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Old 22nd January 2018, 02:34 PM   #1561
Bob001
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Your claim was that the regulations had "been weakened". Whilst the articles are interesting, they don't support your claim. They actually speak about understanding and enforcement, and not watering down of the regulations themselves, which was your claim.
Great. So regulations have always been too lax to prevent catastrophic tower fires? I stand corrected.

ETA: According to this, there was a major overhaul of the UK fire codes in 2005.
Quote:
The major change in the legislation was that it brought in the concept of risk assessment rather than prescriptive codes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ty)_Order_2005

So instead of "You can't do this" or "You must do this," it became "Try not to create a hazard." Yeah, I know that's a simplificaton, but it sure sounds like a lot of room for bad judgment.

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Old 22nd January 2018, 02:37 PM   #1562
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Great. So regulations have always been too lax to prevent catastrophic tower fires? I stand corrected.
Correct......assuming the regulations played any part in this. They haven't been weakened. You'll note the lack of catastrophic tower fires in the UK, though, before you get too hyperbolic.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 02:53 PM   #1563
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
....
As an aside, I'd bet the farm that this cladding wasn't what was specified by the architect in the first place, because that's really not how the world works. The main contractor's QS may well be sitting somewhat nervously through proceedings if the usual processes applied in this instance.
....
Okay, I'll bite. What would be "how the world works" and "the usual processes" here? Can the architect specify fire-resistant cladding, and the contractor substitute what he wants to save a few bucks? Can the architect tell the owner or management "This is what you need here," and somebody else says "Ah, let's go cheaper?" Does the architect or an inspector review the actual construction against the architect's plans? If this resulted from "the usual processes," surely the usual processes are terribly deficient.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 02:55 PM   #1564
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Correct......assuming the regulations played any part in this. They haven't been weakened. You'll note the lack of catastrophic tower fires in the UK, though, before you get too hyperbolic.
I note that the installation of cladding like this is a relatively new development. There were concrete towers long before there was plastic siding on them.
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Old 3rd February 2018, 09:48 AM   #1565
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Sky News had that fire expert Stephen Mackenzie on for quite a long interview a few days ago. There seems to be confusion about the safety of replacement cladding for both the public and the private sector:

https://news.sky.com/story/safety-re...rrors-11232492
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Old 12th February 2018, 06:28 AM   #1566
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Alok Sharma the Housing Minister admitted the govt hasn't funded any repairs or re-cladding despite being asked for the promised help by 36 local authorities.

Funny they had enough to spend on their own tower refurbishing Queen Elizabeth Tower that holds Big Ben. It's cost jumped from 28 million to over 60 million. They had to get it somewhere and, after all it is a tower.

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Old 12th February 2018, 10:26 AM   #1567
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Alok Sharma the Housing Minister admitted the govt hasn't funded any repairs or re-cladding despite being asked for the promised help by 36 local authorities.

Funny they had enough to spend on their own tower refurbishing Queen Elizabeth Tower that holds Big Ben. It's cost jumped from 28 million to over 60 million. They had to get it somewhere and, after all it is a tower.
There's no magic money tree except when they want there to be one...
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Old 12th February 2018, 10:28 AM   #1568
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Alok Sharma the Housing Minister admitted the govt hasn't funded any repairs or re-cladding despite being asked for the promised help by 36 local authorities.

Funny they had enough to spend on their own tower refurbishing Queen Elizabeth Tower that holds Big Ben. It's cost jumped from 28 million to over 60 million. They had to get it somewhere and, after all it is a tower.

And in other news ... I saw this on one of my news feeds this morning;
Quote:
Taxpayers will foot the 6m bill for replacing cladding panels on two new Glasgow hospitals.

Cladding similar to that used on the Grenfell Tower is to be removed from the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital and the Royal Hospital for Children.

NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde said the Scottish government would fund the works, which are expected to be completed over the next 12 months.
Apparently they are only doing it to make people feel better.
Quote:
The spokeswoman added: "The board has been given assurances from the National Fire Officer that the hospitals are amongst the safest buildings in the UK in terms of fire engineering, however the decision was taken replace panels to give extra reassurance to the public, our patients and our staff
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Old 12th February 2018, 02:27 PM   #1569
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Hospitals are so safe they are the only buildings they do not evacuate in a fire. Fare safety standards have to be very high for that reason.
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Old 12th February 2018, 02:51 PM   #1570
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Hospitals are so safe they are the only buildings they do not evacuate in a fire. Fare safety standards have to be very high for that reason.
What is the cladding on the hospital actually made from? Is it the fireproof version, or is it the same explosive stuff as on Grenfell? Grenfell was a giant block of concrete; nobody expected it to burn either.
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Old 13th February 2018, 05:58 AM   #1571
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What is the cladding on the hospital actually made from? Is it the fireproof version, or is it the same explosive stuff as on Grenfell? Grenfell was a giant block of concrete; nobody expected it to burn either.
It doesn't matter. All cladding is bad, m'kay?
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Old 13th February 2018, 06:12 AM   #1572
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It doesn't matter. All cladding is bad, m'kay?

Why would you say that?
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Old 16th February 2018, 05:49 AM   #1573
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Why would you say that?
Cynicism. Cladding is being removed because people are afraid of cladding, not because teh cladding in particular has shown to be an issue.

Meanwhile, the latest development in allowing the investigation to carry on in a fair and balanced way...

BBC News: Grenfell Tower campaigners in 'Three Billboards' stunt

"Three large billboards demanding justice following the Grenfell Tower fire have been driven through London by campaigners.

Group Justice 4 Grenfell hired three vans with adverts which read: "71 dead. And still no arrests? How come?"

The banners were inspired by those featured in the film Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri.

The Metropolitan Police said its investigation into the fire was ongoing and no arrests had been made.

Yvette Williams, one of the organisers, said there were fears the tragedy was "ebbing out of public consciousness"."

As *********** if....

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Old 16th February 2018, 08:15 AM   #1574
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Cynicism. Cladding is being removed because people are afraid of cladding, not because teh cladding in particular has shown to be an issue.

The article in question described the cladding as, "Cladding similar to that used on the Grenfell Tower".

Now, this may have been using the term "similar" in the trivially true but deceptive sense that all cladding, even the non-combustible kind, is "similar", and in truth the cladding on the hospitals is the utterly non-flammable and completely safe variety and they are only removing it to placate the illiterate masses.

Or they may have been saying that it will ignite easily and burn like molten plastic if ignited, just like the panels on Grenfell Tower.

Your opinion is that the former is the case?


Quote:

Meanwhile, the latest development in allowing the investigation to carry on in a fair and balanced way...

BBC News: Grenfell Tower campaigners in 'Three Billboards' stunt

"Three large billboards demanding justice following the Grenfell Tower fire have been driven through London by campaigners.

Group Justice 4 Grenfell hired three vans with adverts which read: "71 dead. And still no arrests? How come?"

<snip>

What is wrong with public advocacy groups expressing their opinions publicly?
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Old 16th February 2018, 10:04 AM   #1575
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The article in question described the cladding as, "Cladding similar to that used on the Grenfell Tower".

Now, this may have been using the term "similar" in the trivially true but deceptive sense that all cladding, even the non-combustible kind, is "similar", and in truth the cladding on the hospitals is the utterly non-flammable and completely safe variety and they are only removing it to placate the illiterate masses.

Or they may have been saying that it will ignite easily and burn like molten plastic if ignited, just like the panels on Grenfell Tower.

Your opinion is that the former is the case?
Yes, given this quote:

Quote:
The spokeswoman added: "The board has been given assurances from the National Fire Officer that the hospitals are amongst the safest buildings in the UK in terms of fire engineering, however the decision was taken replace panels to give extra reassurance to the public, our patients and our staff"
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Old 17th February 2018, 06:30 AM   #1576
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
What is wrong with public advocacy groups expressing their opinions publicly?
It's possible he's critiquing the quality of the opinion, without calling into question them whole idea of free speech.
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Old 17th February 2018, 02:42 PM   #1577
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's possible he's critiquing the quality of the opinion, without calling into question them whole idea of free speech.

It's possible, I suppose, but the sarcasm implicit in the comment "the latest development in allowing the investigation to carry on in a fair and balanced way..." suggests otherwise.
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Old 17th February 2018, 02:46 PM   #1578
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yes, given this quote:

Don't you think that's the sort of thing they would have said regardless?

I'm sure the residents of Grenfell were given equally glowing assurances of its uncompromised safety ... right up until it became a column of flame and toxic fumes.
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Old 17th February 2018, 07:57 PM   #1579
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It's possible, I suppose, but the sarcasm implicit in the comment "the latest development in allowing the investigation to carry on in a fair and balanced way..." suggests otherwise.
Not to me.

