the "I don't believe it" sense) but when you get to truly documentable and finite lists, you run the risk (with your past history) of bridging into woo. The number of people who've been to the moon is known. I think we'd know if one of them was a member. That's not that different from asking "Assassinated an Archduke or President?" We pretty much know who those people were.

How much better if you had:

A) Started the thread in Forum Community where folks will take a less jaundiced view.
B) Asked if anyone has had the experience of being disbelieved because your life experience (general or specific) is so outlandish that it boggles the minds of the Johns and Janes Doe?

For instance, did you know that Martin Scorsese used one of my ideas for the opening sequence to Taxi Driver (the close-ups of the taxi headlights with the winter season steam coming up through the manholes of busy Manhattan streets - themed by Bernard Herman)?

Because I set it up as something somewhat unbelievable, more readers are prone to believing it. But a stranger in a pub would dismiss me as "that bs artist on the end stool", probably.
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Old 16th August 2017, 10:49 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
What was the point of this thread?
The point is to advance some conspiracy, pseudoscience, or crank claim related to space, but to avoid doing so openly and honestly. We'll get there, but there hasn't been nearly enough tap-dancing yet.
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Old 17th August 2017, 12:06 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The number of people who've been to the moon is known.

Yes of course.

Quote:
I think we'd know if one of them was a member.
Nay Sayer said he went to the moon so of course I had to give him the benefit of doubt.




The thread was about people far enough away from evidence/experience that they essentially must have faith in the credibility of a reporter. "Primitive" was used in elaboration, like village chief or elder being the only source of news. Apollo was the example I chose but it could have been some other event which some people could find rater hard to believe.

Last edited by zooterkin; 17th August 2017 at 01:07 AM.
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Old 17th August 2017, 02:24 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
The thread was about people far enough away from evidence/experience that they essentially must have faith in the credibility of a reporter.
The issue here, as others have pointed out, is that there are types of evidence other than first hand reports, that bear on the question of whether or not anyone has been to the moon, or indeed on other questions as well.
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Old 17th August 2017, 03:25 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post


Yep.
.
Do you believe the Apollo 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17 successfully landed on the moon and brought their craft and crews back safely?
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Old 17th August 2017, 03:58 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
The issue here, as others have pointed out, is that there are types of evidence other than first hand reports, that bear on the question of whether or not anyone has been to the moon, or indeed on other questions as well.
The type of evidence seems irrelevant to Bubba's point.
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Old 17th August 2017, 05:43 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
The thread was about people far enough away from evidence/experience that they essentially must have faith in the credibility of a reporter.
I consider it to be the responsibility of the claimant to provide sufficient evidence to support their claim. The burden of proof is not reduced by the lack of knowledge of the listener. In fact it may be increased.

If you claim to have been to the moon and I have no knowledge that anyone has ever been there you will need to provide evidence showing that such a thing is even possible along with that supporting your claim to have been there yourself.

I see no need for having faith in the claimant. If they have in fact been to the moon and can't prove it, that is their problem, not mine.

---

"Hi, I have been to the moon. My name is Buzz Aldrin." --> "Wow! Can I see your ID?"

"Hi, I have been to the moon. Aliens abducted me and took me there." --> "Wow! Sorry, gotta go now."

Last edited by jrhowell; 17th August 2017 at 05:54 AM.
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Old 17th August 2017, 06:52 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
The type of evidence seems irrelevant to Bubba's point.
Does it? Can you expand on that? Because it seems to me to be quite relevant.

I haven't been to the moon (first hand), nor have I had conversations with those who have (second hand). I haven't even watched interviews with the Apollo astronauts talking about their experience on the moon, at least that I recall. I have heard other people talk about the moon missions, of course, but that's not the evidence that leads me to think they happened.

On the other hand, I've seen video of those people on the moon. I didn't rely on someone else telling me about it, I actually watched it. So how does Bubba's point address that kind of evidence? Or maybe I'm missing his point completely... While one could argue about whether or not those videos could have been faked, that's an entirely different issue than whether or not we see them first hand. I don't rely on someone else telling me "this is from the moon", like I would with say, a moon rock, but rather on the evidence of my own eyes seeing the video. Yes, it's not conclusive, but my point is simply that not all of the evidence that we as individuals interpret to show us that the moon landings happened is based exclusively on other people telling us things.

Similarly there were many people present at the Apollo mission launches. They may not have direct evidence that those craft went to the moon, but they do have direct evidence that they existed, that they launched without exploding on the pad or shortly after takeoff, that the amount of fuel was enough to create the rather impressive display that they saw and to launch the craft at least as high as they were able to follow it with the naked eye. Those people, at least, while they didn't go to the moon, have access to first hand evidence that may not be conclusive but is quite meaningful.

A similar case could be made for those who worked on the project.
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Old 17th August 2017, 09:26 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Does it? Can you expand on that? Because it seems to me to be quite relevant.
Because he's stated "The thread was about people far enough away from evidence/experience that they essentially must have faith in the credibility of a reporter."

So the kind of people you describe below aren't the people he's talking about.

Quote:
I haven't been to the moon (first hand), nor have I had conversations with those who have (second hand). I haven't even watched interviews with the Apollo astronauts talking about their experience on the moon, at least that I recall. I have heard other people talk about the moon missions, of course, but that's not the evidence that leads me to think they happened.

On the other hand, I've seen video of those people on the moon. I didn't rely on someone else telling me about it, I actually watched it. So how does Bubba's point address that kind of evidence? Or maybe I'm missing his point completely... While one could argue about whether or not those videos could have been faked, that's an entirely different issue than whether or not we see them first hand. I don't rely on someone else telling me "this is from the moon", like I would with say, a moon rock, but rather on the evidence of my own eyes seeing the video. Yes, it's not conclusive, but my point is simply that not all of the evidence that we as individuals interpret to show us that the moon landings happened is based exclusively on other people telling us things.

Similarly there were many people present at the Apollo mission launches. They may not have direct evidence that those craft went to the moon, but they do have direct evidence that they existed, that they launched without exploding on the pad or shortly after takeoff, that the amount of fuel was enough to create the rather impressive display that they saw and to launch the craft at least as high as they were able to follow it with the naked eye. Those people, at least, while they didn't go to the moon, have access to first hand evidence that may not be conclusive but is quite meaningful.

A similar case could be made for those who worked on the project.
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