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Tags gun laws , Washington politics

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Old 7th February 2018, 08:45 PM   #81
PhantomWolf
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Because just one more law will turn the tide.

Just like how penalty enhancements for crack cocaine stopped the crack epidemic dead in it's tracks.
Actually one law likely would turn it, but it's never going to happen. Handguns are the tools of choice of at least 50% of murderers in the US. A similar percentage of people that commit Suicide likewise use a handgun.

Restricting Handguns would make a difference.

Now yes, a number of both groups would find another way to do the deed if they didn't have access to a handgun, but it would certainly reduce the number of crimes of passion or spur of the moment killings.

It would also mean that criminals had less opportunity to gain access to them. But the fact is that if you reduced the deaths by just 10% by restricting the use and ownership of handguns in the same way other 1st world countries have, that'd be 3,000 people a year saved!
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Old 7th February 2018, 08:54 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Actually one law likely would turn it, but it's never going to happen.
It would probably require more than one law.

It's illegal for you to possess a (hand)gun.
It's legal for us to search you and/or your environment (home, car, work, etc.) for guns at any time and this does not require a warrant.
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Old 7th February 2018, 08:55 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Because just one more law will turn the tide.

Just like how penalty enhancements for crack cocaine stopped the crack epidemic dead in it's tracks.
The penalty for use can't do what the reduction of availability will.

Of course, merely taking away what people want is not the solution; witness Prohibition. Rather, adopt a more progressive, sensible solution. For drugs, look to Portugal for an example. For guns, look to most any developed nation. When politicians *and* citizenry agree to work together, a good outcome can obtain.
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Old 7th February 2018, 09:21 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Actually one law likely would turn it, but it's never going to happen. Handguns are the tools of choice of at least 50% of murderers in the US. A similar percentage of people that commit Suicide likewise use a handgun.

Restricting Handguns would make a difference.

Now yes, a number of both groups would find another way to do the deed if they didn't have access to a handgun, but it would certainly reduce the number of crimes of passion or spur of the moment killings.

It would also mean that criminals had less opportunity to gain access to them. But the fact is that if you reduced the deaths by just 10% by restricting the use and ownership of handguns in the same way other 1st world countries have, that'd be 3,000 people a year saved!
And we also have another number to consider.

The Violence Policy cCenter has published a study on defensive gun uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) conducted by the Bureau of Justice Statistics. It is intended to debunk other surveys (Lott et al) stating that defensive gun uses may be as high as 2.5 million a year.

VPC published their study spinning the myth right up front that the only successful DGU results in the death of the criminal and a finding of justifiable homicide. I'll give VPC credit for at least addressing what is not something that exactly works in their favor. VPC includes the NCVS section classification titled"SELF-PROTECTIVE BEHAVIORS, BY TYPE OF CRIME"

In the three year study sample from the BJS numbers reported by the VPC, firearms were used as a defensive weapon in 175,700 violent crime incidents and 109,000 property crime incidents.

Over a period of three years, using the lowest numbers from the government themselves, from a study from the VPC (which for sure isn't a 2nd Amendment advocacy group) we get to 260 defensive gun uses per day. Below is a link to the VPC study

http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable17.pdf
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Last edited by BStrong; 7th February 2018 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 7th February 2018, 09:24 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It would probably require more than one law.

It's illegal for you to possess a (hand)gun.
It's legal for us to search you and/or your environment (home, car, work, etc.) for guns at any time and this does not require a warrant.
If you have nothing to hide why shouldn't that be the law across the board for any type of criminal statute?

Is there really any reason not to allow law enforcement officers to do anything they like at anytime to anyone?
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Old 7th February 2018, 09:27 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
we get to 260 defensive gun uses per day.
Because this country is chock full of insane criminals who cannot easily be stopped by innocent civilians unless a gun is pointed at them.
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Old 7th February 2018, 09:31 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
If you have nothing to hide why shouldn't that be the law across the board for any type of criminal statute?

Is there really any reason not to allow law enforcement officers to do anything they like at anytime to anyone?
I don't know. But I wouldn't really want cops coming into my house and tearing it apart looking for guns that aren't even there.
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Old 8th February 2018, 12:39 AM   #88
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Quote:
....looking for guns that aren't even there.
Says you.
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Old 8th February 2018, 12:55 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Because just one more law will turn the tide.

