Baltimore Crime Issues - Page 2

Mumbles · 12th August 2017, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Civet

You know, despite not having spent much time in Baltimore, I don't doubt that. Thing is, I also don't doubt that the city has had lots of good people in it for a long time. Many troubled places do. I tend to subscribe to the idea that systems and structures are enormously important in making a civilization work even when you have a basically good population. I haven't spent enough time in Baltimore or even studied it enough from a distance to know exactly what's wrong there (Homicide and the Wire are great shows, but they aren't documentaries).
Since you're a smart guy and you've got the local knowledge, what would you do if you were running things there?

I'm smart, but I'm not that smart. Or rather, it's not a matter of any one person. If I knew of a way a single person could fix things, I'd have done it.

I don't think it's possible.

Instead, I think it's a community issue. It's police, it's parents, and as an atheist, it's churches as well. Basically "all hands on deck".

theprestige · 12th August 2017, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by Civet

130 million? That's absurd. There's just no easy way to close that kind of budget hole. I'd probably legalize drugs and prostitution to try to raise some revenue. Maybe some other dodgy industries that no one else is willing to touch. Baltimore really is screwed.

How does a city like Baltimore have a 130 million education deficit in the first place?

This signature is intended to irradiate people.

ponderingturtle · 14th August 2017, 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater

What's really made it worse is becoming a sanctuary city. Baltimore lost out on federal money, likely because of this. Moreover, current tax dollars are being used to feed and educate illegal immigrants, when it could be going to the children of Baltimore.

This guy is in law enforcement in Baltimore City and has some thought-provoking posts on his timeline.

But immigrants have lower crime rates than native born americans so if they are displacing the native black population that would lower the crime rate in Baltimore surely.

Mumbles · 14th August 2017, 12:38 PM

As much as I despise many of the people he's interviewed by, Michael Wood Jr. discusses policing issues a good deal. Here's an example:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Wolrab · 14th August 2017, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

But immigrants have lower crime rates than native born americans so if they are displacing the native black population that would lower the crime rate in Baltimore surely.

Legal and illegal immigrants?

mgidm86 · 14th August 2017, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

But immigrants have lower crime rates than native born americans so if they are displacing the native black population that would lower the crime rate in Baltimore surely.

Illegal.

Quote:

What's really made it worse is becoming a sanctuary city. Baltimore lost out on federal money, likely because of this. Moreover, current tax dollars are being used to feed and educate illegal immigrants, when it could be going to the children of Baltimore.

This guy is in law enforcement in Baltimore City and has some thought-provoking posts on his timeline.

Kinda funny that cities and states are praised by many for ignoring federal law (weed, sanctuary cities) while we have a Sheriff who was ordered to stop his anti-illegals efforts and was convicted for not doing it. He's accused of a lot of bad things, I know, but that's what he was found guilty of - obstruction.

That is oversimplifying this case and his story, the dude can rot for all I care, and I don't like him, but that is the attitude I see with a lot of people (which is my main point) - that it's okay to ignore immigration law and other laws that they feel are unjust. But if someone else bends the rules - send him to prison.

This issue is full of hypocrisy.

Trump is an idiot if - hahaha gotta laugh at that sentence start. It's a complete sentence without the "if". Anyways, he's an even bigger idiot if he pardons an 85 year old man with a maximum 6 month sentence who will likely serve none of it behind bars. Not worth the backlash. So he'll probably do it.

ponderingturtle · 15th August 2017, 03:59 AM

Originally Posted by Wolrab

Legal and illegal immigrants?

According to the best information we have yes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/u...nts-crime.html

ponderingturtle · 15th August 2017, 04:04 AM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

Illegal.

Still lower crime rates than citizens. Or are you trying to argue that immigration offensese in and of themselves are the true problem in baltimore not the drugs and murder?

Quote:

Kinda funny that cities and states are praised by many for ignoring federal law (weed, sanctuary cities) while we have a Sheriff who was ordered to stop his anti-illegals efforts and was convicted for not doing it. He's accused of a lot of bad things, I know, but that's what he was found guilty of - obstruction.

