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Old 8th February 2018, 12:14 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Perhaps better known to most as "The Promised Land".
Only after Moses and company got there and slaughtered many of the existing inhabitants...with God's blessing of course. There's been trouble in the "Promised Land" ever since.

But I think the "special place" being referred to is the Garden of Eden supposedly located in the Tigris-Euphrates River Valley. One can only wonder what happened during the millions of years between the descent of Man from the common ancestor in Africa and the dispensing of souls to Adam and Eve in Eden. Was Stone-Age Man soul-less?
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:19 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
We may assume from this that this god was not interested in humanoid beings in other parts of the World. The faithful may argue it was in this location that man was first fitted out with souls. Given the huge difference in the Biblical account of the history of soul equiped, (God's image type), people and the scientific account of the history of man in the area, we must conclude that the god in question was not all that interested for a long time.
This is what was missing from the OP. Thank you, I now understand what argument you have been attempting to make, although, of course, there are many Biblical accounts of God interacting directly with people in Israel.
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Old 8th February 2018, 03:26 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
But it does mention Israel, and you apparently missed that.
And Israel is not purported to be the birthplace of humanity, or where God first started (or stopped) paying attention to humans in Christianity, so it was difficult to see how it was supposed to be relevant.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:13 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
And Israel is not purported to be the birthplace of humanity, or where God first started (or stopped) paying attention to humans in Christianity, so it was difficult to see how it was supposed to be relevant.
It shows that that part of the world was occupied by humans a lot earlier than we previously thought it was.

I'm failing to see what is so difficult to grasp here.

ETA: I'm also kind of failing to see why this is somehow an argument against theism, just for the record.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:16 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Perhaps better known to most as "The Promised Land".

Well I would suggest the "special place" was bigger than that. For example God first started talking to man in the Garden of Eden, and according to those scholars who put "Answers in Geneses" together:

Quote:
Most Bible commentaries state that the site of the Garden of Eden was in the Middle East, situated somewhere near where the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers are today. This is based on the description given in Genesis 2:8–14:
This puts it some 900 km to the North East of "The Promised Land", and also God had lots to say and do some distance to the South West in Egypt.

This makes it only a relatively small area non the less, and one could present a fairly strong case that God was exclusively only concerned with what went on there, to the exclusion of the rest of the globe.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:31 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It shows that that part of the world was occupied by humans a lot earlier than we previously thought it was.

I'm failing to see what is so difficult to grasp here.

ETA: I'm also kind of failing to see why this is somehow an argument against theism, just for the record.

Not so difficult for most of us to grasp it seems.

It is not an argument against theism in general but an argument against the existence of the Abrahamic God - or to be more specific - the assumption that the Abrahamic God was caring about his special creation .... us.

As I mentioned in the OP Christopher Hitchens (Peace be with him), made this point in a couple of his presentations also.
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Old 9th February 2018, 03:18 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It shows that that part of the world was occupied by humans a lot earlier than we previously thought it was.

I'm failing to see what is so difficult to grasp here.
No, I think you understand what is so difficult to grasp, as you're failing to grasp it yourself:

Quote:
ETA: I'm also kind of failing to see why this is somehow an argument against theism, just for the record.
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Old 9th February 2018, 03:20 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
As I mentioned in the OP Christopher Hitchens (Peace be with him), made this point in a couple of his presentations also.
Perhaps it'd help if you posted a relevant quote or two, rather than relying on us to be intimately familiar with all of Hitchens' speeches?
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Old 10th February 2018, 06:14 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
It is not an argument against theism in general but an argument against the existence of the Abrahamic God - or to be more specific - the assumption that the Abrahamic God was caring about his special creation .... us.
Would you consider assisting my understanding by outlining the chain of reasoning that leads from humans being in Israel earlier than previously thought to the Abrahamic god not caring about humans?
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Old 10th February 2018, 09:53 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Would you consider assisting my understanding by outlining the chain of reasoning that leads from humans being in Israel earlier than previously thought to the Abrahamic god not caring about humans?

Without getting too serious about this and bearing in mind that I don't (as I am sure you know), believe in the existence of the Abrahamic God or any other type. My argument is not really about how uncaring said god is, but how absurd the notion of such a god is. That is the thrust of Christopher Hitchens argument also from my understanding.

This argument is about time scale but the same argument can be made (and is made by other atheists as well as Hitch - although it seems Squeegee is unaware), about physical scale as well. The absurdity of man being the central focus of gods creation, when he occupies such a tiny part of that creation in time and space, is so blatantly obvious it requires no embellishment.