Just like how penalty enhancements for crack cocaine stopped the crack epidemic dead in it's tracks.
Dude, you live in a State where a Bump-fire stock is illegal. Any of the last terrorists/gunman in Cali use a Bump-stock?


QED
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:04 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Dude, you live in a State where a Bump-fire stock is illegal. Any of the last terrorists/gunman in Cali use a Bump-stock?

QED
It's worse than that.

In California machineguns can only be possessed under very strict regulation and outside of being a licensed manufacturer or dealer under both federal and state law it's wholly illegal and you can't possess "high-capacity" magazines. Video from Oakland over the weekend:

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Old 9th February 2018, 08:03 PM   #91
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How many people have lost their lives because they didn't have a bump-stock installed on their gun?
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Old 10th February 2018, 06:16 PM   #92
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I'm going to say none have died for lack of a bump stock. I can also say the same for the opposite. As far as I know, no one has died because a person owned a bump stock. In Paddock's case he could have probably bump fired without the slide fire stock and killed/wounded just as many in the eight acre field of targets he fired upon that night.
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Old 10th February 2018, 10:43 PM   #93
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Ok, great. No harm done by this ban.
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Old 10th February 2018, 11:15 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Ok, great. No harm done by this ban.
And no benefit for public safety.
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Old 11th February 2018, 08:30 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Ok, great. No harm done by this ban.
Unnecessary laws are harmful in and of themselves.
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Old 11th February 2018, 06:11 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
In Paddock's case he could have probably bump fired without the slide fire stock and killed/wounded just as many in the eight acre field of targets he fired upon that night.
Nice weasel word. In my understanding, Bump firing without a stock is a lot harder than with one. As such it's also very possible that he might not have been about to kill/wound just as many in the eight acre field of targets he fired upon that night had he had to rely on manually trying to bump the guns.
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Old 11th February 2018, 06:21 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Nice weasel word.
Not really. You want me to deal in absolutes?

Quote:
In my understanding, Bump firing without a stock is a lot harder than with one.
In my experience it is not a lot harder, probably be more accurate with a slide fire stock though.

Quote:
As such it's also very possible that he might not have been about to kill/wound just as many in the eight acre field of targets he fired upon that night had he had to rely on manually trying to bump the guns.
I suspect he could have killed/injured as many using aimed semi-auto fire at the rate of two rounds per second without bump firing. I've no idea why he only spent less than a minute with the trigger pulled that night.

Until we know more about why he spent so little of the time he had actually engaging the targets below and which rifles he used, speculating is of little use here.
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Old 11th February 2018, 06:48 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Nice weasel word. In my understanding, Bump firing without a stock is a lot harder than with one. As such it's also very possible that he might not have been about to kill/wound just as many in the eight acre field of targets he fired upon that night had he had to rely on manually trying to bump the guns.
It's very easy to bumpfire a rifle:

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Old 11th February 2018, 07:43 PM   #99
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Bump fire stock still seems easier.

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Old 11th February 2018, 08:47 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Unnecessary laws are harmful in and of themselves.
How so?
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Old 12th February 2018, 04:48 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
It's very easy to bumpfire a rifle:

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What I find interesting is that all the videos I can find of people bumpfiring are of people that are well practiced. There don't seem to be many is any "Bob's first time bumpfiring" videos, but there are a lot of "Jane's first time with a bumpfire stock" videos.

Maybe I am wrong, but that in itself suggests to me that it takes some practice to get the hang of bumpfiring naturally, whereas anyone can pick up a bumpfire stock and just use it straight out of the box.
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Old 12th February 2018, 04:53 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
How so?
They bog down society with needless bureaucracy. They waste police resources on needless enforcement. They threaten citizens with needless crimes.

Why on earth would you want a law you cannot justify? Why on earth should any other citizen tolerate such a shifting of your burden of proof, even for a second?
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Old 12th February 2018, 06:29 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
What I find interesting is that all the videos I can find of people bumpfiring are of people that are well practiced. There don't seem to be many is any "Bob's first time bumpfiring" videos, but there are a lot of "Jane's first time with a bumpfire stock" videos.
How do you tell the difference between well practiced shooters who bump fire and beginners? Surely you understand that some people tend to edit their videos to show them in the best light. I mean who wants to see a person showing off how terrible they are shooting a rifle?

