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Old 1st August 2009, 11:55 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts View Post
I was in the service while Rummy was SECDEF. I didn't particularly approve of the way things went. Our OPTEMPO was ratcheted up to a strain our people and equipment couldn't handle. As a result, we had extended shipyard periods just trying to keep the engineering plant firing. I realize a lot of this has to do with SECNAV and the CNO - and by extension CINCLANT, the DESRON commander, and the unit CO - but Rumsfeld was at the helm during this period and bears a lot of the responsibility. I know this seems like a case of the post-game "sour grapes," but we wound up doing a lot of work at sea that should have been done pierside.
I gotta tell you, Joey, that to this never-in-the-military civilian, this post is damned near unreadable.
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Old 2nd August 2009, 12:28 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by americanpatriot View Post
1. To accept at face value the word of an administration with a demonstrated propensity for prevarication is to practice self deception.
You might want to specify which administration. I'm going to assume you mean the Bush admin. You'll find most posters here don't dispute that the Bush administration dodged, arm-twisted, and in some cases flat-out fabricated in support of their agenda.

That's a far cry from organizing, manning, and executing the largest single terror attack in history on their own citizens. For everything they were, they weren't THAT.

Quote:
2. Osama bin Laden is the "prime suspect" in last Tuesday's terrorist attacks in New York and Washington and the United States wants to capture him, President Bush said Monday... "I want justice," Bush said... At the Pentagon, Bush and military officials discussed details for the call-up of 35,000 military reservists, which the president authorized last week. (CNN 9/17/01)
Organizing things numerically doesn't always make them more supportive of a given point. If anything it raises the question of whether or not you're suffering from Asperger's.

Quote:
3. "The goal has never been to get bin Laden," said General Richard Myers, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff. (CNN 4/6/02) "I truly am not that concerned about him [bin Laden]." (White House Prese Conference, 3/13/02)
Cherry-picked. Out of context. Read "The Looming Tower."

CJCS said this because he was privy to intelligence that the main gear-turners behind 9/11 had been identified. Osama Bin Laden, while the symbolic head of Al-Qaeda, couldn't have accomplished much without people like KSM, Imad al-Mugniyah, and Ramzi Bin-Yousef bringing their considerable experience to the table.

Quote:
4. Therefore, the Bush Administration demonstrated a propensity for prevarication at the expense of our troops.
I think you're taking quite a leap here, although I will agree that to allocate resources to the war in Iraq was wasteful and unnecessary, given that the only real operational connection to AQ was through the Ansar al-Islam group that operated in the mountainous areas. Saddam didn't have much tolerance for Fundamental Islam. That's not to put a point in his favor, he pretty much brutally oppressed everybody.

Quote:
5. Therefore to accept at face value the Bush Administration's 9/11 story is to practice self-deception at the expense of our troops.
You started off with the inkling of a rational thought, but then you shot it to hell with this one. This is the kind of half-baked, amateurish connect-the-dots thinking that continues to impair people pushing the 9/11 conspiracy angle.

Call out the Bush Adminstration for what they DID do and I'll back you up 110 percent. Throw out some baseless crap like this, and I'll call you what you are.

Quote:
God bless America.
America doesn't need the blessing of an invisible Sky Daddy. It needs rational, thinking, level-headed people at the till. I like to think we have one of those now. You know what America doesn't need?

Your theories. Pull your head out.
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Old 2nd August 2009, 12:30 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I gotta tell you, Joey, that to this never-in-the-military civilian, this post is damned near unreadable.
You want some crackers with that acronym soup?
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Old 2nd August 2009, 12:33 AM   #124
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Ok, SECDEF is Secretary of Defense

OPTEMPO is the speed of operations. DoD adopted "operations tempo" as a measure of the pace of an operation or operations in terms of equipment usage -- aircraft "flying hours," ship "steaming days" or "tank [driving] miles." In the military way, the term became jargon: optempo.

SECNAV is Secretary of the Navy
CNO is Chief of Naval Operations
CINCLANT is Commander In Chief, Atlantic Fleet
DESRON Is an acronyn fro Destroyer Squadron
CO is Commanding Officer.

Hope that helps.
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Old 2nd August 2009, 12:59 AM   #125
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Thanks buddy. What a wicked pissah.
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Old 2nd August 2009, 06:42 AM   #126
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Yes Sir!! Did you see the Yankees get spanked by the White Sox last night?? Wicked pissah of a game!!