The article I referred to in the OP just emphasised this point because modern man, apparently, had been in gods special place for a lot longer and therefore, apparently, been ignored by said god for even longer.

That man had been in other places before this is of no consequence because the Abrahamic God is only, apparently, interested in what goes on in his special place. That is where he does all his talking to men (women seldom), and does all his tricks.
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Old 10th February 2018, 11:48 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
one could present a fairly strong case that God was exclusively only concerned with what went on there, to the exclusion of the rest of the globe.
Are we talking about the same God who gave a 7 year famine WORLDWIDE -- that meaning, including such places completely unrelated to the event, and unable to contribute in any way to the outcome, as China, America, Australia, or even isolated islands in the Pacific -- for no obvious reason than to make Joseph stinking rich? (See, Genesis 47.) I fail to see how giving the Aztecs or Okinawan a crop failure would even contribute to making Joseph rich, since there was no way for those to buy his hoarded grain or anything.

I'd say it's very much a given that God didn't give a flip about over 99% of all humans who ever lived.

Hell, that's scraping the bottom of the barrel and starting digging down, as far as giving a damn goes. Not only God doesn't give a damn to help them in that event, but he doesn't even care enough to do a more localized effect and avoid 100% pointless collateral damage there. He doesn't care enough that a few million Chinese will starve in that event, to, you know, not do it to them in the first place.
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Old 11th February 2018, 12:08 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Would you consider assisting my understanding by outlining the chain of reasoning that leads from humans being in Israel earlier than previously thought to the Abrahamic god not caring about humans?
You don't even have to go that far back, actually, to see a God who's worse than not giving a flip. It's mainstream theology for most denominations -- and most definitely for the Catholics, who are the biggest denomination -- that since you can't be saved except by Jesus, and only after Jesus did his schtick, everyone before Jesus went to hell. To the *ahem* least bad part of hell, but that's saying you're getting the nicest burning at the stake you'll ever see. Even the likes of Moses, or the two million who left everything behind and followed God through the desert, even Joshua who brought them into Israel, even the guys who got stabbed in the gut waging God's wars, etc, yep, they're down there now.

Let that go through your head again. It's not even just that they're born too early. But all the while God assures them that they're his BFF and all, He knows he's gonna fry them anyway, because some arbitrary milestone hasn't happened yet.

...

But ok, let's get back to the argument about the scope in time and space of God's giving a rodent's rear.

Well, primitive humans had been engaging in some vicious endemic warfare all over the globe for at least as long as the bow and arrow existed. I dunno why the two are connected, but as soon as that appears, we get mass graves with stone arrow tips embedded in the bones, and cave drawings of groups of archers shooting at each other. Maybe mass ballistic fire was easier to get the people into than stabbing each other up close. Maybe it's coincidence.

Even when it doesn't outright escalate in groups shooting at each other, it involves, well, basically punitive murder of some random guy from the neighbouring tribe.

And that tribal endemic warfare means that anywhere between 30% and 60% of all primitive humans die painful violent deaths.

Where was God at that point? Didn't he think to maybe give THOSE guys some New Rules? I keep saying it, but if Bill Maher can do it, God can do it too.

Or look at geography. In some places, human sacrifice was almost on a holocaust scale (compared to the sizes of the populations involved.) The Aztecs were more efficient than... well, let's say Pol Pot or Stalin, to not Godwin it, when it came to taking and sacrificing prisoners. They not just mass-sacrificed people to Huitzilopochtli by cutting their hearts out. They also skinned women alive, and had priests wear the flayed skin, to honour their warrior goddess. They also sacrificed children to Tlaloc, the water god, and pulled their nails out first, so they'd be sure they cry. (Rain god, tears, you get the connection.)

Did God think to maybe give THOSE some New Rules? Nope.

Hell, does he even reveal himself to anyone else in space or time, even just so they too have a chance to go to heaven?

God has such a ridiculously narrow view in time and geography. It's like he watches the world through a (4D) toilet paper roll. Everything outside the very narrow place in time and space he's inexplicably interested in -- and there's a LOT of it outside -- he just never cares about.
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Old 11th February 2018, 08:12 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The article I referred to in the OP just emphasised this point because modern man, apparently, had been in gods special place for a lot longer and therefore, apparently, been ignored by said god for even longer.

