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Old 20th July 2009, 04:11 AM   #41
T.A.M.
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Originally Posted by americanpatriot View Post
Thank you all for confirming the worst of my suspicions. You dish out red herrings and ad hominem attacks. But, not one of you have responded to the post in its essence - our protectors who were tasked with defending America on 9/11 failed to do so and yet they were rewarded with promotions. Not one of you has responded to much less questioned that fact. By your tacit approbation, it can be inferred that you all support failure to protect America. That makes you unpatriotic. God bless America.
Being Canadian, I could care less. If I were American though, I would simply say,

"You are most welcome. Please don't let the door hit you on the way out!"

TAM
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Old 20th July 2009, 04:29 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
Being Canadian, I could care less. If I were American though, I would simply say,

"You are most welcome. Please don't let the door hit you on the way out!"

TAM
And I am not even on said continent...
(But certain thing was supposed to be build here.)
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Old 20th July 2009, 04:48 AM   #43
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This is one of the more interesting points the twoof try to raise.

Though the OP is wrong. no ONE was held accountable, but the 9/11 commission report was much more DAMNING of the ENTIRE system. It was a systematic failure of MULTIPLE individuals and agencies. That is a much harder indictment of the SYSTEM.

I find the claim that "no one was fired, arrested or demoted" due to 9/11 to be an interesting tid bit.

With the intelligence failures, intra agency bickering, and the success of the attacks I believe that people should have lost their jobs or been demoted.

Now with that said, I'm not sure that many folks didn't recieve reprimands or demotions.

I never trust a list of "suspects" from the twoofs w/out checking them out myself.
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Old 20th July 2009, 05:13 AM   #44
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The OP slanders many members of the military who could have done nothing more that day. Especially when you see what warning they were given. The OP is a cowardly hit and run.
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Old 20th July 2009, 06:19 AM   #45
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Daddy must have had to work late again.
You never did answer me about what you've done. Anything?
Yeah, all hat, no cowboy. Yet again.
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Old 20th July 2009, 07:30 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by americanpatriot View Post

10. Therefore to support the official 9/11 government story is to support the terrorists.
Truthers say the most interesting things.

Now THEY are the ones saying that we support terrorists. Don't they hate it when folks accuse them of supporting terrorism?

Oh...oh..the irony.

Last edited by Thunder; 20th July 2009 at 07:31 AM.
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Old 20th July 2009, 07:46 AM   #47
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In 1988 the town bully stole my red wagon.

1. It is the job of government -- military, NORAD, FAA, FBI - to defend and protect my red wagon.

2. Those in government whose job it is to protect us should be held accountable for their failures.

3. On March 15, 1988 - whether by incompetence or by design - our government failed to protect my red wagon.

4. By their failures, our protectors in effect, allowed the bully to succeed.

5. No one was held accountable for the failures of March 15, 1988. There were no court martial's, no demotions, no firings, no punishments, no reprimands.

6. Moreover, the very people who were specifically assigned and failed to protect my red wagon from theft and defend my rights to a red wagon were actually rewarded with promotions:

Sheriff Nutting got reelected twice before retiring for health reasons.

Officer Boll became a Lieutenant.

Crossing Guard Shelly became a bus driver.

Old Ms. Gear mercifully died of the cancer that kept her in pain.

The bully went to Stanford and became a biologist.

7. There is no seven because I hate the number seven.

8. Because all these people who failed to protect my red wagon were instead rewarded - either in spite of or because of their failures on March 15, 1988 - they de facto benefited from the success of the theft of my red wagon.

9. Therefore, to support the official "red wagon theft" government story is to support those who benefited from the success of the red wagon theft.

10. Therefore to support the official "red wagon theft" government story is to support the thieves of red wagons.
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Old 20th July 2009, 07:50 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by alienentity View Post
Dude, you are on a roll! AP - that had to hurt.

Strictly speaking, the proper appellation would be 'dude-ette' but I think she prefers the moniker 'Goddess of LegaltainmentTM'

All hail the Quee--(coughs) All hail the Goddess!

