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Tags capitalism , communism

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Old 19th June 2019, 12:40 PM   #161
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Of course I am. My choice is not unlimited, but I still make the choice.



Maybe but if I write a song and I make my living off of doing that, I'd like that sort of monopoly.

Whether that should pass on to my descendants is another question.
I don't get this idea that leaving something to your children is evil.
I think the life of the creator plus 20 years is a reasonable compromise.
The other problem I have with the anti copyright movement is a lot of it is just plain "I WANT MY STUFF FREE". SOme of the justidications by people who pirate games and movies are really outrageous.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 08:09 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No.
Yes.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 08:19 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
the infallible wisdom of the State in Marxism.
You have no idea what you are talking about. The end goal of communism, as espoused by Marx, is the abolition of the state.

Seriously, read some actual Marxist theory before you attempt to criticize it.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 09:57 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
You have no idea what you are talking about. The end goal of communism, as espoused by Marx, is the abolition of the state.

Seriously, read some actual Marxist theory before you attempt to criticize it.
Marx was a contemporary of Freud whom nobody takes seriously anymore. Every attempt at Marxism has only increased the power of the state, that is history, no matter what Marx wrote or believed. Marx believed that capitalism had a parasitic effect on the economy and that if we removed it, we wouldn't have to work as much to feed, shelter and clothe ourselves. Just the opposite is true.
Why does it matter to you what Marx thought? about anything whatsoever? Marx lived in a different era with a different data set than what is available to us today. Isn't it time we discontinue treating Marx as a prophet? When it comes to our economy, let's leave religion out of it.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 10:06 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Marx was a contemporary of Freud whom nobody takes seriously anymore.
Stephen Hawking was a contemporary of L Ron Hubbard. So they were both equally wrong because they happened to exist in roughly the same period of time?

This is the worst "argument" against Marxism I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot. Do better.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 10:14 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
You have no idea what you are talking about. The end goal of communism, as espoused by Marx, is the abolition of the state.

Seriously, read some actual Marxist theory before you attempt to criticize it.
Please, can you give some examples where the pursuit of Marxist ideas has removed the state or at least is on the path to abolition of the state?
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Old 22nd June 2019, 10:19 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Stephen Hawking was a contemporary of L Ron Hubbard. So they were both equally wrong?

This is the worst argument against Marxism I've ever seen. Do better.
and like L Ron Hubbard, Marx is a religious leader and his prophecies don't have e a great track record and Hawking is not a religious leader. Marx is just another variety of religiousness ala Hubbard. It isn't based on data or history, only sentiment.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 10:21 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Marx believed that capitalism had a parasitic effect on the economy and that if we removed it, we wouldn't have to work as much to feed, shelter and clothe ourselves. Just the opposite is true.
And I'd love to see you cite some actual evidence for this.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 10:27 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Please, can you give some examples where the pursuit of Marxist ideas has removed the state or at least is on the path to abolition of the state?
That is not the point. dudalb's claim is that Marxist theory is some sort of belief in the infallible power of the state, and that is objectively false.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 10:28 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
and like L Ron Hubbard, Marx is a religious leader and his prophecies don't have e a great track record and Hawking is not a religious leader. Marx is just another variety of religiousness ala Hubbard. It isn't based on data or history, only sentiment.
Thanks for the laugh.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 10:54 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Because private property is a thing. And most people through most of history have considered providing for their descendants after their death to be one of the most meaningful dispositions of their private property.

Not understanding this is, I think, an anti social trait.

And also a communist trait. But I repeat myself.

---

I think a lot of the anti inheritance attitude is rooted in a belief that individual wealth belongs to the state, and that the individual is merely borrowing it. They're supposed to return it to its rightful owner, not pass it on to their family and friends.
I know this thread is pages long and surely it's been mentioned, but this lie needs to stop being repeated.

The capital gains on all of that wealth has not been taxed. Why should that tax obligation be negated when the wealth changes hands?