That man had been in other places before this is of no consequence because the Abrahamic God is only, apparently, interested in what goes on in his special place.
The second sentence appears to contradict the first. And, as said above, there's plenty of instances in the Bible of God interacting directly with people in Israel, so I still don't really get your argument.

Again, perhaps actually quoting what you're referring to Hitchens as saying would help?
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Old 11th February 2018, 01:47 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
The second sentence appears to contradict the first. And, as said above, there's plenty of instances in the Bible of God interacting directly with people in Israel, so I still don't really get your argument.

Again, perhaps actually quoting what you're referring to Hitchens as saying would help?

Yes well we do have a comprehension problem here it seems. I would be inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt, and examine the lucidity of what I have written, but others here do seem to be on the same page as I. Look at what Hans has written ^.

Now I have no trouble, gleaning from his text, that Hans is not really angry at the god he is berating. He doesn't believe in the god and is really amazed at the stupidity of people who do, and continue to call this god good and loving. Can you see that?

The reasoning behind the assertion the Abrahamic god is monstrous and uncaring (if he exists), is so clear if we look at the abundant evidence available, from the sacred texts about him. One doesn't need to refer to the writings or words of some eminent scholar, to give credibility to this argument as you seem to be suggesting - by your harping about wanting quotes from Hitchens.
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Old 11th February 2018, 08:43 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
The second sentence appears to contradict the first. And, as said above, there's plenty of instances in the Bible of God interacting directly with people in Israel, so I still don't really get your argument.
Actually, I'd say that your second sentence answers your question.

Yes, there are instances of God interacting with the people:

a) in and around Israel, which is really a tiny portion of the inhabited area of Earth, and even smaller percent of the population.

It's not clear when the interaction happens exactly, but by the time of Abraham or Joseph, clearly there's an organized Egypt and all, so let's say at the earliest it would be... dunno, let's say 2000 BCE or so? The total Earth population at the time is estimated at about 27 million people. Out of those, about 13.5 million lived in China, according to a supposed census taken by Yu the great. We know they had that many in 1000 BCE or so, so either they're limited by agricultural production (same as most of the world at the time) or maybe they had a couple million less in 2000 BCE, but still, it's the biggest chunk of the human population. Egypt proper was about 2 million all along. Etc.

The area that God interacts with is... well, it's not just that the geographical area is small, the estimated population density of Palestine in mid to late 3'rd millenium BCE is estimated anywhere between 3-7 people per square km in the hills, to 8-12 per square km in the plains. By way of comparison, even in its immediate vicinity, Lebanon could have had as high as 120 people per square km in its flood plains. (Source, John Bintliff, Kostas Sbonias.)

Can you see the problem there? The fact that it only mentions interacting with Israel is the PROBLEM, not the excuse.

God doesn't go to the Chinese to try to save most people. He doesn't even go a short walk away to Lebanon, to save THOSE. Nah, he concerns himself with only the tiniest zone possible, which in turn holds the tiniest population.

b) starting remarkably recently. Look at the TIME in the bible. Again, we're talking relatively evolved cities, a centralized Egypt, etc

So when does God start interacting with them, according to the Bible? 2000 BCE? 3000 BCE? Hell, let's say 8000 BCE just so we have a round 10k years ago figure. It's overestimating massively, but let's be generous.

Well, the problem is that the human species existed for about 200,000 years. So for 95% of the existence of the species, God couldn't give less of a crap about humans if he was the god of constipation.


Neanderthals came into existence some 800,000 years ago, and went extinct about 40,000 years ago. We're talking a sentient and sapient species, who had arts, crafts, ceremonial burial, cared for their wounded, etc. The first evidence of bringing flowers to a grave is actually from Neanderthal times, as is the first possible use of coal as fuel. And as religious folk try to tell me, consciousness is some kind of indication of a soul.

But at any rate, look at that point again: ceremonial burial. That's folks who at least hoped for an afterlife. Where's God for those? For the whole three quarters of a million years, that they existed, God couldn't give less of a screw than the god of impotence.

Homo Heidelbergensis lived 600,000 years ago, and may be an offshoot of the Neanderthals or a parallel evolution from H Erectuis. Again we're talking a sentient species which used tools, fire, etc. It definitely had a large enough brain, and was capable of articulated speech. Where was God for THOSE?