That is because he was already found guilty of those bad thing, and ordered to stop them. He didn't. As a government official crimes like that in the course of his duties are generally not prosecuted, for one he was setting policy not committing the actual violations. And no one wants to hold public officials legally accountable for their actions. See the outrage in michigan over charging state officials with manslaughter over the deaths from bad water in Flint. For some reason all these huge conservative ideas of personal responsibility never seem to apply to holding those in power responsible for their actions. It is almost as if responsibility is totally anathema to republicans.

Quote:

That is oversimplifying this case and his story, the dude can rot for all I care, and I don't like him, but that is the attitude I see with a lot of people (which is my main point) - that it's okay to ignore immigration law and other laws that they feel are unjust. But if someone else bends the rules - send him to prison.

And like anyone who drives over the speed limit.

Ziggurat · 15th August 2017, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

But immigrants have lower crime rates than native born americans so if they are displacing the native black population that would lower the crime rate in Baltimore surely.

Not if they're driving up unemployment.

ponderingturtle · 15th August 2017, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Not if they're driving up unemployment.

Got a source for that happening though?

Here are jobs for those out of work coal miners.

http://www.independent.com/news/2017...ps-rot-fields/

Ziggurat · 15th August 2017, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Got a source for that happening though?

Oh, I'm not claiming for certain that it is happening. I'm just pointing it out as an obvious logical possibility to consider.

Quote:

Here are jobs for those out of work coal miners.

http://www.independent.com/news/2017...ps-rot-fields/

We're talking about Baltimore, remember?

ponderingturtle · 15th August 2017, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Oh, I'm not claiming for certain that it is happening. I'm just pointing it out as an obvious logical possibility to consider.

We're talking about Baltimore, remember?

I provided data that they are not contributing to unemployment, you have no data, which is the better source for basing policy on?

Ziggurat · 15th August 2017, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

I provided data that they are not contributing to unemployment

No you didn't. You provided data that they themselves don't have higher unemployment rates. That says nothing about how they might affect unemployment of others.

You'd have to assume that labor is completely different than any other economic good to believe that they have no effect. That's a remarkable claim which requires remarkable evidence, and you have none.

Civet · 15th August 2017, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Mumbles

As much as I despise many of the people he's interviewed by, Michael Wood Jr. discusses policing issues a good deal. Here's an example:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Finally found time to watch the video and found it interesting. Some worthwhile ideas in there. Many of them I'd heard before, but his background gives him greater credibility than some activists and academics making similar points. While I think his proposals for community oversight of police might contribute to reigning in some police harassment and use of force issues, I don't think they'd help at all in dealing with the problem of police deliberately staging work slow-downs. Might make it a lot worse since many cops would probably resent greater community control over them. Not just bad cops either.

Mumbles · 15th August 2017, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Civet

Finally found time to watch the video and found it interesting. Some worthwhile ideas in there. Many of them I'd heard before, but his background gives him greater credibility than some activists and academics making similar points. While I think his proposals for community oversight of police might contribute to reigning in some police harassment and use of force issues, I don't think they'd help at all in dealing with the problem of police deliberately staging work slow-downs. Might make it a lot worse since many cops would probably resent greater community control over them. Not just bad cops either.

And that's a large part of the issue. However, many people will say "The police are there when you don't need them, and not there when you do." It's something of an oversimplification, but if you hear it from a lot of people. If the work slowdown is just drug enforcement - the guys who run up and frisk guys at random - then I'm fine. They shouldn't do that kind of thing, anyway.

The question of why there are more homicides? Well, there's theories, but not much clarity. And as Wood states, best bet is simply a far better lead removal program, anyway. Also, consider that the cops who don't want to work under the local population don't want to "serve and protect", and may simply be unsuited for policing anyway.

Civet · 15th August 2017, 12:09 PM

Lead poisoning reduction seems like the sort of thing that would yield a good long-term result and a good return on investment while also playing well with the public. Begs the question of why it hasn't been more of a priority for city government. Too many competing demands for funding, I'd imagine. I get the impression that city treasury isn't exactly flush with cash.

Civet · 29th December 2017, 10:59 AM

A new record set. With murder, it's literally the worst it's ever been. Good news is that there's a lot of opportunity for improvement.

fuelair · 29th December 2017, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Mumbles

There's...a lot here.

Relatives living there agree with you!!!!!

fuelair · 29th December 2017, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Tony

It's either that or chemtrails. I see no other alternative.