Did I get all those acronymns correct??

In the military, even three letter words get acronymns. Ie: Job = MOS.
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Old 2nd August 2009, 09:56 AM   #127
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I think Americanpatriot misspelled his username, it's spelled "p-a-r-r-o-t".

There's no point in discussing with him if he's not going to acknowledge and respond to our posts.
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Old 2nd August 2009, 12:13 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by triforcharity View Post
Ok, SECDEF is Secretary of Defense

OPTEMPO is the speed of operations. DoD adopted "operations tempo" as a measure of the pace of an operation or operations in terms of equipment usage -- aircraft "flying hours," ship "steaming days" or "tank [driving] miles." In the military way, the term became jargon: optempo.

SECNAV is Secretary of the Navy
CNO is Chief of Naval Operations
CINCLANT is Commander In Chief, Atlantic Fleet
DESRON Is an acronyn fro Destroyer Squadron
CO is Commanding Officer.

Hope that helps.
It does. I could guess some of them (SECDEF) and infer most of the others. But mostly I was just pulling Joey's leg a tad for the fun of it.
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Old 2nd August 2009, 01:36 PM   #129
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He also keep posting that list without acknowledging the guy/website he copied it from.....
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Old 2nd August 2009, 02:33 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
He also keep posting that list without acknowledging the guy/website he copied it from.....
Who's that then? I don't get around in the seedy "Knockturn Alley" of Internet Kookery.
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Old 8th August 2009, 12:47 PM   #131
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sacrificial US troops, again

a. To accept without question the word of an administration with a demonstrated propensity for prevarication is to practice self deception.

b. Osama bin Laden is the "prime suspect" in last Tuesday's terrorist attacks in New York and Washington and the United States wants to capture him, President Bush said Monday... "I want justice," Bush said... At the Pentagon, Bush and military officials discussed details for the call-up of 35,000 military reservists, which the president authorized last week. (CNN 9/17/01)

c. There is voluminous evidence that Bin Laden, on 9/11 and afterwards, remained a protected CIA asset. Here's a brief sampling (there is much more):

- The Taliban agreed to give up bin Laden to the U.S. only to be rebuffed by the State Department. (Village Voice 1/2/02)

- A plan to use a Hellfire missile from a Predator drone against bin Laden was repeatedly foiled. By September 4, 2001 in a Bush cabinet meeting to discuss terrorism, the Predator assassination plan was completely vetoed by CIA Director George Tenet. (Washington Post 10/2/02)

- FBI agent John O'Neill complained bitterly that the U.S. State Department blocked attempts to prove bin Laden's guilt. ... O'Neill said there was clear evidence in Yemen of bin Laden's guilt in the bombing of the USS Cole... but that the State Department prevented him from getting it. (Irish Times 11/19/01)

- The agencies were told to back off investigating the bin Ladens and Saudi royals and that angered agents... FBI Headquarters told us they could not comment on our findings. (BBC11/6/01)

- The US combat commander in Afghanistan [Gen. Tommy Franks] said Thursday that apprehending Osama bin Laden isn't one of the missions of Operation Enduring Storm. "We have not said that Osama bin Laden is a target of this effort." (USA Today 11/23/01)

- Former FBI translator Sibel Edmonds dropped a bombshell on the Mike Malloy radio show ... In the interview, Sibel says that the US maintained 'intimate relations' with Bin Laden, and the Taliban, "all the way until that day of September 11." (Daily Kos 7/31/09) [The Department of Justice's Inspector General and several senators have called FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds extremely credible. (NY Times 1/14/05)]

- Two months before September 11 Osama bin Laden flew to Dubai for 10 days for treatment at the American hospital, where he was visited by the local CIA agent, according to the French newspaper Le Figaro [which is owned by the Carlyle Group]. (Guardian 11/1/01)

- On September 10, 2001, bin Laden received kidney dialysis at a Pakistani military hospital in Rawalpindi [Pakistan is a US military ally].(CBS News, 1/28/02)

- CIA Commander: U.S. Let bin Laden Slip Away (Newsweek 8/15/05)

- America Could Have Killed Usama bin Laden — But Didn't (Fox News 10/23/07)

