ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 22nd January 2018, 02:34 PM   #1561
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,117
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Your claim was that the regulations had "been weakened". Whilst the articles are interesting, they don't support your claim. They actually speak about understanding and enforcement, and not watering down of the regulations themselves, which was your claim.
Great. So regulations have always been too lax to prevent catastrophic tower fires? I stand corrected.

ETA: According to this, there was a major overhaul of the UK fire codes in 2005.
Quote:
The major change in the legislation was that it brought in the concept of risk assessment rather than prescriptive codes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ty)_Order_2005

So instead of "You can't do this" or "You must do this," it became "Try not to create a hazard." Yeah, I know that's a simplificaton, but it sure sounds like a lot of room for bad judgment.

Last edited by Bob001; 22nd January 2018 at 02:43 PM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 02:37 PM   #1562
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 23,481
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Great. So regulations have always been too lax to prevent catastrophic tower fires? I stand corrected.
Correct......assuming the regulations played any part in this. They haven't been weakened. You'll note the lack of catastrophic tower fires in the UK, though, before you get too hyperbolic.
__________________
"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 02:53 PM   #1563
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,117
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
....
As an aside, I'd bet the farm that this cladding wasn't what was specified by the architect in the first place, because that's really not how the world works. The main contractor's QS may well be sitting somewhat nervously through proceedings if the usual processes applied in this instance.
....
Okay, I'll bite. What would be "how the world works" and "the usual processes" here? Can the architect specify fire-resistant cladding, and the contractor substitute what he wants to save a few bucks? Can the architect tell the owner or management "This is what you need here," and somebody else says "Ah, let's go cheaper?" Does the architect or an inspector review the actual construction against the architect's plans? If this resulted from "the usual processes," surely the usual processes are terribly deficient.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2018, 02:55 PM   #1564
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,117
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Correct......assuming the regulations played any part in this. They haven't been weakened. You'll note the lack of catastrophic tower fires in the UK, though, before you get too hyperbolic.
I note that the installation of cladding like this is a relatively new development. There were concrete towers long before there was plastic siding on them.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2018, 09:48 AM   #1565
Henri McPhee
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,758
Sky News had that fire expert Stephen Mackenzie on for quite a long interview a few days ago. There seems to be confusion about the safety of replacement cladding for both the public and the private sector:

https://news.sky.com/story/safety-re...rrors-11232492
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th February 2018, 06:28 AM   #1566
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 16,897
Alok Sharma the Housing Minister admitted the govt hasn't funded any repairs or re-cladding despite being asked for the promised help by 36 local authorities.

Funny they had enough to spend on their own tower refurbishing Queen Elizabeth Tower that holds Big Ben. It's cost jumped from 28 million to over 60 million. They had to get it somewhere and, after all it is a tower.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 12th February 2018 at 06:30 AM.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th February 2018, 10:26 AM   #1567
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,154
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Alok Sharma the Housing Minister admitted the govt hasn't funded any repairs or re-cladding despite being asked for the promised help by 36 local authorities.

Funny they had enough to spend on their own tower refurbishing Queen Elizabeth Tower that holds Big Ben. It's cost jumped from 28 million to over 60 million. They had to get it somewhere and, after all it is a tower.
There's no magic money tree except when they want there to be one...
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th February 2018, 10:28 AM   #1568
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 21,769
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Alok Sharma the Housing Minister admitted the govt hasn't funded any repairs or re-cladding despite being asked for the promised help by 36 local authorities.

Funny they had enough to spend on their own tower refurbishing Queen Elizabeth Tower that holds Big Ben. It's cost jumped from 28 million to over 60 million. They had to get it somewhere and, after all it is a tower.

And in other news ... I saw this on one of my news feeds this morning;
Quote:
Taxpayers will foot the 6m bill for replacing cladding panels on two new Glasgow hospitals.

Cladding similar to that used on the Grenfell Tower is to be removed from the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital and the Royal Hospital for Children.

NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde said the Scottish government would fund the works, which are expected to be completed over the next 12 months.
Apparently they are only doing it to make people feel better.
Quote:
The spokeswoman added: "The board has been given assurances from the National Fire Officer that the hospitals are amongst the safest buildings in the UK in terms of fire engineering, however the decision was taken replace panels to give extra reassurance to the public, our patients and our staff
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th February 2018, 02:27 PM   #1569
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 23,786
Hospitals are so safe they are the only buildings they do not evacuate in a fire. Fare safety standards have to be very high for that reason.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th February 2018, 02:51 PM   #1570
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,117
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Hospitals are so safe they are the only buildings they do not evacuate in a fire. Fare safety standards have to be very high for that reason.
What is the cladding on the hospital actually made from? Is it the fireproof version, or is it the same explosive stuff as on Grenfell? Grenfell was a giant block of concrete; nobody expected it to burn either.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 05:58 AM   #1571
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,767
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What is the cladding on the hospital actually made from? Is it the fireproof version, or is it the same explosive stuff as on Grenfell? Grenfell was a giant block of concrete; nobody expected it to burn either.
It doesn't matter. All cladding is bad, m'kay?
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th February 2018, 06:12 AM   #1572
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 21,769
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It doesn't matter. All cladding is bad, m'kay?

Why would you say that?
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2018, 05:49 AM   #1573
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,767
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Why would you say that?
Cynicism. Cladding is being removed because people are afraid of cladding, not because teh cladding in particular has shown to be an issue.

Meanwhile, the latest development in allowing the investigation to carry on in a fair and balanced way...

BBC News: Grenfell Tower campaigners in 'Three Billboards' stunt

"Three large billboards demanding justice following the Grenfell Tower fire have been driven through London by campaigners.

Group Justice 4 Grenfell hired three vans with adverts which read: "71 dead. And still no arrests? How come?"

The banners were inspired by those featured in the film Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri.

The Metropolitan Police said its investigation into the fire was ongoing and no arrests had been made.

Yvette Williams, one of the organisers, said there were fears the tragedy was "ebbing out of public consciousness"."

As *********** if....

Last edited by Information Analyst; 16th February 2018 at 05:51 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2018, 08:15 AM   #1574
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 21,769
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Cynicism. Cladding is being removed because people are afraid of cladding, not because teh cladding in particular has shown to be an issue.

The article in question described the cladding as, "Cladding similar to that used on the Grenfell Tower".

Now, this may have been using the term "similar" in the trivially true but deceptive sense that all cladding, even the non-combustible kind, is "similar", and in truth the cladding on the hospitals is the utterly non-flammable and completely safe variety and they are only removing it to placate the illiterate masses.

Or they may have been saying that it will ignite easily and burn like molten plastic if ignited, just like the panels on Grenfell Tower.

Your opinion is that the former is the case?


Quote:

Meanwhile, the latest development in allowing the investigation to carry on in a fair and balanced way...

BBC News: Grenfell Tower campaigners in 'Three Billboards' stunt

"Three large billboards demanding justice following the Grenfell Tower fire have been driven through London by campaigners.

Group Justice 4 Grenfell hired three vans with adverts which read: "71 dead. And still no arrests? How come?"

<snip>

What is wrong with public advocacy groups expressing their opinions publicly?
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2018, 10:04 AM   #1575
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,767
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The article in question described the cladding as, "Cladding similar to that used on the Grenfell Tower".

Now, this may have been using the term "similar" in the trivially true but deceptive sense that all cladding, even the non-combustible kind, is "similar", and in truth the cladding on the hospitals is the utterly non-flammable and completely safe variety and they are only removing it to placate the illiterate masses.

Or they may have been saying that it will ignite easily and burn like molten plastic if ignited, just like the panels on Grenfell Tower.

Your opinion is that the former is the case?
Yes, given this quote:

Quote:
The spokeswoman added: "The board has been given assurances from the National Fire Officer that the hospitals are amongst the safest buildings in the UK in terms of fire engineering, however the decision was taken replace panels to give extra reassurance to the public, our patients and our staff"
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 06:30 AM   #1576
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 28,304
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
What is wrong with public advocacy groups expressing their opinions publicly?
It's possible he's critiquing the quality of the opinion, without calling into question them whole idea of free speech.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 02:42 PM   #1577
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 21,769
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's possible he's critiquing the quality of the opinion, without calling into question them whole idea of free speech.

It's possible, I suppose, but the sarcasm implicit in the comment "the latest development in allowing the investigation to carry on in a fair and balanced way..." suggests otherwise.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 02:46 PM   #1578
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 21,769
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yes, given this quote:

Don't you think that's the sort of thing they would have said regardless?