Queedess?
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Old 20th July 2009, 08:03 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by americanpatriot View Post
By your tacit approbation, it can be inferred that you all support failure to protect America.

Hey somebody bought a Thesaurus.

You know Roget was British. Traitor.
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Old 20th July 2009, 08:05 AM   #50
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All this guy has yet to say is that we should all be put on trial for treason and sent to FEMA re-education camps.
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Old 20th July 2009, 08:14 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by americanpatriot View Post
9. Therefore, to support the official 9/11 government story is to support those who benefited from the success of the terrorist attacks.
Do you contest that it was the 19 Islamic terrorists from Al Qaeda that perpetrated those attacks? Because, you know... that is the official story.

If not, then you are not talking about conspiracy theories, and this thread should be moved.
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Old 20th July 2009, 08:35 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by longfellow View Post
Strictly speaking, the proper appellation would be 'dude-ette'...
Actually, it is "dudine," but then common useage may be messing with the language again and dudette might supplant the original.

[End derail]
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Old 20th July 2009, 09:03 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by americanpatriot View Post
Thank you all for confirming the worst of my suspicions. You dish out red herrings and ad hominem attacks. But, not one of you have responded to the post in its essence - our protectors who were tasked with defending America on 9/11 failed to do so and yet they were rewarded with promotions. Not one of you has responded to much less questioned that fact. By your tacit approbation, it can be inferred that you all support failure to protect America. That makes you unpatriotic. God bless America.
Well,

What makes you think that any of the members here who are American would ever need, or want, to prove their patriotism to someone like you? I mean, patriotism is a very personal thing for many people, myself included. And as such, I've only ever felt the need to prove my patriotism to one person-me.

The shrapnel in my leg, and my DD-214 satisfy my own personal need to confirm my patriotism. So, since I have nothing to prove, I have no need to engage in a futile and pointless argument with a person like you who makes broad accusations and presumptions about a rather large group of people whom you have never even met, and know nothing about.

L.

Last edited by Lupie; 20th July 2009 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 20th July 2009, 09:10 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by americanpatriot View Post
Thank you all for confirming the worst of my suspicions. You dish out red herrings and ad hominem attacks. But, not one of you have responded to the post in its essence - our protectors who were tasked with defending America on 9/11 failed to do so and yet they were rewarded with promotions. Not one of you has responded to much less questioned that fact. By your tacit approbation, it can be inferred that you all support failure to protect America. That makes you unpatriotic. God bless America.
You are in complete ignorance of the military, NORAD, and you whole post is a delusion based on your ignorance; this is a fact, and you provided the overwhelming evidence. This makes you a terrorist apologist for not gaining knowledge before freely producing moronic false statement.
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Old 20th July 2009, 10:26 AM   #55
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Travis, I'm still not giving you back your red wagon. So there!
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Old 20th July 2009, 11:28 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am View Post
Promotions in the US Military are hard coded into the system. After X number of years at your present rank you must present yourself for consideration for promotion regardless of what you have or haven't achieved. The decision to promote is made months before you are frocked to that rank and up to a year before you actually make that pay grade even though you may start to bear the responsibility of that rank up to a year before you are paid for it.

This is true for both officer and enlisted with the difference that if an officer is passed over three times he is retired after trying to go from O-4 to O-5, but an enlisted can keep trying.

My point is that saying that someone who was promoted a few months after 9/11 indicates that there was a massive failure in the system or that they were "In on it" doesn't know squat about how military promotions work.
You're 80 percent right. Most enlisted ranks require you to take a written test, and have completed certain skill-related training modules. Of course, you can't even MAKE rank if the quota isn't there for you.

Officers, you're dead on though.
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Old 20th July 2009, 12:47 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts View Post
You're 80 percent right. Most enlisted ranks require you to take a written test, and have completed certain skill-related training modules. Of course, you can't even MAKE rank if the quota isn't there for you.