- An FBI informant had hosted and rented a room to two hijackers in 2000 and that, when the Inquiry sought to interview the informant, the FBI refused outright, and then hid him in an unknown location, and that a high-level FBI official stated these blocking maneuvers were undertaken under orders from the White House. (Newsweek 9/16/02)

Therefore, evidence demonstrates that Osama bin Laden was a protected asset who played the official role of a convenient patsy for 9/11.

d. Therefore, the Bush Administration demonstrated a propensity for prevarication at the expense of the lives of our troops.

e. Therefore, to accept without question the Bush Administration's 9/11 story is to practice self-deception - at the expense of our soldiers' lives.
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Old 8th August 2009, 12:56 PM   #132
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americanpatriot, you received some pretty well though out and rational replies to your points. Ignoring them and simply reposting the same points as if that somehow makes them "righter" won't win you any allies.

Dare to be something other than an ignorant ideologue who simply parrots what he is told by others while complaining that those who don't share his world view do the exact same thing he does.
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Old 8th August 2009, 02:40 PM   #133
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military service = patriotism?

To those of you who equate military service with patriotism,

* Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage.
* Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
* Tom Delay: did not serve.
* Roy Blunt: did not serve.
* Bill Frist: did not serve.
* Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
* Rick Santorum: did not serve.
* Trent Lott: did not serve.
* John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.
* Jeb Bush: did not serve.
* Karl Rove: did not serve.
* Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. “Bad knee.” The man who attacked Max Cleland’s patriotism.
* Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
* Vin Weber: did not serve.
* Richard Perle: did not serve.
* Douglas Feith: did not serve.
* Eliot Abrams: did not serve.
* Richard Shelby: did not serve.
* Jon Kyl: did not serve.
* Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
* Christopher Cox: did not serve.
* Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
* George W. Bush: dodged active duty by using family connections to land a safe assignment in the National Guard; failed to complete six-year National Guard assignment; re-assigned from Texas to Alabama National Guard so he could campaign for family friend running for U.S. Senate; failing to show up for required medical exam and duties, was stripped of pilot status.
* Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting was over in Korea.
* Phil Gramm: did not serve.
* Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.
* John M. McHugh: did not serve.
* JC Watts: did not serve.
* Jack Kemp: did not serve. “Knee problem,” although continued in NFL for 8 years.
* Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
* George Pataki: did not serve.
* Spencer Abraham: did not serve.
* John Engler: did not serve.
* Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base.

Pundits & Preachers
* Sean Hannity: did not serve.
* Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a ‘pilonidal cyst.’)
* Bill O’Reilly: did not serve.
* Michael Savage: did not serve.
* George Will: did not serve.
* Chris Matthews: did not serve.
* Paul Gigot: did not serve.
* Bill Bennett: did not serve.
* Pat Buchanan: did not serve.
* Bill Kristol: did not serve.
* Kenneth Starr: did not serve.
* Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
* Clarence Thomas: did not serve.
* Ralph Reed: did not serve.
* Michael Medved: did not serve.
* Charlie Daniels: did not serve.
* Ted Nugent: did not serve. (He only shoots at things that don’t shoot back.)
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Old 8th August 2009, 02:47 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by americanpatriot View Post
To those of you who equate military service with patriotism,
<snip>
So you will be posting your service records for us to see "americanpatriot"?? I bet you are not even American.
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Old 8th August 2009, 02:50 PM   #135
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*americanpatriot: Anonymous conspiracy theorist, no evidence of ever having served his country, yet attacks people like Lt. Colonel Hal Bidlack USAF claiming they are part of the cover-up.

Originally Posted by Hutch View Post
Killtown:

I was asked to post this here by the person whose signature appears on the bottom of the message. If anyone has doubts on that score, I will post the salutation from the message in this thread.

I open a new thread because the topic addressed (Pentagon) is not really part of the other threads and I do not wish to cause a derail to those discussions, so I determined to open a new one.

More of my comments to follow, but here is the message:

Quote:
Killtown,
I am certainly aware of people like yourself who believe that those of us who suffered on 9/11 must be part of some giant plot, either as dupes or plotters. I was in the Pentagon when the plane hit, I held parts of that aircraft in my hands, covered with fuel and oil, and I helped with the triage area. I helped a guy with a headwound, aided ambulances coming in, and suffer to this day with ongoing nightmares on a very regular basis. When one has seen what I saw, and had to do what I had to do, the images, the smells, the sounds, resonate in your mind forever.