Charge the estate tax on all the capital gains involved and you can pass what's left on.

There are very few people inheriting the family business and keeping it. You can let them roll the capital gains over if they are not liquidating a family owned business. It's not a hard problem to solve.

But all those rich asshats that voted to do away with the inheritance tax did so for purely selfish reasons.
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Old 22nd June 2019, 11:01 PM   #172
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And while I'm ranting, what the hell is wrong with a mix of capitalism where it works best and community funding where that works best?
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Old 23rd June 2019, 04:08 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I don't get this idea that leaving something to your children is evil.
Well, I certainly didn't call it evil. I just said I'm not sure about how it should work.

Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Yes.
Then you have no idea how capitalism works. If you're correct, then my family couldn't ever have gotten from farmers/milkmen to middle-class in the span of a generation.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 04:09 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
That is not the point. dudalb's claim is that Marxist theory is some sort of belief in the infallible power of the state, and that is objectively false.
That's because he's talking about the reality of how it's applied, not just the theory.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 11:11 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
You have no idea what you are talking about. The end goal of communism, as espoused by Marx, is the abolition of the state.
Just another example of how delusional Marx's thinking was. He assumed the state would wither away. In fact the most repressive and totalitarian states of the last 100 years have all been communist. And this is a feature of communism, not some bug. The only way to ensure equality of outcomes is at gunpoint.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 11:28 AM   #176
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Here is a good read on why Karl Popper describes Marx and Freud as pseudoscience.
https://fs.blog/2016/01/karl-popper-...pseudoscience/
Quote:
I found that those of my friends who were admirers of Marx, Freud, and Adler, were impressed by a number of points common to these theories, and especially by their apparent explanatory power. These theories appeared to be able to explain practically everything that happened within the fields to which they referred. The study of any of them seemed to have the effect of an intellectual conversion or revelation, opening your eyes to a new truth hidden from those not yet initiated. Once your eyes were thus opened you saw confirming instances everywhere: the world was full of verifications of the theory.

Whatever happened always confirmed it. Thus its truth appeared manifest; and unbelievers were clearly people who did not want to see the manifest truth; who refused to see it, either because it was against their class interest, or because of their repressions which were still ‘un-analysed’ and crying aloud for treatment.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 12:15 PM   #177
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Too bad it's not in English. Do you understand German? Wissenschaftskritik: Karl Popper
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd June 2019, 12:22 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Too bad it's not in English. Do you understand German? Wissenschaftskritik: Karl Popper
nur ein bisschen
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Old 23rd June 2019, 01:44 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Too bad it's not in English. Do you understand German? Wissenschaftskritik: Karl Popper
The guy from blues traveler
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Old 23rd June 2019, 04:08 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
You have no idea what you are talking about. The end goal of communism, as espoused by Marx, is the abolition of the state.



Seriously, read some actual Marxist theory before you attempt to criticize it.
Marx didn't espouse communism, he predicted it.

And abolition of the state isn't a goal of Marxist communism, it's a predicted result of the process.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 07:17 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And while I'm ranting, what the hell is wrong with a mix of capitalism where it works best and community funding where that works best?
Absolutely nothing but I would argue that "community funding" and social spending is not Socialism at all. Many Nordic model countries have both more capitalism and more social spending than the USA. All successful modern economies have both private and public sectors. We can argue about what belongs where but they both must exist and if the public sector is completely funded by the private sector, it seems that we would wish for its success and not condemn it as a force of evil or that these sectors are in conflict with each other when they are interdependent and benefit each other.
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Old 24th June 2019, 12:56 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Absolutely nothing but I would argue that "community funding" and social spending is not Socialism at all.
You could argue that, but you would be going against popular usage of the word.