Officers, you're dead on though.
Actually I think I'm right on both as I didn't say how enlisted presented themselves. I was enlisted for over 8 years and got out an E-6 (TM1(SS)). All it takes is time in rank, pass the rating test, good evals and then they give points for certain medals (good conduct, warfare badges ect). You're right about not going up unless there's a billet open though. I knew a few sonar techs who had been stuck at E5 for several years beyond being eligible for promotion because there weren't any openings in that rating. That had a lot to do with most of them getting promoted to E4 coming out of A school and then they reenlisted a year later to get promoted to E5. Yes a 2 year E5, most people at 2 years in are lucky to make E4. Anyway, they were usually stuck at that pay grade for at least 5 or 6 years and you can't reenlist your way up from E5 to E6.
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Old 20th July 2009, 01:12 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by JimBenArm View Post
Travis, I'm still not giving you back your red wagon. So there!
That's okay, I've moved onto skateboards.
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Old 20th July 2009, 02:03 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am View Post
Actually I think I'm right on both as I didn't say how enlisted presented themselves. I was enlisted for over 8 years and got out an E-6 (TM1(SS)). All it takes is time in rank, pass the rating test, good evals and then they give points for certain medals (good conduct, warfare badges ect). You're right about not going up unless there's a billet open though. I knew a few sonar techs who had been stuck at E5 for several years beyond being eligible for promotion because there weren't any openings in that rating. That had a lot to do with most of them getting promoted to E4 coming out of A school and then they reenlisted a year later to get promoted to E5. Yes a 2 year E5, most people at 2 years in are lucky to make E4. Anyway, they were usually stuck at that pay grade for at least 5 or 6 years and you can't reenlist your way up from E5 to E6.
Yeah. I was one of those 2-year E-5's. Wound up being a 5-year E-6 and then getting out at six years as an EW1(SW).
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Old 20th July 2009, 07:07 PM   #60
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Not sure about the other branches, but speaking from the officer perspective in the Army, the time frame is generally 1.5 years from 2LT to 1LT (no board required) and another 1.5 years from 1LT to CPT (paperwork sent to a board). You then languish in the CPT rank for anywhere from 6 to 10 years (after six, you can submit your paperwork for promotion if you've met the standards, which include the requirement that you serve two years in a staff position and two years in a company/battery command position), before you are promoted to MAJ. I believe you sit in the MAJ rank for 4-6 years before you are eligible for promotion to LTC, and anywhere from 3-5 years as LTC before you are eligible for promotion to COL. As for the general ranks... heck, I have no idea. But overall it is a timeframe issue, with the caveat that there are requirements that must be met, and there have been instances where people have been one rank or another longer than normal due to extenuating circumstances (flagged for whatever reason, or they were in the IRR)

Now that the military lesson is over, I must say I've spent this entire thread laughing at the thought that some random person who's probably never served in the military in his/her/its LIFE could possibly measure my patriotism as a US Army Captain. I was still in college when 9/11 happened, granted, but I was about 2 months away from getting commissioned as a 2LT and had spent all of my college years as a cadet in the ROTC division at my college, and personally I believe the military and the government were operating that day with little or no information and did their utter best. That's not to say mistakes weren't made; they were, very definitely, but as someone else on this thread has said, hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20, and looking back now to bemoan what we didn't do then is utterly pointless. But then, so was the initial posting, from what I can tell. In any case, carry on; I'll be sitting over here laughing some more at the whole premise.
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Old 20th July 2009, 07:52 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by americanpatriot View Post
Thank you all for confirming the worst of my suspicions. You dish out red herrings and ad hominem attacks. But, not one of you have responded to the post in its essence - our protectors who were tasked with defending America on 9/11 failed to do so and yet they were rewarded with promotions. Not one of you has responded to much less questioned that fact. By your tacit approbation, it can be inferred that you all support failure to protect America. That makes you unpatriotic. God bless America.
These claims prove you know nothing about anyone in this forum. Since you did not take the time to discover the character of those who post here, that makes you a fraud.
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Old 20th July 2009, 08:09 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
looking back now to bemoan what we didn't do then is utterly pointless.
I disagree. Lessons learned and all that. The critique of what was done right and what was done wrong is never pointless. We studied every drill, evolution and emergency after the fact to see what we could do better, where we made errors, what procedures might need to be changed and so on. We never failed an inspection or board because of it. In fact I'd go far enough to say that not doing so is just plain laziness on the part of the command and is an invitation to disaster later on.
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Old 20th July 2009, 08:41 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by americanpatriot View Post
1. It is the job of government -- military, NORAD, FAA, FBI - to defend and protect America.