I do not object to your desire to dispute the facts of that day. While I feel you are hopelessly naive and silly, that is your right. But please know that your page on the Pentagon crash is deeply offensive to the survivors such as myself. Again, it's not that you argue. But your tone is one of mocking, of making light of the greatest suffering I ever saw in my 25 years of military service. Your fake "quotes," your quips, all mock the pain of those of us that were there, and served that day. I am very likely one of the people in some of your photographs, and I assure you our thoughts were not about the grass (a silly claim you make, by the way), but were deeply, intensely worried about the people hurt, the people left inside. I will never forget that day, and while I can forgive your foolishness in not understanding the facts, the science, the reality of that day, I find it much harder to forgive your willingness to laugh at those who were so terribly hurt that day. Such an attitude shows you to be a cruel and heartless person, in addition to silly one.

LT Col Hal Bidlack
USAF Retired



Hutch again. For the many new people who have joined the JREF Forums, Hal Bidlack is a good and great friend of Mr. Randi and a staunch supporter of both the United States and skeptical thought. He has, for reasons in the past, decided not to post directly on the JREF Forums, a decision I respect but wish he would change, as you can see he has both intelligence, style, and something worth saying.

I will say this: I have learned three things in my years posting around the web:

1. If you are arguing against Jay Utah in regards to the Moon Hoax, save yourself energy and surrender immediately.

2. Never try to match Limericks with Mercutio.

3. If Hal Bidlack is on your side, don't worry about your 180...you're covered.

Killtown, I doubt you will respect this post or this poster anymore than others here; but I would suggest that you read it very, very carefully. and maybe, just maybe, learn.

Press on.
Bidlacks message was addressed to Killtown, but it applies equally to all the casual traitors of the twoof movement.

Last edited by Sword_Of_Truth; 8th August 2009 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 8th August 2009, 03:06 PM   #136
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JoeyDonuts already pointed out that even if you can demonstrate that the principal figures of the Bush administration were people of extremely dubious character it has no bearing whatsoever on whether they are guilty of what you accuse them of.

Your list of belligerent chickenhawk wingers has the same flaw- it is 110% irrelevant to the question of responsibility for the 9/11 attacks.
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Old 8th August 2009, 03:08 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by ktesibios View Post
JoeyDonuts already pointed out that even if you can demonstrate that the principal figures of the Bush administration were people of extremely dubious character it has no bearing whatsoever on whether they are guilty of what you accuse them of.

Your list of belligerent chickenhawk wingers has the same flaw- it is 110% irrelevant to the question of responsibility for the 9/11 attacks.
Not only that. It exonerates them.
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Old 8th August 2009, 04:32 PM   #138
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As usual, the frustration in being accused of being closed minded by an irrational ideologue is soon replaced by absent bemusement.
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Old 8th August 2009, 04:34 PM   #139
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These 9-11 Truthers got some *********** nerve calling those who disagree with them, unpatriotic. Especially cause they whine and moan all day about personal attacks against them.

What's next.....calling anyone who disagrees with 9-11 Truth a traitor and deserving of jail time????

Hypocrisy anyone? 9-11 Truthers got gallons of it.

Last edited by Thunder; 8th August 2009 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 8th August 2009, 05:12 PM   #140
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Thank you Sword of Truth for reminding us that behind the stupid arguments, insane declarations and insults that there are real people and real lives. I think it was on another thread where someone is trying to argue what the sound of bodies hitting the ground and explosions are supposed to sound like that I saw a Utube clip of the towers being attacked and was reminded of the horror of the day and the deaths. I won't respond in kind to the pointless and nasty ad-hominems that are leveled at anyone who doesn't agree with them (truthers), they have the right to question, but sometimes it feels like that their attitude and tactics add a level of....slime....to the whole debate.
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Old 8th August 2009, 05:28 PM   #141
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Americanpatriot, are you scared of debate or something? Dissenting views and arguments make you cry?
Edited by Locknar:  Breach of Rule 12 removed.