Socialism: A short primer
Quote:
Not one economically advanced society can be described as purely capitalist; every one of them is a mixed economy that includes some elements of socialism. Medicare and Social Security are, in a sense, socialist, and so are our public schools and universities, our community colleges, our water supplies and sewers, and our mass transit systems. Municipally owned and built sports stadiums are forms of socialism...

And from Franklin Roosevelt to Barack Obama, conservatives have made it a point to charge their Democratic foes with being socialists, no matter how many speeches they made in praise of the market....Barack Obama’s health care plan, which was a very long way from a single payer system, was regularly denounced as socialist.
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Old 24th June 2019, 04:02 AM   #183
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I keep reading this thread title as "Fully Automated Luxury Communion" and imagining vending machines dispensing artisanal wafers and boutique wines.
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Old 24th June 2019, 04:54 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Marx didn't espouse communism, he predicted it.

You seem to have read only Popper's distorted presentation of Marx. This is what Wikipedia says about The Communist Manifesto (1848), which he and Engels wrote when they were still fairly young:

Quote:
The introduction begins by proclaiming: "A spectre is haunting Europe—the spectre of communism. All the powers of old Europe have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre". Pointing out that parties everywhere—including those in government and those in the opposition—have flung the "branding reproach of communism" at each other, the authors infer from this that the powers-that-be acknowledge communism to be a power in itself. Subsequently, the introduction exhorts Communists to openly publish their views and aims, to "meet this nursery tale of the spectre of communism with a manifesto of the party itself".

In this respect, nothing has really changed: Just like Trump, Capitalsm can't exist without lies.

Quote:
And abolition of the state isn't a goal of Marxist communism, it's a predicted result of the process.

Marx can be blamed for some of his 'optimisms'. He didn't make any serious predictions. When he described the accumulation and concentration of capital in still fewer hands, he was describing a process that was already happening, not making predictions about what would happen some day in the near or far future. He pointed out the directions that capitalism was already going and described how it creates the conditions that will destroy it some day if people decide to do away with it, for instance the necessity of teaching the working classes to read and write, thus enabling them to read not only psalms and hymns but also communist pamphlets. However, it still requires that the working classes use these acquired skills to actually read (and/or or hear) about and [i]understand[i] why capitalism and having to work as laborers is a way to enrich and empower capitalists and impoverish workers (and even more so, the unemployed and the unemployable, of course).
Since the state is meant to keep this way of things going by means of violence, force and power, i.e. by securing the property of capitalists, on the one hand, against the impoverished classes, on the other, i.e. law & order, the abolition of the state is obviously the goal of communism.
However, if you have the naïve idea that the state is nothing but an entity that coordinates the creation of infrastructure etc., it would be absurd to expect something like that to become obsolete in communism. People will still have to deal with things that individuals can't handle on their own (or can't handle efficiently): sewers, energy supply, health care, education, etc.
The state is not your friend if you're an ordinary person, i.e. if you belong to the 90%.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th June 2019, 05:04 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Absolutely nothing but I would argue that "community funding" and social spending is not Socialism at all. Many Nordic model countries have both more capitalism and more social spending than the USA. All successful modern economies have both private and public sectors. We can argue about what belongs where but they both must exist and if the public sector is completely funded by the private sector, it seems that we would wish for its success and not condemn it as a force of evil or that these sectors are in conflict with each other when they are interdependent and benefit each other.

If you care about people's lives and heath, and one 'sector' couldn't care less (Wikipedia), I don't see why we should "not condemn it as a force of evil".
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th June 2019, 12:19 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Just another example of how delusional Marx's thinking was. He assumed the state would wither away.

Any attempt to marginalize democratically elected government running the state is going to produce similar results. Once you create a power vacuums authoritarians have always been there to step into it and freed from the restrictions imposed by democratic governments they generally succeed.


Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
In fact the most repressive and totalitarian states of the last 100 years have all been communist.
You seem to be ignoring the the fascists regimes, like NAZI Germany and the pseudo monarchies like North Korea.
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