Quote:
Maybe I am wrong, but that in itself suggests to me that it takes some practice to get the hang of bumpfiring naturally, whereas anyone can pick up a bumpfire stock and just use it straight out of the box.
I'm only speaking for myself, but it takes practice to bump fire with or without a slide fire stock; it is easier with the slide fire stock though.
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Old 12th February 2018, 08:03 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They bog down society with needless bureaucracy. They waste police resources on needless enforcement. They threaten citizens with needless crimes.

Why on earth would you want a law you cannot justify? Why on earth should any other citizen tolerate such a shifting of your burden of proof, even for a second?
So, you'd rather err on the side of mass murder than on safety. Not me. I'd rather keep weapons of mass murder out of most people's hands.
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Old 12th February 2018, 10:13 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why on earth would you want a law you cannot justify? Why on earth should any other citizen tolerate such a shifting of your burden of proof, even for a second?
Whether they can be 'justified' or not, no laws are necessary. And any attempted 'justification' can easily be refuted simply by refusing to accept it.

Quote:
They bog down society with needless bureaucracy. They waste police resources on needless enforcement. They threaten citizens with needless crimes.
All laws do that. And the most 'justified' laws are often the worst offenders.
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Old 13th February 2018, 04:58 AM   #106
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I've never bump fired anything so I'll admit my ignorance, but I've just looked at three youtube videos of bump firing without a bump stock and in all cases the shooter was holding the gun at hip level, this was also mentioned in a review I read so is it fair to say this is a common technique? The similarly small number of videos I've seen of bump stocks have all been held at the shoulder. The other difference that seemed obvious to me, again as casual observer, was that although both techniques obviously allow the gun to move back and forth the stock seems to offer significantly firmer grip at the trigger hand which reasonably would imply greater accuracy and control.

This review is particularly complimentary about accuracy-:

https://www.fourguysguns.com/article...-stock-review/

In the small sample of reviews I looked at it was often mentioned that these devices aren't a replacement for for fully automatic weapons, I can understand that, it would obviously be completely unsuitable under the circumstances where the military, for example, would use them, but in a situation like the Las Vegas shooting where target avaliability is high and there is little chance of return fire I think it was probably an effective addition to his armament.
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Old 13th February 2018, 05:24 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I've never bump fired anything so I'll admit my ignorance, but I've just looked at three youtube videos of bump firing without a bump stock and in all cases the shooter was holding the gun at hip level, this was also mentioned in a review I read so is it fair to say this is a common technique?
The only videos I've seen on bump fire had the stock to the shoulder; that's the only way I've done it. I've heard it can be done from the hip; never tried it though.

Quote:
The similarly small number of videos I've seen of bump stocks have all been held at the shoulder. The other difference that seemed obvious to me, again as casual observer, was that although both techniques obviously allow the gun to move back and forth the stock seems to offer significantly firmer grip at the trigger hand which reasonably would imply greater accuracy and control.
I would say that the slide fire stock allows for less inaccurate firing. No one is accurate with bump fire as far as I can tell.
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Old 13th February 2018, 05:26 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
So, you'd rather err on the side of mass murder than on safety. Not me. I'd rather keep weapons of mass murder out of most people's hands.
A slide fire stock was not required for any incident of mass murder.
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Old 13th February 2018, 06:00 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
A slide fire stock was not required for any incident of mass murder.
Not required, just preferred, used, and increased the casualties. You're trying to convince people that bump stocks do not increase firing rates, which is the purpose of the product and why the product sells.
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Old 13th February 2018, 06:21 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Not required, just preferred, used, and increased the casualties.
Bolding mine. Evidence for this claim?