I'm sure the residents of Grenfell were given equally glowing assurances of its uncompromised safety ... right up until it became a column of flame and toxic fumes.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2018, 07:57 PM   #1579
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 28,304
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It's possible, I suppose, but the sarcasm implicit in the comment "the latest development in allowing the investigation to carry on in a fair and balanced way..." suggests otherwise.
Not to me.

There's nothing wrong with enganging in advocacy

And there's nothing wrong with disparaging advocacy that seems ineffective or counter productive.

But sarcasm is never a good look.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2018, 05:28 AM   #1580
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,767
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It's possible, I suppose, but the sarcasm implicit in the comment "the latest development in allowing the investigation to carry on in a fair and balanced way..." suggests otherwise.
There are investigations ongoing. Driving a load of advertising hoardings through central London demanding to know to know why they haven't been any arrests yet is a childish and counter-productive. Expressing faux fears that the event is "ebbing out of public consciousness" is bollocks considering there's a Grenfell-related story on the news at least every *********** week.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 18th February 2018 at 05:30 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2018, 05:31 AM   #1581
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,767
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
But sarcasm is never a good look.
On the contrary, old boy, sarcasm is our national sport.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 18th February 2018 at 05:37 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2018, 07:58 AM   #1582
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 21,769
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
There are investigations ongoing. Driving a load of advertising hoardings through central London demanding to know to know why they haven't been any arrests yet is a childish and counter-productive. Expressing faux fears that the event is "ebbing out of public consciousness" is bollocks considering there's a Grenfell-related story on the news at least every *********** week.

Did you offer the same sort of comments about big red buses proclaiming the amount of money Brexit would bring to health services?
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2018, 08:41 AM   #1583
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,767
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Did you offer the same sort of comments about big red buses proclaiming the amount of money Brexit would bring to health services?
Given my frequently expressed anti-Brexit views, what do you think?
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2018, 12:58 PM   #1584
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 21,769
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Given my frequently expressed anti-Brexit views, what do you think?

Are we discussing the merit of the content or the means of distributing the message?
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2018, 03:59 AM   #1585
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,269
I had a very "interesting" conversation about Grenfell Tower on Saturday night over dinner with friends and neighbours. One, who is the only local person I know who is happy to state that they voted Brexit, said that she had been told by a local senior fireman that the death toll was much higher than the official death toll.

The fireman was giving a fire prevention lecture to the local WI and said that well over 500 bodies were found in Grenfell Tower including 47 in one flat alone. Apparently these numbers are being suppressed by TPTB because "they" don't want the true extent of illegals to be made public.

This news aligned exactly to our Brexiteer's beliefs and she was shocked at how the real news was suppressed.

It seems to be in part a rehashing of these reports where a friend "who is is a fireman"......

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/81...th-toll-bodies

Sorry about the source

PressTV are a source for the 500 claim
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2018, 04:10 AM   #1586
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,154
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I had a very "interesting" conversation about Grenfell Tower on Saturday night over dinner with friends and neighbours. One, who is the only local person I know who is happy to state that they voted Brexit, said that she had been told by a local senior fireman that the death toll was much higher than the official death toll.

The fireman was giving a fire prevention lecture to the local WI and said that well over 500 bodies were found in Grenfell Tower including 47 in one flat alone. Apparently these numbers are being suppressed by TPTB because "they" don't want the true extent of illegals to be made public.

This news aligned exactly to our Brexiteer's beliefs and she was shocked at how the real news was suppressed.

It seems to be in part a rehashing of these reports where a friend "who is is a fireman"......

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/81...th-toll-bodies

Sorry about the source

PressTV are a source for the 500 claim

"It's a secret, don't tell anyone!" He told the audience of strangers...
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th February 2018, 07:17 AM   #1587
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 18,173
From Badscience

Originally Posted by discovolante
Uh well:

https://twitter.com/PeteApps/status/967025076456579072

Quote:
The government is planning to quietly weaken the restrictions on putting combustible materials on high rises following lobbying from the insulation industry.
This is the start of a long thread about the fire regulations
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 24th February 2018 at 07:20 AM.
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th February 2018, 07:55 AM   #1588
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 16,897
Well, there is that big strategic reserve of firelighter blocks they want to get rid of.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th February 2018, 10:51 AM   #1589
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 21,769
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
From Badscience



This is the start of a long thread about the fire regulations
Seems like a perfect response to a regulatory system which has proven to be insufficiently rigorous in the pursuit of protecting the public.