Both descend from Homo Ergaster, which is really the first for which evidence strongly suggests articulated speech and advanced thinking and planning. E.g., they built rafts to cross rivers, and used more advanced tools than ever before, such as bifacial axes. Did God interact with THOSE? In the whole million years between Ergaster and Neanderthals, did God ever go have a chat with any of THOSE? I mean, come on, he must have had a slow weekend when he wanted to boss someone around. But nope.

That's almost 2 million years worth of sentient humanoids, you know? And out of that, God couldn't give a rodent's rear for 99.5% of their existence.
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Old 11th February 2018, 09:30 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
The second sentence appears to contradict the first. And, as said above, there's plenty of instances in the Bible of God interacting directly with people in Israel, so I still don't really get your argument.

Again, perhaps actually quoting what you're referring to Hitchens as saying would help?
Nope. People were bumming around the levant for millennia. "god" cared not a whit for them and was a total no show. Strangely, when"god" chose to make himself known, he entirely ignored pretty much everywhere except for a tiny spck of land. Europeans, chinese, ozzies, etc, they can all go to hell and as for the "blicks", well, it doesn't much help that jebus was a swarthy immigrant, does it?
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Old 12th February 2018, 12:05 AM   #97
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As so clearly laid out by Hans and abaddon this uncaring/indifferent god ball is one the theists have a lot of trouble fielding. I think I can recall Dr Lane Craig (don't ask me for a precise quote Squeegee), being backed against the wall with it and the final parry was the "We can't know the ways of God" one. That line always frustrates the bejesus out of me, and you often here it from those that claim some in-depth understanding of the mind of god in other areas, they beat us around the head with.
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Old 12th February 2018, 01:56 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
God has such a ridiculously narrow view in time and geography. It's like he watches the world through a (4D) toilet paper roll. Everything outside the very narrow place in time and space he's inexplicably interested in -- and there's a LOT of it outside -- he just never cares about.
You'd almost think that he's just some mythological figure invented by the people of that region, rather than a universal creator deity...
Almost of course, because that would be heresy
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Old 12th February 2018, 02:18 AM   #99
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Now I'm confused again - if the argument being made, as Hans and abaddon are saying - is that God ignored people outside of Israel, then we're back to people being in Israel earlier than previously thought not extending the length of time during which people were being ignored by God. In fact, it's the opposite.

And "monstrous and uncaring" is a different argument to "ignoring" or "did nothing" - the latter two of which is what the OP claims, and the former of which is Thor has said his argument is "not really about".

As far as I can make it seem remotely coherent, the best I can come up with is that the God of the Bible acts monstrously towards humanity, some religious people might claim that humanity was first given souls in Israel, and therefore the length of time for which the God of the Bible has acted monstrously towards mankind is longer than previously thought. To make this the argument, though, you have to disregard the argument about people being ignored by God everywhere and every time other than in Israel, which is one that Thor is now saying is correct when Hans and abaddon made it, but earlier accused me of reading comprehension failure for suggesting.

So, yes, I'm back to not really understanding.

Thor could you please explain your hypothesis to me, as if to a child who has no knowledge of arguments put forth by others? Explain everything you've said about ignoring or acting monstrously, about souls being granted, about how God treats people outside of Israel, and what, exactly, the article in the OP has to do with God?
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Old 12th February 2018, 06:25 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Now I'm confused again - if the argument being made, as Hans and abaddon are saying - is that God ignored people outside of Israel, then we're back to people being in Israel earlier than previously thought not extending the length of time during which people were being ignored by God. In fact, it's the opposite.
Really? God ignoring the people of the levant for 160,000 years is somehow shorter than god ignoring the people of the levant for 100,000 years. This is what you pretend not to understand.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
And "monstrous and uncaring" is a different argument to "ignoring" or "did nothing" - the latter two of which is what the OP claims, and the former of which is Thor has said his argument is "not really about".
No it isn't. What is monstrous is that the claimed god could have intervened but intentionally did not for thousands of years and thousands of generations of humans. What kind of utter bastage does that?