Mod WarningAttack the argument, not the arguer.
Posted By:Locknar

Last edited by Locknar; 11th August 2009 at 05:09 AM.
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Old 8th August 2009, 08:49 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by americanpatriot View Post
a. To accept without question the word of an administration with a demonstrated propensity for prevarication is to practice self deception.

b. Osama bin Laden is the "prime suspect" in last Tuesday's terrorist attacks in New York and Washington and the United States wants to capture him, President Bush said Monday... "I want justice," Bush said... At the Pentagon, Bush and military officials discussed details for the call-up of 35,000 military reservists, which the president authorized last week. (CNN 9/17/01)

c. There is voluminous evidence that Bin Laden, on 9/11 and afterwards, remained a protected CIA asset. Here's a brief sampling (there is much more):

- The Taliban agreed to give up bin Laden to the U.S. only to be rebuffed by the State Department. (Village Voice 1/2/02)

- A plan to use a Hellfire missile from a Predator drone against bin Laden was repeatedly foiled. By September 4, 2001 in a Bush cabinet meeting to discuss terrorism, the Predator assassination plan was completely vetoed by CIA Director George Tenet. (Washington Post 10/2/02)

- FBI agent John O'Neill complained bitterly that the U.S. State Department blocked attempts to prove bin Laden's guilt. ... O'Neill said there was clear evidence in Yemen of bin Laden's guilt in the bombing of the USS Cole... but that the State Department prevented him from getting it. (Irish Times 11/19/01)

- The agencies were told to back off investigating the bin Ladens and Saudi royals and that angered agents... FBI Headquarters told us they could not comment on our findings. (BBC11/6/01)

- The US combat commander in Afghanistan [Gen. Tommy Franks] said Thursday that apprehending Osama bin Laden isn't one of the missions of Operation Enduring Storm. "We have not said that Osama bin Laden is a target of this effort." (USA Today 11/23/01)

- Former FBI translator Sibel Edmonds dropped a bombshell on the Mike Malloy radio show ... In the interview, Sibel says that the US maintained 'intimate relations' with Bin Laden, and the Taliban, "all the way until that day of September 11." (Daily Kos 7/31/09) [The Department of Justice's Inspector General and several senators have called FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds extremely credible. (NY Times 1/14/05)]

- Two months before September 11 Osama bin Laden flew to Dubai for 10 days for treatment at the American hospital, where he was visited by the local CIA agent, according to the French newspaper Le Figaro [which is owned by the Carlyle Group]. (Guardian 11/1/01)

- On September 10, 2001, bin Laden received kidney dialysis at a Pakistani military hospital in Rawalpindi [Pakistan is a US military ally].(CBS News, 1/28/02)

- CIA Commander: U.S. Let bin Laden Slip Away (Newsweek 8/15/05)

- America Could Have Killed Usama bin Laden — But Didn't (Fox News 10/23/07)

- An FBI informant had hosted and rented a room to two hijackers in 2000 and that, when the Inquiry sought to interview the informant, the FBI refused outright, and then hid him in an unknown location, and that a high-level FBI official stated these blocking maneuvers were undertaken under orders from the White House. (Newsweek 9/16/02)

Therefore, evidence demonstrates that Osama bin Laden was a protected asset who played the official role of a convenient patsy for 9/11.

d. Therefore, the Bush Administration demonstrated a propensity for prevarication at the expense of the lives of our troops.

e. Therefore, to accept without question the Bush Administration's 9/11 story is to practice self-deception - at the expense of our soldiers' lives.

You've been caught lying. The Taliban did not offer to surrender bin Laden (you think, maybe, such an offer might have made news?) and bin Laden did not seek treatment in a Dubai hospital. There is no evidence that he suffers from kidney disease. Sibel Edmonds is dealt with in another thread.
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Old 8th August 2009, 09:07 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by americanpatriot View Post
To those of you who equate military service with patriotism, ,snip.
I do not equate it with patriotism. There are actually a few white nationalists who have infiltrated the ranks (and I wish them all to be between a good soldier and the next IED that goes off. It would be the only time they ever did anything for the world or the species.)

I do link military service and the ability to understand terrorist operations. Twoofers are heavily out-gunned there.

Who the hell do the Republicans have who could have planned and executed an operation of that size without someone freaking out and busting the whole scam?

Name one of them. All they have is the wussie boys you listed and a few military officers. But even those officers who are Republican tend to put country before party and would not fall on their swords for a wussie boy like the shrub.

You just wasted a bunch of bandwidth, dude.