If it is evil or protects evil, republicants are generally involved and/or at fault!!!

cmikes · 29th December 2017, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by fuelair

If it is evil or protects evil, republicants are generally involved and/or at fault!!!

Republicans... in Baltimore? You don't much about Baltimore, do you? Or the state of Maryland for that matter. The last Republican mayor of Baltimore left office in 1967 and the city government is uniformly progressive.

Not to say that the Republicans wouldn't be ******* it up just as badly, but in this particular case they're innocent.

Mumbles · 29th December 2017, 07:22 PM

Policing is a major issue here, to be sure. We've seen multiple officers caught planting evidence on their own body cams, an entire department caught in a scandal, the cop that was set to testify against that department turned up dead, the FBI's about to get involved...

This is a mess beyond what any single mayor can fix, even if s/he wanted to - and I kinda doubt that the current mayor wants to.

William Parcher · 29th December 2017, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Mumbles

Policing is a major issue here, to be sure. We've seen multiple officers caught planting evidence on their own body cams, an entire department caught in a scandal, the cop that was set to testify against that department turned up dead, the FBI's about to get involved...

This is a mess beyond what any single mayor can fix, even if s/he wanted to - and I kinda doubt that the current mayor wants to.

The OP is about a different subject. It's about civilian murders and violent crimes, not about some crooked cops.

Mumbles · 29th December 2017, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

The OP is about a different subject. It's about civilian murders and violent crimes, not about some crooked cops.

Guess what happens when the population of a city lose all faith in law enforcement.

William Parcher · 29th December 2017, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by Mumbles

Guess what happens when the population of a city lose all faith in law enforcement.

I'm nearly speechless. The guy who kills his wife because she is cheating does it because he has lost faith in the police?

Strawberry · 29th December 2017, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

I'm nearly speechless. The guy who kills his wife because she is cheating does it because he has lost faith in the police?

You really think Baltimore's high crime rate is due to a spate of murdering husbands and cheating wives?

William Parcher · 29th December 2017, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Strawberry

You really think Baltimore's high crime rate is due to a spate of murdering husbands and cheating wives?

Some of the statistics are bound to be domestic violence. I used it as an example. I can't imagine that it's caused by police distrust rather than spontaneous rage.

Strawberry · 29th December 2017, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

Some of the statistics are bound to be domestic violence. I used it as an example. I can't imagine that it's caused by police distrust rather than spontaneous rage.

And has there been a marked increase in spontaneous rage in Baltimore in the last few years? If not then the increase in crime is not down to spontaneous rage its being driven by something else.

Mumbles · 29th December 2017, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

I'm nearly speechless. The guy who kills his wife because she is cheating does it because he has lost faith in the police?

Now you're simply acting like a clown.

The increase in violent crimes is mostly due to increased gang activity, not domestic violence. And a large part of it is due to the fact that people in Bmore do not trust the police to do their job, and so they take matters into their own hands.

And the thing is, they are correct to say that Bmore's PD is run in an incompetent manner. That's been known for years, but the Freddie Gray murder, along with BPD' blocking high school students from going home on the day of Gray's funeral, and then shooting them with tear gas and rubber bullets because they wouldn't go home, made the matter perfectly clear for everyone.

William Parcher · 29th December 2017, 09:29 PM

According to the article cited in post #57, the city has 343 homicides for this year. In 1993, the city had 353 homicides. There have been changes in the population number but the total number of people killed is less now than 24 years ago.

Civet · 29th December 2017, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Mumbles

This is a mess beyond what any single mayor can fix, even if s/he wanted to - and I kinda doubt that the current mayor wants to.

I don't know much about the current mayor. I do see that she pushed for some law to fight illegal gun possession and that the city council strangled it in its crib. Not sure how much she can do if the city council is going to fight her on something like that.

Mumbles · 30th December 2017, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by Civet

I don't know much about the current mayor. I do see that she pushed for some law to fight illegal gun possession and that the city council strangled it in its crib. Not sure how much she can do if the city council is going to fight her on something like that.

They can be a problem as well. They also mucked around about the Lee-Forrest statue right up until some city residents said "Okay, if it's not gone by this date, we're doing it ourselves." That lit a fire under their arses.

But the community is all in on this issue - the problem is that the government is mucking around, the police union is of course far too protective of bad cops, and there are far too many heavily polluted areas. The community leaders simply do not have effective partners in the city government - and it's at the point where the state governor is openly discussing what he can do at that level to help.