Furthermore, that same deity apparently only briefly intervened in what may best be described in a local political spat, and cared not a whit for the entire rest of humanity across the globe.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
As far as I can make it seem remotely coherent, the best I can come up with is that the God of the Bible acts monstrously towards humanity, some religious people might claim that humanity was first given souls in Israel, and therefore the length of time for which the God of the Bible has acted monstrously towards mankind is longer than previously thought. To make this the argument, though, you have to disregard the argument about people being ignored by God everywhere and every time other than in Israel, which is one that Thor is now saying is correct when Hans and abaddon made it, but earlier accused me of reading comprehension failure for suggesting.
And like the religious, you attempt to rationalise the obviously uncaring god. It matters not whether you realise it, but you are leaping through the same bonkers hoops as a fundy.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
So, yes, I'm back to not really understanding.
Can you add? 160,000 > 100,000.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Thor could you please explain your hypothesis to me, as if to a child who has no knowledge of arguments put forth by others? Explain everything you've said about ignoring or acting monstrously, about souls being granted, about how God treats people outside of Israel, and what, exactly, the article in the OP has to do with God?
Simple. God ignores everyone for thousands of years, shows up briefly in a single location, commits random acts of petty vandalism and vanishes without trace. No souls were granted since there is no such thing. God never has any dealings with anyone outside of Israel.

How difficult is that?

All that has changed is that we have learned that god's **** you attitude has gone on for even longer than we thought.
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Old 12th February 2018, 09:40 AM   #101
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The problem with non-intervention and why it makes it "monstrous and uncaring" is that it's not really just ignoring. If I'm to believe what most Christians tell me, without God/Jesus you're going straight to Hell. Do not pass "GO", do not collect $200.

So for 99% of the time humans existed (Jesus only was available for the last 2000 years of the 200,000 years humans existed) God didn't just ignore everyone. God sent everyone off to eternal torture for not even knowing which deity to brown nose. And doesn't even bother telling them. Generation after generation after generation go straight to Hell for not matching an arbitrary rule -- one that doesn't even depend on them, since they can't MAKE Jesus come already even if they knew about him -- but God can't be bothered to even tell them the rule.

And when he does finally show up, who does he give his message to? He doesn't try to save the half of the total human population of the globe, which is what kind of population lived in Chine. He doesn't try to save the about 10% of the total population, which is what Egypt had. Nah, he only concerns himself with a couple hundred thousand people tops, living in a tiny under-developed area. The rest, he's still gonna roast anyway.

Oh wait... wait... he doesn't even try to save those. Nah, Jesus hasn't come yet. What God actually does is tell them they're his BFF, but it's actually just a carrier for hidden messages about Jesus. He's still gonna fry them all.

TL;DR version: there's a difference between ignoring everyone, and actually sending everyone to burn in hell, without even being bothered to tell them why.
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Old 12th February 2018, 10:13 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
This notion, popular in Hinduism, that reincarnation somehow addresses inequities, leads to some really horrible situations.
Like the rigidly divided caste system and the fact that the poor may be ignored. Indeed (and I’ve heard this expressed by western folks as well...) that trying to help the poor, sick, and downtrodden is not only futile, it’s actually wrong.
The wretches are paying for their past misdeeds, you see...
Let ‘em suffer, they brought it on themselves. Since MY butt is in the butter, I must have been good in a previous life.
Not unlike the Prosperity Gospel people or even Mother Teresa and her insistence that suffering was a blessing.
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Old 12th February 2018, 01:19 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Now I'm confused again - if the argument being made, as Hans and abaddon are saying - is that God ignored people outside of Israel, then we're back to people being in Israel earlier than previously thought not extending the length of time during which people were being ignored by God. In fact, it's the opposite.

And "monstrous and uncaring" is a different argument to "ignoring" or "did nothing" - the latter two of which is what the OP claims, and the former of which is Thor has said his argument is "not really about".

...........

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph Squeegee!!!

Can't you see that the argument is just about the absurdity of believing in this god! That's it ..... period.
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Old 13th February 2018, 01:36 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Really? God ignoring the people of the levant for 160,000 years is somehow shorter than god ignoring the people of the levant for 100,000 years. This is what you pretend not to understand.
I'm not pretending not to understand anything. It's being claimed that God first started interacting with people in Israel, that that's where they were given souls. Which means that the argument isn't about ignoring people outside of Israel. Or, if it is, then people being inside Israel is irrelevant to ignoring people outside of Israel.

So what is the argument being put forth - that God ignored people inside Israel, or that God ignored the people outside of Israel?

Quote:
Simple. God ignores everyone for thousands of years, shows up briefly in a single location, commits random acts of petty vandalism and vanishes without trace. No souls were granted since there is no such thing. God never has any dealings with anyone outside of Israel.

How difficult is that?
If God is ignoring people outside of Israel, then why is that not as monstrous as ignoring the people inside Israel? And if it is, then what has the length of time people have been in Israel got to do with the price of fish in China?
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Old 13th February 2018, 01:37 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
The problem with non-intervention and why it makes it "monstrous and uncaring" is that it's not really just ignoring. If I'm to believe what most Christians tell me, without God/Jesus you're going straight to Hell. Do not pass "GO", do not collect $200.