Quote:
* JC Watts: did not serve.
Probably would not have passed his physical anyway. He was a football player or some such, wasn't he?

Quote:
* Jack Kemp: did not serve. “Knee problem,” although continued in NFL for 8 years.
I dislike the fool strongly, but I have to give him a pass on this one. Most football players have crappy kness coming out of high school. A friend of mine was a recruiter in Yakima. He got just about all the seniors on the football team to sign up one year. One of them passed the physical. Knee problems stopped the rest.

That Pat Tillman passed was a fluke.
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Old 8th August 2009, 09:24 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by americanpatriot View Post
To those of you who equate military service with patriotism,

* Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage.
* Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
* Tom Delay: did not serve.
* Roy Blunt: did not serve.
* Bill Frist: did not serve.
* Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
* Rick Santorum: did not serve.
* Trent Lott: did not serve.
* John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.
* Jeb Bush: did not serve.
* Karl Rove: did not serve.
* Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. “Bad knee.” The man who attacked Max Cleland’s patriotism.
* Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
* Vin Weber: did not serve.
* Richard Perle: did not serve.
* Douglas Feith: did not serve.
* Eliot Abrams: did not serve.
* Richard Shelby: did not serve.
* Jon Kyl: did not serve.
* Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
* Christopher Cox: did not serve.
* Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
* George W. Bush: dodged active duty by using family connections to land a safe assignment in the National Guard; failed to complete six-year National Guard assignment; re-assigned from Texas to Alabama National Guard so he could campaign for family friend running for U.S. Senate; failing to show up for required medical exam and duties, was stripped of pilot status.
* Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting was over in Korea.
* Phil Gramm: did not serve.
* Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.
* John M. McHugh: did not serve.
* JC Watts: did not serve.
* Jack Kemp: did not serve. “Knee problem,” although continued in NFL for 8 years.
* Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
* George Pataki: did not serve.
* Spencer Abraham: did not serve.
* John Engler: did not serve.
* Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base.

Pundits & Preachers
* Sean Hannity: did not serve.
* Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a ‘pilonidal cyst.’)
* Bill O’Reilly: did not serve.
* Michael Savage: did not serve.
* George Will: did not serve.
* Chris Matthews: did not serve.
* Paul Gigot: did not serve.
* Bill Bennett: did not serve.
* Pat Buchanan: did not serve.
* Bill Kristol: did not serve.
* Kenneth Starr: did not serve.
* Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
* Clarence Thomas: did not serve.
* Ralph Reed: did not serve.
* Michael Medved: did not serve.
* Charlie Daniels: did not serve.
* Ted Nugent: did not serve. (He only shoots at things that don’t shoot back.)
You equate serving your country equals a true patriot. Wonderful. You wouldn't mind showing us your service records in that case.
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Old 8th August 2009, 09:46 PM   #145
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Heh, I like how he uses the fake GB national guard documents.
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Old 8th August 2009, 10:40 PM   #146
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I suppose there is no manly way to describe how I did accept Uncle Sam's gentle invitation (not a mandatory one: I was #273) when i graduated high school. No, but the truth is that he had a shooting war going on and I'd rather not get involved.

OTOH, I've made no effort to get my children, brothers, cousins, and nephews involved since then. Mine wife, sure, but she swore I'd knock her up before she shipped out. An optimistic statement, but she'd make it work and I'd go along with her.

Last edited by dropzone; 8th August 2009 at 10:44 PM.
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Old 9th August 2009, 01:02 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by americanpatriot View Post
a. To accept ... blah blah blah
Look kids. A drive by twoofing.

Now twoof. If you actually went and did ANY research you would see almost EVERYTHING you have just posted is a distortion, lie or misinformation.

try again, this time with 5 minutes of REAL research.
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Old 9th August 2009, 10:03 AM   #148
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OK, guys... seriously... Everything about americanpatriot screams "troll". From the chosen username to his frequency of posting.

For every post he's made, we've given him 20. And after 147 posts, a pattern should have emerged.

Ignore him, please.
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Old 9th August 2009, 11:05 AM   #149
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People like americanpatriot believe what they believe what they believe not because of any real evidence, investigation, or critical thinking, but because they are mindless irrational ideologues.