Quote:
You're trying to convince people that bump stocks do not increase firing rates, which is the purpose of the product and why the product sells.
How about you quote the post where I said this? You can't because you simply made up the claim. I'm rather tired of the arguments you make up out of thin air. Can't you do this somewhere else?
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Old 13th February 2018, 06:40 AM   #111
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Increased firing rates do not equal increased casualties?
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Old 13th February 2018, 06:59 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
So, you'd rather err on the side of mass murder than on safety. Not me. I'd rather keep weapons of mass murder out of most people's hands.
I'm of the opposite position.
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Old 13th February 2018, 07:02 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Increased firing rates do not equal increased casualties?
They do only if the bullets hit someone. You're being evasive, again. How about you supply the post where I claimed bump firing doesn't increase rate of fire and prove that inaccurate bump fire is more effective than accurate slower fire.
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Old 13th February 2018, 07:07 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
They do only if the bullets hit someone. You're being evasive, again. How about you supply the post where I claimed bump firing doesn't increase rate of fire and prove that inaccurate bump fire is more effective than accurate slower fire.
You are implying that increasing the rate of fire makes no difference in casualties, actually, you are arguing it right now. I don't believe you. More bullets fired into a crowd = more casualties. For evidence, see Las Vegas Shooting 2017. Also, do bump stocks decrease accuracy?

This company claims it does not: http://www.slidefire.com/
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Old 13th February 2018, 07:27 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
You are implying that increasing the rate of fire makes no difference in casualties, actually, you are arguing it right now.
Actually I said that bullets hitting the target increases casualties; simply increasing the rate of fire doesn't always mean more targets hit. Neither you or I were being specific to the Vegas shooting when posting in this thread.

Quote:
I don't believe you. More bullets fired into a crowd = more casualties. For evidence, see Las Vegas Shooting 2017. Also, do bump stocks decrease accuracy?

This company claims it does not: http://www.slidefire.com/
Yes if the bullets are actually fired into the crowd they will cause more casualties; but if the bullets miss the crowd they do not. How is it you can't understand this?

So you're really going to believe Slide Fire when they claim using bump fire techniques doesn't reduce accuracy? If they claim this, then they think that you, I and anyone else reading their claim is a complete idiot.

ETA; I saw nothing in that link claiming that accuracy is not degraded with bump firing. They didn't show any accuracy claims in their piece of fluff video.

Last edited by Ranb; 13th February 2018 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 13th February 2018, 07:31 AM   #116
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Actually I said that bullets hitting the target increases casualties; simply increasing the rate of fire doesn't always mean more targets hit. Neither you or I were being specific to the Vegas shooting when posting in this thread.


Yes if the bullets are actually fired into the crowd they will cause more casualties; but if the bullets miss the crowd they do not. How is it you can't understand this?

Accuracy means little when shooting the side of a barn, or into a crowded concert.

Quote:

So you're really going to believe Slide Fire when they claim using bump fire techniques doesn't reduce accuracy? If they claim this, then they think that you, I and anyone else reading their claim is a complete idiot.

Well then I think bump stocks should be banned to protect consumers from buying a product that doesn't do what it claims.
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Old 13th February 2018, 07:34 AM   #117
Ranb
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Accuracy means little when shooting the side of a barn, or into a crowded concert.
You're still being evasive. You accused me of something, I want evidence to support your accusation or a retraction.

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Well then I think bump stocks should be banned to protect consumers from buying a product that doesn't do what it claims.
They claim an increased rate of semi-auto fire; it does that.
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Old 13th February 2018, 05:50 PM   #118
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I would say that the slide fire stock allows for less inaccurate firing. No one is accurate with bump fire as far as I can tell.
Originally Posted by Four Guys Guns
After getting my hands on one, I found that all of my initial concerns and reservations about them were really just skepticism and lack of experience. We were able to shoot with accuracy (Close to the accuracy of a full auto, check out the video) and reliability plus if you can’t get your hands on a true full auto it’s pretty darn close.
https://www.fourguysguns.com/article...-stock-review/
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Last edited by P.J. Denyer; 13th February 2018 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 13th February 2018, 06:07 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Accuracy means little when shooting the side of a barn, or into a crowded concert.




Well then I think bump stocks should be banned to protect consumers from buying a product that doesn't do what it claims.
A moment ago you were preaching self righteously about preventing mass murder. Now you've walked it back to false advertising.
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Old 13th February 2018, 06:08 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Protip: Full auto isn't very accurate. Being less accurate than full auto isn't an endorsement.
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