So for 99% of the time humans existed (Jesus only was available for the last 2000 years of the 200,000 years humans existed) God didn't just ignore everyone. God sent everyone off to eternal torture for not even knowing which deity to brown nose. And doesn't even bother telling them. Generation after generation after generation go straight to Hell for not matching an arbitrary rule -- one that doesn't even depend on them, since they can't MAKE Jesus come already even if they knew about him -- but God can't be bothered to even tell them the rule.

And when he does finally show up, who does he give his message to? He doesn't try to save the half of the total human population of the globe, which is what kind of population lived in Chine. He doesn't try to save the about 10% of the total population, which is what Egypt had. Nah, he only concerns himself with a couple hundred thousand people tops, living in a tiny under-developed area. The rest, he's still gonna roast anyway.

Oh wait... wait... he doesn't even try to save those. Nah, Jesus hasn't come yet. What God actually does is tell them they're his BFF, but it's actually just a carrier for hidden messages about Jesus. He's still gonna fry them all.

TL;DR version: there's a difference between ignoring everyone, and actually sending everyone to burn in hell, without even being bothered to tell them why.
Then isn't it more monstrous for him to ignore the people outside of Israel than it is for him to ignore the people inside Israel, since at least they know why they're going to "fry"? Doesn't this line of reasoning, at best, make the length of time people have lived in Israel irrelevant?
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Old 13th February 2018, 01:38 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph Squeegee!!!

Can't you see that the argument is just about the absurdity of believing in this god! That's it ..... period.
And the relevance of a scientific discovery is what? Please explain, as if to a child, citing the things you're relying on to make your argument.
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Old 13th February 2018, 05:22 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I'm not pretending not to understand anything. It's being claimed that God first started interacting with people in Israel, that that's where they were given souls. Which means that the argument isn't about ignoring people outside of Israel. Or, if it is, then people being inside Israel is irrelevant to ignoring people outside of Israel.

So what is the argument being put forth - that God ignored people inside Israel, or that God ignored the people outside of Israel?
God ignored everyone for hundreds of thousands of years, messed with some goatherders heads briefly and then vanished without trace.



Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
If God is ignoring people outside of Israel, then why is that not as monstrous as ignoring the people inside Israel? And if it is, then what has the length of time people have been in Israel got to do with the price of fish in China?
Your god is ignoring everyone in Israel and everyone else across the globe.
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Old 13th February 2018, 05:08 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
God ignored everyone for hundreds of thousands of years, messed with some goatherders heads briefly and then vanished without trace.



Your god is ignoring everyone in Israel and everyone else across the globe.

I think you may be right about the "Pretending to not understand" idea.
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove rule breach
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Old 13th February 2018, 09:07 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Then isn't it more monstrous for him to ignore the people outside of Israel than it is for him to ignore the people inside Israel, since at least they know why they're going to "fry"? Doesn't this line of reasoning, at best, make the length of time people have lived in Israel irrelevant?
I'm not sure how adding another chunk of atrocity is an excuse. I mean it's kinda like saying that Stalin may have murdered millions outside Ukraine, but he also starved to death and executed a few millions IN Ukraine. Or he may have arrested and killed a lot of his own officers, but hey, he also arrested and executed a lot of his aircraft and rocketry scientists. And it was at different times too. Uh, so? Does it make him less of a monster, or what is the point?

The point about time and space, though, is that a supposedly loving father figure, who created ALL humans:

A) at least he does give a tiny number of people in a tiny space-time blip SOME rules, but he doesn't give a crap about tens of thousands of years of endemic tribal warfare (both IN and OUT of Israel) where anywhere between 30 and 60% of all males will die early and violent deaths. He doesn't give a crap about the Aztecs' enacting a holocaust-scale (compared to the population in the area) assembly-line operation of cutting hearts out for Huitzilopochtli, killing children for Tlaloc, and skinning women alive. He doesn't give a crap about Assyrians impaling whole villages, and proudly commemorating their deed in bas-reliefs, or being buried with their servants who are sacrificed by hammering a spike into their head. (Well, he does send ONE guy to Niniveh at one point, but he's back to not giving a crap even by the time that guy gets there.) Etc.

You'd think at least some of those could, you know, benefit from some New Rules.