Hell, this one isn't even entertaining. I normally don't put people on ignore, but if there ever were a candidate it is he.
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Old 9th August 2009, 12:45 PM   #150
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These cult minions and traitors that are running around calling themselves patriots and pretend they are all about liberty, are so transparent and full of it.
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Old 9th August 2009, 02:41 PM   #151
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I'm still waiting to see americanpatriot's extensive service records.
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Old 9th August 2009, 02:47 PM   #152
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I'm still waiting to see his psychiatric records.

Oh, I'm sorry. Did I say that out loud?
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Old 9th August 2009, 04:36 PM   #153
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A true American patriot is someone who loves their country enough to uphold and live out the values that America represents. These being:

freedom, democracy, pluralism, tolerance, justice, the concept of innocent until proven guilty, and various other rights.

anyone who fails to uphold and live out these values, is not a true patriot. IMHO.
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Old 9th August 2009, 05:00 PM   #154
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A true patriot doesn't need a handle like americanpatriot.
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Old 9th August 2009, 05:07 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by TexasJack View Post
A true patriot doesn't need a handle like americanpatriot.
In the long history of the United States, it has been very rare to find a TRUE patriot, who ran around shouting about how patriotic he was..and how UNpatriotic his enemies were.
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Old 9th August 2009, 05:19 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
In the long history of the United States, it has been very rare to find a TRUE patriot, who ran around shouting about how patriotic he was..and how UNpatriotic his enemies were.
a true patriot would defend AP's right to spew his lunacy to the death
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Old 10th August 2009, 12:31 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by americanpatriot View Post
To those of you who equate military service with patriotism <snip> <snip>
Since you appear to be drawing a conclusive link between military service and patriotism and trustworthiness, allow me to make a short statement.

*steps up to mic*

I served six years in the U.S. Navy. That's a drop in the bucket compared to some of the old hands around here, but nonetheless - part of my stock-in-trade as a collateral duty enlisted intel assistant was to stay abreast of terrorist groups, their methods, their operations. Raw data as it came in regarding their attacks and movements. Open source from all manner of media outlets across the globe. Conclusive, incontravertible proof that Osama Bin Laden's Al-Qaeda organization was responsible for 9-11, and continues to target Western values, people, and interests across the globe.

You, sir, are blowing smoke, uninformed, twisting in the wind, raising questions that have been answered time and time again, and worst of all your rhetoric is tantamount to spitting in the faces of the military and civilian personnel who responded to, investigated, and ultimately brought the fight to the Islamic Fundamentalists who were responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

The Membership Agreement of this site prevents me from fully expressing what you can do with your half-baked and inflammatory screeds, so I'll wrap it up with one last thing.

It doesn't take an armed services veteran to see through your rants. Any thinking and rational person would find it an effortless task to see your thinking for what it is.

Message Ends.
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Old 10th August 2009, 01:34 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
These 9-11 Truthers got some *********** nerve calling those who disagree with them, unpatriotic. Especially cause they whine and moan all day about personal attacks against them.

What's next.....calling anyone who disagrees with 9-11 Truth a traitor and deserving of jail time????

Hypocrisy anyone? 9-11 Truthers got gallons of it.
Isn't that what they suggest will happen when The Twoofer Revolution™ happens? I've been told more than once that I can either switch sides or flee to Paraguay to escape the 9/11 truth kangaroo court. The traitor bit gets thrown around a lot by twoofers that have no idea what it means and apply it to anyone that doesn't immediately fall to their knees in praise of them once handed a copy of the "peer-reviewed" WTC explosive dust study.

You are right, 9/11 truthers are well-stocked in hypocrisy... well-evidenced when they rail against the Bush administration, but find it okay to use their tactics, like branding their opponents "unpatriotic".
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Old 18th August 2009, 03:47 PM   #159
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fooled you twice

1. To accept without question the Bush Administration's 9/11 story is to benefit the political and military ambitions of that administration.

2.* To accept without question the word of an administration with a demonstrated propensity for prevarication is to practice self deception.

3.* The EPA announced Ground Zero was safe after 9/11:

EPA Administrator Christie Whitman announced today that results from the Agency's air and drinking water monitoring near the World Trade Center and Pentagon disaster sites indicate that these vital resources are safe. (EPA, 9/18/01)

4. But, then two years later it was revealed:

Ground Zero tests by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency in the days immediately after the World Trade Center collapse did not support the agency's own statements the air around the site was safe to breathe, a newspaper reported. (CBS News, 3/17/03)

5.* Therefore, the Bush Administration* demonstrated a propensity for prevarication at the expense of our first responders' health and lives.