And before anyone even tries, the idea that a republican city council or governor would do better, in the Trump era, is absurd. We're relatively lucky in that our GOP governor, Larry Hogan, is a reasonable republican - he skipped last year's convention entirely, and he's openly working against Dolt45 on behalf of the state's residents. That can't be counted on, however, when it comes to new GOPers.

fuelair · 30th December 2017, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Mumbles

They can be a problem as well. They also mucked around about the Lee-Forrest statue right up until some city residents said "Okay, if it's not gone by this date, we're doing it ourselves." That lit a fire under their arses.

But the community is all in on this issue - the problem is that the government is mucking around, the police union is of course far too protective of bad cops, and there are far too many heavily polluted areas. The community leaders simply do not have effective partners in the city government - and it's at the point where the state governor is openly discussing what he can do at that level to help.

And before anyone even tries, the idea that a republican city council or governor would do better, in the Trump era, is absurd. We're relatively lucky in that our GOP governor, Larry Hogan, is a reasonable republican - he skipped last year's convention entirely, and he's openly working against Dolt45 on behalf of the state's residents. That can't be counted on, however, when it comes to new GOPers.

Well noted (by both of us) and well feces colored!!!!!!

Civet · 30th December 2017, 08:19 PM

The BPD Commissioner wrote an op-ed for the Baltimore Sun. Makes some good noises about things they've done to improve police accountability and reduce misconduct. Not much about how they plan to improve actual crimefighting strategy. Did not know about the manpower issues he'd been dealing with.

Mumbles · 31st December 2017, 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by Civet

The BPD Commissioner wrote an op-ed for the Baltimore Sun. Makes some good noises about things they've done to improve police accountability and reduce misconduct. Not much about how they plan to improve actual crimefighting strategy. Did not know about the manpower issues he'd been dealing with.

Simple manpower is a definite issue as well. I want to emphasize that a lot of the guys investigating crimes, looking out for residents, and so on are good people, doing what they can in a bad system. They aren't some overall menace, but far too much policing these days is driven by numbers, and they *have* to look at them or lose their job. In my opinion, it's not the right approach, if only because it leads to police harassing innocent people.

I know that there are some people in Black Lives Matter that think police forces should flat-out be universally disbanded - and that's the main reason why I don't see myself as a member of BLM, I disagree with that in cases this side of, say, Ferguson's systematic abuse of residents. But I do think that in many cities, major reform is in order.

Mumbles · 31st December 2017, 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by fuelair

Well noted (by both of us) and well feces colored!!!!!!

Heh. I don't agree with Gov. Hogan on everything, obviously, but he's doing a lot to win me over.

Mumbles · 31st December 2017, 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by Civet

Lead poisoning reduction seems like the sort of thing that would yield a good long-term result and a good return on investment while also playing well with the public. Begs the question of why it hasn't been more of a priority for city government. Too many competing demands for funding, I'd imagine. I get the impression that city treasury isn't exactly flush with cash.

Yeah. It's not just b'more, it's a lot of inner-city areas around the country. And I'll say that, of course, science is never definitive, but...it's worth a shot.

I have no hope for the current administration to even pretend to try to reduce this. But Congress, and potentially the 2020 elections, are worth looking into...

Civet · 20th January 2018, 04:25 PM

So the Police Commissioner is out and being replaced by one of his former deputies. Best of luck to the new guy. Some info on his background here. Seems highly experienced. I wonder if his involvement in the accidental killing of a bystander early in his career will create issues.

Mumbles · 24th January 2018, 02:19 AM

Yeah, he wasn't delivering results, but I think his hands were tied to some extent. Gov. Hogan has suggested sending in State Police to aid the city's efforts. Quite a few locals have voiced concerns, but I think it could turn out for the best.

Certainly, they couldn't do better than the Gun Trace Task Force, which the US Assistant AG described as a group of cops that had already gone rogue...

Bob001 · 1st February 2018, 12:17 PM

Baltimore cops on trial for massive corruption:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.54f1fc6089f8
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/mar...126-story.html

Civet · 2nd February 2018, 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Baltimore cops on trial for massive corruption:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.54f1fc6089f8
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/mar...126-story.html

Repulsive and somewhat cinematic. Reminds me of the Rampart scandal out here in Los Angeles. Glad they're going down, but it looks like they only got caught because the feds spotted what was happening. BPD internal affairs was apparently compromised. Lots of room for improvement. I do not envy the new Police Commissioner.