2. Those in government whose job it is to protect us should be held accountable for their failures.

3. On 9/11 - whether by incompetence or by design - our government failed to protect America.

4. By their failures our protectors in effect allowed the terrorists to succeed.

5. No one was held accountable for the failures of 9/11. There were no court martials, no demotions, no firings, no punishments, no reprimands.

6. Moreover, the very people who were specifically assigned and failed to protect America from terrorism and defend the country on 9/11 were actually rewarded with promotions:

- Air Force General Richard B. Myers, accountable for all military forces of the USA, was promoted to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs two days later;

- NORAD Commander in Chief General Ralph Eberhart was promoted to chief of Northern Command;

- Navy Capt. Charles Leidig, assigned to be director of operations at the National Military Command Center on the morning of 9/11 by order of Army Brigadier General W. Montague Winfield issued on 9/10/01 - was promoted to Rear Admiral;

- Army Brigadier General W. Montague Winfield, who resumed his duties, replacing Leidig as director of the NMCC, after the Pentagon was struck on 9/11, was promoted to Major General;

- Air Force Brigadier General David F. Wherley Jr., head of command at Andrews AFB, the nearest air-base to the Pentagon, was promoted to Major General;

- Ben Sliney, who was at his first day of work as FAA national operations manager on 9/11, was promoted;

- Admiral Steve Abbot, head of Dick Cheney's terrorism task force, the National Preparedness Review, was promoted to Deputy Director at Homeland Security;

- FBI head of National Security Law Unit Marion "Spike" Bowman, who blocked urgent requests by FBI agents to begin searching for hijacker Khalid Almihdhar after his name was put on a watch list, was issued a 25% salary bonus, a presidential citation, and FBI award for exceptional performance;

- Pasquale D’Amuro, the FBI’s counterterrorism chief on 9/11 in New York City, was promoted to the top counterterrorism post after the attack;

- Supervisor Michael Maltbie at FBI's Radical Fundamentalist Unit, who threatened FBI Agent Harry Samit, warning that pursuing terrorist Zacarias Moussaioui would jeopardize Samit's career, was promoted to the Joint Terrorism Task Force at the FBI’s Cleveland office after 9/11;

- FBI's chief of the Radical Fundamentalist Unit David Frasca, who ignored FBI memos warning that al Qaeda terrorists were training to be pilots, who prevented FBI agents from obtaining a search warrant on Moussaoui's belongings, and who obstructed investigations into Moussaoui after 9/11, was conspicuously not fired;

8. Because all these people who failed to protect America were instead rewarded - either in spite of or because of their failures on 9/11 - they de facto benefited from the success of the terrorist attacks.

9. Therefore, to support the official 9/11 government story is to support those who benefited from the success of the terrorist attacks.

10. Therefore to support the official 9/11 government story is to support the terrorists.

God bless America.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

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Americanpatriot, you hate America. End of story.