6.* The Bush Administration assured us that bringing to justice Osama bin Laden was our goal:

Osama bin Laden is the "prime suspect" in last Tuesday's terrorist attacks in New York and Washington and the United States wants to capture him, President Bush said Monday... "I want justice," Bush said... At the Pentagon, Bush and military officials discussed details for the call-up of 35,000 military reservists, which the president authorized last week. (CNN 9/17/01)

7. But, then only seven months later, the Bush Administration reversed itself:

"The goal has never been to get bin Laden," said General Richard Myers, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff. (CNN 4/6/02)*

"I truly am not that concerned about him [bin Laden]." (George W. Bush, White House Prese Conference, 3/13/02)

"The US combat commander in Afghanistan [Gen. Tommy Franks] said Thursday that apprehending Osama bin Laden isn't one of the missions of Operation Enduring Storm. 'We have not said that Osama bin Laden is a target of this effort.' (USA Today 11/23/01)

8.* Therefore, the Bush Administration demonstrated a propensity for prevarication about Osama bin Laden and our military objectives at the expense of our troops and our treasure.

9. The Bush Administration assured us that Iraq posed an immediate danger:

"Simply stated there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." (Dick Cheney, Speech to the VFW, Nashville, 8/26/02)

"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons." (George W. Bush, Speech to UN General Assembly, 9/12/02)

"We know for a fact that there are weapons there." (Ari Fleischer, Press Briefing, 1/9/03)

"Well, there is no question that we have evidence and information that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical particularly." (Ari Fleisher, Press Briefing, 3/21/03)

"We know where they [WMD] are. They are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad." (Donald Rumsfeld, ABC News This Week, 3/30/03)

10. But, then: "After nearly two years of looking, the White House is giving up its search for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq." (CBS News 1/12/05)

11. Furthermore, George W. Bush joked about it:

There was a slide of George W. Bush looking under furniture in the Oval Office. "Nope," he said. "No weapons over there." More laughter. Then another picture of Bush searching in his office: "Maybe under here." Laughter again. (Radio & TV Correspondents Dinner, 3/24/04)

12. Therefore, the Bush Administration demonstrated a propensity for prevarication about Iraqi WMD at the ultimate expense of our troops and our treasure; and George W. Bush demonstrated cavalier disregard for the lives our troops by cracking jokes about the non-existent WMD for whose confiscation he sent soldiers to fight and die in Iraq.

13.* The Bush Administration suppressed science for political purposes:

The Administration’s political interference with science has led to misleading statements by the President, inaccurate responses to Congress, altered web sites, suppressed agency reports, erroneous international communications, and the gagging of scientists. The subjects involved span a broad range, but they share a common attribute: the beneficiaries of the scientific distortions are important supporters of the President, including social conservatives and powerful industry groups. (Committee on Government Oversight and Reform, US House of Representatives, August 2003)

More than 4,000 scientists, including 48 Nobel Prize winners and 127 members of the National Academy of Sciences, accused the Bush administration Thursday of distorting and suppressing science to suit its political goals. (LA Times 7/9/04)

One particularly dramatic and well-documented case involves Dr. James Zahn, a research microbiologist at the USDA who asserts that he was prohibited on no fewer than 11 occasions from publicizing his research on the potential hazards to human health posed by airborne bacteria resulting from farm wastes. (Des Moines Register 12/1/02)

14.* Therefore, it is self-evident that over and over again, the Bush Administration demonstrated a proclivity for dissimulation for political purposes at the expense of the health and safety of the American people, our troops and our first responders.

15.* Therefore, to accept without question the Bush Administration's 9/11 story is to practice astonishing tunnel vision and strenuous, willful self-deception whose beneficiaries are the Bush Administration whose toxin-exposing, war-mongering political actions proved themselves indifferent to the health and safety of the American people and the lives of our troops and first responders.

Fooled you twice, yet fooled you again and again and again!
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Old 18th August 2009, 03:55 PM   #160
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oh good. The irrational ideologue is back towing the truther party line--an unthinking, copy and paste automaton of "truth".

Welcome back.
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