Doesn't that make it a bit, you know, uncaring?

Extending the time frame in which he's utterly uncaring even in his chosen zone, well, at the very least doesn't maker him any less uncaring. Is all I'm saying.

B) while at least the excuse for mass suffering exists for the Jews and Xians that "God is testing their faith", for >95% of the existence of the human species, and outside a tiny area, that excuse doesn't exist. He never gave those guys a faith to test in the first place. WHAT faith is he testing for those tribesmen who see their friends and family murdered all year round in endemic warfare, their women kidnapped and raped, etc, before being themselves horribly murdered? God never told them they should believe in anything else than their animal spirits in the first place.

Again, extending the human population in time and space just makes that more stupid.

C) at the very least it makes it an even more implausible proposition. A God who created all humans, loves his children, has infinite power and knowledge to actually do something about their problems or education, etc... actually doesn't show any interest in any of them outside a tiny blip in space-time. Out of a time-space of human existence that now we know is larger than we thought before, making that blip an even tinier percentage.

It's like saying I love my children and other relatives, and will gladly teach them and help them... except it only applies to whoever was in the garden shed, and only yesterday between 9 and 9:15 AM. The rest of the time and space, they can eat crap and die, for all I care.

It doesn't actually sound very caring, nor very plausible, outside maybe severe schizophrenia.
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Old 13th February 2018, 11:17 PM   #110
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The point being made so clearly here by Hans, abaddon, and myself (although seemingly not comprehended by Squeegee), is the absurdity of the notion of a "Caring God" presiding over all creation.

I wonder about the experience of others who may have confronted theists with this crushing argument. Has your experience been similar to mine? A sort of shrugging off the incontestable proof of the indifference of their god, whilst hiding behind the "Don't know the ways ......." crap.
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Old 14th February 2018, 03:46 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
God ignored everyone for hundreds of thousands of years, messed with some goatherders heads briefly and then vanished without trace.
Are you saying that he didn't ignore the people in Israel, at least briefly, and that he did ignore people before they were in Israel?

Quote:
Your god is ignoring everyone in Israel and everyone else across the globe.
Assuming that anybody who questions any anti-religion argument is themselves religious doesn't exactly speak to an intellectually honest approach to discourse.
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Old 14th February 2018, 03:54 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I'm not sure how adding another chunk of atrocity is an excuse.
I'm not attempting to excuse anything. I'm attempting to understand what the relevance of the article linked in the OP is to the confused and contradictory argument it's being offered up as evidence for.

Quote:
Extending the time frame in which he's utterly uncaring even in his chosen zone, well, at the very least doesn't maker him any less uncaring. Is all I'm saying.
"Even in his chosen zone" seems to me to be the same as saying "his chosen zone is irrelevant to this argument".

Quote:
Again, extending the human population in time and space just makes that more stupid.
This thread is specifically about the length of time people have been in Israel, not the length of time people have been "outside a tiny area".

Quote:
It doesn't actually sound very caring, nor very plausible, outside maybe severe schizophrenia.
But, again, doesn't seem to have anything to do with the length of time people have lived in Israel.
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Old 14th February 2018, 04:00 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The point being made so clearly here by Hans, abaddon, and myself (although seemingly not comprehended by Squeegee), is the absurdity of the notion of a "Caring God" presiding over all creation.
I get that. But can you make a cogent argument as to what connection the article you linked to in the OP has with that point? Perhaps it'd help if you were to quote the Hitchens arguments that you are relying on? Even where I've disagreed with him, I've always found him to make clear and cogent arguments.
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Old 14th February 2018, 10:44 PM   #114
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Well, I suppose the argument can be made that a God who didn't care about his children killing each other and suffering is just as much an uncaring monster, and just as implausible a proposition, regardless of whether it's for 50,000 years or 100,000 years or 200,000 years. So, yeah, extending the interval wouldn't make a difference in that case.

Is that your position? I don't really have a problem with that.
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Old 14th February 2018, 11:48 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I get that. But can you make a cogent argument as to what connection the article you linked to in the OP has with that point? Perhaps it'd help if you were to quote the Hitchens arguments that you are relying on? Even where I've disagreed with him, I've always found him to make clear and cogent arguments.

And so it goes on and on. It would help if you would read the posts made by others, and tried really really hard, to understand what was being said. I know you have trouble with comprehension (alternatively pretending to be thus afflicted), but if you do manage it you will see that I am not relying on "Hitchens arguments" to add weight to my arguments, but just commenting that Hitchens was of a similar mindset on this issue.