12th August 2017, 10:26 PM	#41
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,470	Originally Posted by Civet You know, despite not having spent much time in Baltimore, I don't doubt that. Thing is, I also don't doubt that the city has had lots of good people in it for a long time. Many troubled places do. I tend to subscribe to the idea that systems and structures are enormously important in making a civilization work even when you have a basically good population. I haven't spent enough time in Baltimore or even studied it enough from a distance to know exactly what's wrong there (Homicide and the Wire are great shows, but they aren't documentaries). Since you're a smart guy and you've got the local knowledge, what would you do if you were running things there? I'm smart, but I'm not that smart. Or rather, it's not a matter of any one person. If I knew of a way a single person could fix things, I'd have done it. I don't think it's possible. Instead, I think it's a community issue. It's police, it's parents, and as an atheist, it's churches as well. Basically "all hands on deck".
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,470

14th August 2017, 04:58 AM	#43
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 42,748	Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater What's really made it worse is becoming a sanctuary city. Baltimore lost out on federal money, likely because of this. Moreover, current tax dollars are being used to feed and educate illegal immigrants, when it could be going to the children of Baltimore. This guy is in law enforcement in Baltimore City and has some thought-provoking posts on his timeline. But immigrants have lower crime rates than native born americans so if they are displacing the native black population that would lower the crime rate in Baltimore surely.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

14th August 2017, 02:37 PM	#45
Wolrab Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,226	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle But immigrants have lower crime rates than native born americans so if they are displacing the native black population that would lower the crime rate in Baltimore surely. Legal and illegal immigrants?
Wolrab Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,226	__________________ "Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov

14th August 2017, 02:38 PM	#46
mgidm86 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,668	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle But immigrants have lower crime rates than native born americans so if they are displacing the native black population that would lower the crime rate in Baltimore surely. Illegal. Quote: What's really made it worse is becoming a sanctuary city. Baltimore lost out on federal money, likely because of this. Moreover, current tax dollars are being used to feed and educate illegal immigrants, when it could be going to the children of Baltimore. This guy is in law enforcement in Baltimore City and has some thought-provoking posts on his timeline. Kinda funny that cities and states are praised by many for ignoring federal law (weed, sanctuary cities) while we have a Sheriff who was ordered to stop his anti-illegals efforts and was convicted for not doing it. He's accused of a lot of bad things, I know, but that's what he was found guilty of - obstruction. That is oversimplifying this case and his story, the dude can rot for all I care, and I don't like him, but that is the attitude I see with a lot of people (which is my main point) - that it's okay to ignore immigration law and other laws that they feel are unjust. But if someone else bends the rules - send him to prison. This issue is full of hypocrisy. Trump is an idiot if - hahaha gotta laugh at that sentence start. It's a complete sentence without the "if". Anyways, he's an even bigger idiot if he pardons an 85 year old man with a maximum 6 month sentence who will likely serve none of it behind bars. Not worth the backlash. So he'll probably do it.
mgidm86 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,668	__________________ I don't care. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/daredevil-dave-2-motorcycle/id1013225596?mt=

15th August 2017, 03:59 AM	#47
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 42,748	Originally Posted by Wolrab Legal and illegal immigrants? According to the best information we have yes. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/u...nts-crime.html
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

12th August 2017, 11:26 PM	#42
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 26,610	Originally Posted by Civet 130 million? That's absurd. There's just no easy way to close that kind of budget hole. I'd probably legalize drugs and prostitution to try to raise some revenue. Maybe some other dodgy industries that no one else is willing to touch. Baltimore really is screwed. How does a city like Baltimore have a 130 million education deficit in the first place? This signature is intended to irradiate people.