There's nothing wrong with enganging in advocacy

And there's nothing wrong with disparaging advocacy that seems ineffective or counter productive.

But sarcasm is never a good look.
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Old 18th February 2018, 05:28 AM   #1580
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It's possible, I suppose, but the sarcasm implicit in the comment "the latest development in allowing the investigation to carry on in a fair and balanced way..." suggests otherwise.
There are investigations ongoing. Driving a load of advertising hoardings through central London demanding to know to know why they haven't been any arrests yet is a childish and counter-productive. Expressing faux fears that the event is "ebbing out of public consciousness" is bollocks considering there's a Grenfell-related story on the news at least every *********** week.

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Old 18th February 2018, 05:31 AM   #1581
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
But sarcasm is never a good look.
On the contrary, old boy, sarcasm is our national sport.

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Old 18th February 2018, 07:58 AM   #1582
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
There are investigations ongoing. Driving a load of advertising hoardings through central London demanding to know to know why they haven't been any arrests yet is a childish and counter-productive. Expressing faux fears that the event is "ebbing out of public consciousness" is bollocks considering there's a Grenfell-related story on the news at least every *********** week.

Did you offer the same sort of comments about big red buses proclaiming the amount of money Brexit would bring to health services?
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Old 18th February 2018, 08:41 AM   #1583
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Did you offer the same sort of comments about big red buses proclaiming the amount of money Brexit would bring to health services?
Given my frequently expressed anti-Brexit views, what do you think?
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Old 18th February 2018, 12:58 PM   #1584
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Given my frequently expressed anti-Brexit views, what do you think?

Are we discussing the merit of the content or the means of distributing the message?
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Old 19th February 2018, 03:59 AM   #1585
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I had a very "interesting" conversation about Grenfell Tower on Saturday night over dinner with friends and neighbours. One, who is the only local person I know who is happy to state that they voted Brexit, said that she had been told by a local senior fireman that the death toll was much higher than the official death toll.

The fireman was giving a fire prevention lecture to the local WI and said that well over 500 bodies were found in Grenfell Tower including 47 in one flat alone. Apparently these numbers are being suppressed by TPTB because "they" don't want the true extent of illegals to be made public.

This news aligned exactly to our Brexiteer's beliefs and she was shocked at how the real news was suppressed.

It seems to be in part a rehashing of these reports where a friend "who is is a fireman"......

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/81...th-toll-bodies

Sorry about the source

PressTV are a source for the 500 claim
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Old 19th February 2018, 04:10 AM   #1586
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I had a very "interesting" conversation about Grenfell Tower on Saturday night over dinner with friends and neighbours. One, who is the only local person I know who is happy to state that they voted Brexit, said that she had been told by a local senior fireman that the death toll was much higher than the official death toll.

The fireman was giving a fire prevention lecture to the local WI and said that well over 500 bodies were found in Grenfell Tower including 47 in one flat alone. Apparently these numbers are being suppressed by TPTB because "they" don't want the true extent of illegals to be made public.

This news aligned exactly to our Brexiteer's beliefs and she was shocked at how the real news was suppressed.

It seems to be in part a rehashing of these reports where a friend "who is is a fireman"......

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/81...th-toll-bodies

Sorry about the source

PressTV are a source for the 500 claim

"It's a secret, don't tell anyone!" He told the audience of strangers...
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Old Yesterday, 07:17 AM   #1587
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From Badscience

Originally Posted by discovolante
Uh well:

https://twitter.com/PeteApps/status/967025076456579072

Quote:
The government is planning to quietly weaken the restrictions on putting combustible materials on high rises following lobbying from the insulation industry.
This is the start of a long thread about the fire regulations
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Old Yesterday, 07:55 AM   #1588
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Well, there is that big strategic reserve of firelighter blocks they want to get rid of.
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Old Yesterday, 10:51 AM   #1589
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
From Badscience



This is the start of a long thread about the fire regulations
Seems like a perfect response to a regulatory system which has proven to be insufficiently rigorous in the pursuit of protecting the public.

Make it less rigorous.

What are a few lives when money can be made for developers?

Looks like a little bit of early Brexit. Get rid of all those pesky consumer protections.
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