The argument stands on it's own merits is my argument, clearly seen by abaddon and Hans, if you pay attention. Why is it beyond you're comprehension?
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Old 14th February 2018, 11:52 PM   #116
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To answer the question of a caring God is possible, the first thing relevant is if that God has to be logically for all cases of reality or only logically for caring about humans?

So Thor 2, do you ask if there is a God at all or if there is a caring God? Relevant to this is the degree of reason and logic that you will accept? Does the notion of reality/God have to be absolutely logical for all aspects of reality/God? Do you accept that an explanation for a naturalistic and non-supernatural reality is not logically, but do you demand that a belief in God for all of reality must absolutely logical?

The last question is important because it points to a possible double standard. I.e. that the demand for evidence for God is not of the same standard as the demand for evidence of a naturalistic and non-supernatural reality.
So before I answer I have to know your general standard of all claims of evidence for what reality is and if only versions of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition is allowed, when it comes to God?
If the latter then no, based on the Holy Books of this tradition God is not logically.

In other words, that one or more versions of God are not logically, does not rule out a logical God as such.

Further rather for all versions of claims about what reality is, the general question is if it is possible with evidence, reason and logic to give a coherent answer to what reality is. Note that I use evidence in the form of methodological naturalism, reason as without bias and logic as that the claims of reality must add up logical for all aspects of logic.

So if your claim or standard is that it is possible with evidence, reason and logic to give an answer to what reality is, it may be that it is a double standard in so far as that this is not possible at all.
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Old 15th February 2018, 12:53 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
In other words, that one or more versions of God are not logically, does not rule out a logical God as such.
First of all, we need clarify the concept of God.

The god of the Christianity and other derivatives is logically impossible. Omnipotence, omniscience and absolute goodness are inconsistent with the obvious and widespread existence of evil on earth.

A god without one of these features becomes logically possible but losts his theological advantatges. He becomes contingent and, therefore, suspicious and subjected to evidence and refutation.

An absent/uncaring god —common to many religions— is not logically impossible but factually unnecessary.

They are different problems with different gods.
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Old 15th February 2018, 01:02 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
First of all, we need clarify the concept of God.

The god of the Christianity and other derivatives is logically impossible. Omnipotence, omniscience and absolute goodness are inconsistent with the obvious and widespread existence of evil on earth.

A god without one of these features becomes logically possible but losts his theological advantatges. He becomes contingent and, therefore, suspicious and subjected to evidence and refutation.

An absent/uncaring god —common to many religions— is not logically impossible but factually unnecessary.

They are different problems with different gods.
Yes, God doesn't add up in totality. But that is also a problem of cognition, because all version of what reality is, is subject to cognition. As a minimum in regards to evil, that would be moral relativism and as a maximum cognitive relativism. But then we are down the rabbit hole, right?
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Old 15th February 2018, 02:01 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
To answer the question of a caring God is possible, the first thing relevant is if that God has to be logically for all cases of reality or only logically for caring about humans?

So Thor 2, do you ask if there is a God at all or if there is a caring God? Relevant to this is the degree of reason and logic that you will accept? Does the notion of reality/God have to be absolutely logical for all aspects of reality/God? Do you accept that an explanation for a naturalistic and non-supernatural reality is not logically, but do you demand that a belief in God for all of reality must absolutely logical?

The last question is important because it points to a possible double standard. I.e. that the demand for evidence for God is not of the same standard as the demand for evidence of a naturalistic and non-supernatural reality.
So before I answer I have to know your general standard of all claims of evidence for what reality is and if only versions of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition is allowed, when it comes to God?
If the latter then no, based on the Holy Books of this tradition God is not logically.

In other words, that one or more versions of God are not logically, does not rule out a logical God as such.

Further rather for all versions of claims about what reality is, the general question is if it is possible with evidence, reason and logic to give a coherent answer to what reality is. Note that I use evidence in the form of methodological naturalism, reason as without bias and logic as that the claims of reality must add up logical for all aspects of logic.

So if your claim or standard is that it is possible with evidence, reason and logic to give an answer to what reality is, it may be that it is a double standard in so far as that this is not possible at all.
That's nice. Good for you. But it isn't the topic at hand.
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Old 15th February 2018, 02:05 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
That's nice. Good for you. But it isn't the topic at hand.
No, the God of the Torah/Bible/Quran doesn't add up. That is old news. Good for you.
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