Make it less rigorous.

What are a few lives when money can be made for developers?

Looks like a little bit of early Brexit. Get rid of all those pesky consumer protections.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2018, 11:48 AM   #1590
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 68,587
'3 BILLBOARDS' PROTEST IN LONDON FOR HIGH-RISE FIRE VICTIMS
Quote:
"71 dead. And still no arrests? How Come?"
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2018, 02:14 PM   #1591
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,767
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Post#1573
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th March 2018, 03:42 PM   #1592
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 68,587
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yes, given this quote:
Quote:
The spokeswoman added: "The board has been given assurances from the National Fire Officer that the hospitals are amongst the safest buildings in the UK in terms of fire engineering, however the decision was taken replace panels to give extra reassurance to the public, our patients and our staff"
You expect them to say otherwise?
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th March 2018, 02:30 AM   #1593
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,767
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You expect them to say otherwise?
Well, obviously a hospital is a different proposition to an office or even residential block, given the higher proportion of people with low mobility likely to be in it at any one time, as you would know.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th March 2018, 02:53 AM   #1594
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 21,769
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Well, obviously a hospital is a different proposition to an office or even residential block, given the higher proportion of people with low mobility likely to be in it at any one time, as you would know.

Which would make it even more likely that a bureaucracy tasked with the safety of those people would give assurances that everything was hunky-dory.

Whether it was or not.
"Oh, there's no problem here. We're just going to spend a few million on needless cosmetic repairs for no good reason other than to make people feel better.

We've got plenty of extra funds to toss around on feel-good projects."
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th March 2018, 05:07 AM   #1595
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,767
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Which would make it even more likely that a bureaucracy tasked with the safety of those people would give assurances that everything was hunky-dory.

Whether it was or not.
"Oh, there's no problem here. We're just going to spend a few million on needless cosmetic repairs for no good reason other than to make people feel better.

We've got plenty of extra funds to toss around on feel-good projects."
Which are those?
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th March 2018, 07:37 AM   #1596
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 28,304
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You expect them to say otherwise?
Yes, if otherwise is the case.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th March 2018, 02:09 PM   #1597
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 21,769
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Which are those?

The ones you quoted;

Quote:
The spokeswoman added: "The board has been given assurances from the National Fire Officer that the hospitals are amongst the safest buildings in the UK in terms of fire engineering, however the decision was taken replace panels to give extra reassurance to the public, our patients and our staff"
Unless the need was to give the extra reassurance. The claim being that there was nothing else wrong with the panels, and they were only being replaced to make some people feel better about them.

This would mean that the repairs were entirely cosmetic. Or perhaps not even that, since no one has suggested that they were ugly.

A rather odd commitment of millions from a health care system supposedly already struggling for funds.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."

Last edited by quadraginta; 6th March 2018 at 02:11 PM.
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th March 2018, 06:05 AM   #1598
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,767
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The ones you quoted;

Unless the need was to give the extra reassurance. The claim being that there was nothing else wrong with the panels, and they were only being replaced to make some people feel better about them.

This would mean that the repairs were entirely cosmetic. Or perhaps not even that, since no one has suggested that they were ugly.

A rather odd commitment of millions from a health care system supposedly already struggling for funds.
You seem to be misusing the term "cosmetic." The panel have functionality beyond what they look like. Replacing one type of functional panel for another with equal functionality but different fire-rating does not make them "cosmetic" in the normal sense of the word.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th March 2018, 07:14 AM   #1599
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 21,769
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You seem to be misusing the term "cosmetic." The panel have functionality beyond what they look like. Replacing one type of functional panel for another with equal functionality but different fire-rating does not make them "cosmetic" in the normal sense of the word.

And if there was no need to replace them because of any possible increased fire danger due to the composition of the original panels, as they seem to be claiming, then maybe "cosmetic" isn't the most perfectly chosen term, but it doesn't seem wildly inappropriate, either.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th March 2018, 07:34 AM   #1600
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 18,173
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
And if there was no need to replace them because of any possible increased fire danger due to the composition of the original panels, as they seem to be claiming, then maybe "cosmetic" isn't the most perfectly chosen term, but it doesn't seem wildly inappropriate, either.
Reassurance is important - one doesn't want people scared to go to hospital.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:37 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.