PS: You know nothing of Benjamin Franklin.
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Old 20th July 2009, 08:44 PM   #64
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Another terrorist apologist claiming to be a patriot. Sick.
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Old 20th July 2009, 08:49 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by americanpatriot View Post
Thank you all for confirming the worst of my suspicions. You dish out red herrings and ad hominem attacks. But, not one of you have responded to the post in its essence - our protectors who were tasked with defending America on 9/11 failed to do so and yet they were rewarded with promotions. Not one of you has responded to much less questioned that fact. By your tacit approbation, it can be inferred that you all support failure to protect America. That makes you unpatriotic. God bless America.
I served on active duty with the Air Force during the Viet Nam war. Some good friends died in that war. Another good friend was in the Pentagon on 9/11 and helped save lives. FDNY friends, with whom I trained in various fire schools, put their lives at risk at the WTC on 9/11, and some never came home. I know American patriots. You, sir, are no American patriot.
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Old 20th July 2009, 09:01 PM   #66
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Well, this thread has taught me one thing, that's for sure.

I had no idea Sabrina was an officer. I'm going to have to clean up my language around her now.
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Old 20th July 2009, 09:12 PM   #67
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Note that she WAS an officer. She may complain, but she's heard it all before and can do nothing about it now. At ease, Joey.
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Old 20th July 2009, 09:14 PM   #68
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ahem, guys... she still IS an officer. I'm the guy that's no longer in. That made for some good phone calls though. I'd say something snarky, she'd say "at ease, sergeant" and I'd go "are you pulling rank on the phone?"
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Old 20th July 2009, 09:17 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts View Post
Well, this thread has taught me one thing, that's for sure.

I had no idea Sabrina was an officer. I'm going to have to clean up my language around her now.
O-Gangers put on their pants one leg at a time just like everyone else. Besides, she was an O3. They were always my favorites. They knew what they were doing and when to look the other way when it was a no harm/no foul situation. O4's and above start getting persnickety over stuff that didn't matter one bit just because they could and they're looking out for their careers more than for their guys. O1's and O2's were still wet behind the ears and usually required a lot of hand holding on the ways of the world and how there was the right way, the wrong way and the Army/ Navy/ Air Force/ Marine way.
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Old 20th July 2009, 09:22 PM   #70
JoeyDonuts
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Quote:
O-Gangers put on their pants one leg at a time just like everyone else. Besides, she was an O3. They were always my favorites. They knew what they were doing and when to look the other way when it was a no harm/no foul situation.
This may actually surprise you, but I have actually seen, gotten drunk with, had my ass chewed by, chewed the ass of, and carried officers before.

I typed that in there because I was fairly sure Sabrina would get a chuckle out of it.

Can't fault you for not being here long enough to get that. Besides, it always takes bubbleheads a while to get their bearings whenever they pop their heads up someplace new.

I'm right there with you on the O-3 mentality, though. Very rarely did I find one I didn't get along with.
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Old 20th July 2009, 09:25 PM   #71
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Feh, all I know is that she has a hot avatar and the UCMJ has no effect on me, unless she were to try.


ETA: And yeah, there are times I regret having not joined up, but they had this shootin' war going on and it seemed like a poor time to volunteer in case I were sent somewhere with a climate I did not prefer. Had it been New Zealand with little chance of me being killed, that woulda been a different story, but it was a bit north of there. And Sam kept making the offer, but he never got insistent, since I was #273.

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Old 20th July 2009, 09:28 PM   #72
JoeyDonuts
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You're scared of a little thing like the UCMJ?

Buddy, I'll tell you the same thing I told my old Division Officer who once threatened me with a bad eval.

Originally Posted by Me
"Sir, the only way you can hurt me with that piece of paper is if you roll it up, fill it with rat poison, and shove it up my ass."
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Old 20th July 2009, 09:34 PM   #73
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Bro, I was scared of the VC and the NVA.

In another life I research for an author and have been assigned to learn what happened to a grunt who overstayed his leave in Saigon. Studying the UCMJ I found that it pretty much depends on his CO and could go anywhere between a couple days confined to barracks and [del]hanging[/del] hard time in Leavenworth. I felt useless not being able to give an absolute reason but, as an Air Force brat, that's how it is.
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Old 20th July 2009, 10:02 PM   #74
Sam.I.Am
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Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts View Post
This may actually surprise you, but I have actually seen, gotten drunk with, had my ass chewed by, chewed the ass of, and carried officers before.

I typed that in there because I was fairly sure Sabrina would get a chuckle out of it.

Can't fault you for not being here long enough to get that. Besides, it always takes bubbleheads a while to get their bearings whenever they pop their heads up someplace new.

I'm right there with you on the O-3 mentality, though. Very rarely did I find one I didn't get along with.
I've taken a catnap in the wardroom more than once while waiting on the duty officer. Submarines are way more laid back than the surface navy in general, all of our food comes from the same galley, there is no chiefs mess, you're just as likely to see a first class crawling into a tight spot to field day as a seaman and so on. I'm glad I went that route and would recommend it to anyone that doesn't mind some hard work and the cramped conditions. You get paid more, you get more time off (in port and off-crew) you get fed the best and the a**h*** to laid back guy ratio is very little of the former and a lot of the latter, at all ranks really because the former don't last very long.

*begin sea story*

We had a 2nd class yoeman cross over from aircraft carriers to submarines. He brought along his surface ship attitude, big mistake. I was standing watch as topside Petty officer (quarterdeck watch to you guys) when he checked aboard. I was a seaman at the time and he got all huffy when I didn't give him the respect that he thought he deserved. As far as we all were concerned anyone who wasn't qualified ships was an O2 load and dangerous in a casualty. He continued with the attitude and had a really miserable time because of it. Usually yoemen and cooks get a pretty easy ride qualifying because they are almost always in their workspaces so the basics is good enough, not that guy. He probably knew more about the engine room than I did by the time they were done with him. And I had equipment back there. He had the old Trash Disposal Unit ball valve (18" of titainium) placed on his bunk, his laundry was 'Forgotten' more than a few times (too bad, do it yourself or wait 'till next week. Oh BTW are you checked out on using the laundry machines?) and so on. He finally got it and mellowed out a little bit but it took him almost a year to get there.

*end sea story*
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Old 20th July 2009, 10:17 PM   #75
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Wow. We need our own thread. For real. There's actually quite a few of us here.

Look for it in community.
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Old 20th July 2009, 10:58 PM   #76
bio
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you are so right, very good work.

It must be embarrassing, nevertheless to follow the official theory.
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January 10, 2003, Senator Charles Grassley (R):
"not only has no one in government been fired or punished for 9/11, but several others have been promoted."

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Old 20th July 2009, 11:54 PM   #77
JoeyDonuts
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Oh wow.

This guy.

Bring anything to the table this time, or are you just going to complain about the food that's already there?
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Old 21st July 2009, 04:14 AM   #78
T.A.M.
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Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
Feh, all I know is that she has a hot avatar and the UCMJ has no effect on me, unless she were to try.


ETA: And yeah, there are times I regret having not joined up, but they had this shootin' war going on and it seemed like a poor time to volunteer in case I were sent somewhere with a climate I did not prefer. Had it been New Zealand with little chance of me being killed, that woulda been a different story, but it was a bit north of there. And Sam kept making the offer, but he never got insistent, since I was #273.
You should see her real pics. Even as a married man, I am not blind, and Sabrina, I can tell you, is a very fine looking woman.

TAM
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Old 21st July 2009, 09:54 AM   #79
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If anyone is unpatriotic is the twoofers. They go on and on about how the government threatens the government engineers and other people with their jobs and families with no evidence of that. But yet its them who are doing the threatning. They've threatened Val McClatchey, firemen and even Mark Roberts. I also find it very hypocritical that the governement fakes this and that but yet Stephen Jones is the one doing the faking. Does the photo of firemen looking down on molten metal ring a bell? Searching for the truth is one thing, threatning people is another and is as unpatriotic as you can get.
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Old 21st July 2009, 11:01 AM   #80
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Just the fact that they link to so many Nazi sites is proof enough to me that the twoofers are enemies of civilization, or useful idiots in the service of the Organization, chomping at the bit to start the RaHoWa, thinking that they are fighting for Da Twoof.
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