15th August 2017, 04:04 AM	#48
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 42,748	Originally Posted by mgidm86 Illegal. Still lower crime rates than citizens. Or are you trying to argue that immigration offensese in and of themselves are the true problem in baltimore not the drugs and murder? Quote: Kinda funny that cities and states are praised by many for ignoring federal law (weed, sanctuary cities) while we have a Sheriff who was ordered to stop his anti-illegals efforts and was convicted for not doing it. He's accused of a lot of bad things, I know, but that's what he was found guilty of - obstruction. That is because he was already found guilty of those bad thing, and ordered to stop them. He didn't. As a government official crimes like that in the course of his duties are generally not prosecuted, for one he was setting policy not committing the actual violations. And no one wants to hold public officials legally accountable for their actions. See the outrage in michigan over charging state officials with manslaughter over the deaths from bad water in Flint. For some reason all these huge conservative ideas of personal responsibility never seem to apply to holding those in power responsible for their actions. It is almost as if responsibility is totally anathema to republicans. Quote: That is oversimplifying this case and his story, the dude can rot for all I care, and I don't like him, but that is the attitude I see with a lot of people (which is my main point) - that it's okay to ignore immigration law and other laws that they feel are unjust. But if someone else bends the rules - send him to prison. And like anyone who drives over the speed limit.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

15th August 2017, 05:59 AM	#49
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 39,159	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle But immigrants have lower crime rates than native born americans so if they are displacing the native black population that would lower the crime rate in Baltimore surely. Not if they're driving up unemployment.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

15th August 2017, 06:07 AM	#50
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 42,748	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Not if they're driving up unemployment. Got a source for that happening though? Here are jobs for those out of work coal miners. http://www.independent.com/news/2017...ps-rot-fields/
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

15th August 2017, 06:48 AM	#51
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 39,159	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Got a source for that happening though? Oh, I'm not claiming for certain that it is happening. I'm just pointing it out as an obvious logical possibility to consider. Quote: Here are jobs for those out of work coal miners. http://www.independent.com/news/2017...ps-rot-fields/ We're talking about Baltimore, remember?
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

15th August 2017, 07:16 AM	#52
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 42,748	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Oh, I'm not claiming for certain that it is happening. I'm just pointing it out as an obvious logical possibility to consider. We're talking about Baltimore, remember? I provided data that they are not contributing to unemployment, you have no data, which is the better source for basing policy on?
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

15th August 2017, 09:10 AM	#53
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 39,159	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle I provided data that they are not contributing to unemployment No you didn't. You provided data that they themselves don't have higher unemployment rates. That says nothing about how they might affect unemployment of others. You'd have to assume that labor is completely different than any other economic good to believe that they have no effect. That's a remarkable claim which requires remarkable evidence, and you have none.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

15th August 2017, 11:26 AM	#55
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,470	Originally Posted by Civet Finally found time to watch the video and found it interesting. Some worthwhile ideas in there. Many of them I'd heard before, but his background gives him greater credibility than some activists and academics making similar points. While I think his proposals for community oversight of police might contribute to reigning in some police harassment and use of force issues, I don't think they'd help at all in dealing with the problem of police deliberately staging work slow-downs. Might make it a lot worse since many cops would probably resent greater community control over them. Not just bad cops either. And that's a large part of the issue. However, many people will say "The police are there when you don't need them, and not there when you do." It's something of an oversimplification, but if you hear it from a lot of people. If the work slowdown is just drug enforcement - the guys who run up and frisk guys at random - then I'm fine. They shouldn't do that kind of thing, anyway. The question of why there are more homicides? Well, there's theories, but not much clarity. And as Wood states, best bet is simply a far better lead removal program, anyway. Also, consider that the cops who don't want to work under the local population don't want to "serve and protect", and may simply be unsuited for policing anyway.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,470

15th August 2017, 12:09 PM	#56
Civet Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,598	Lead poisoning reduction seems like the sort of thing that would yield a good long-term result and a good return on investment while also playing well with the public. Begs the question of why it hasn't been more of a priority for city government. Too many competing demands for funding, I'd imagine. I get the impression that city treasury isn't exactly flush with cash.
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29th December 2017, 10:59 AM	#57
Civet Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,598	A new record set. With murder, it's literally the worst it's ever been. Good news is that there's a lot of opportunity for improvement.
Civet Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,598

29th December 2017, 11:36 AM	#58
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 57,508	Originally Posted by Mumbles There's...a lot here. Relatives living there agree with you!!!!!
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 57,508	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

29th December 2017, 11:39 AM	#59
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 57,508	Originally Posted by Tony It's either that or chemtrails. I see no other alternative. If it is evil or protects evil, republicants are generally involved and/or at fault!!!
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 57,508	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

29th December 2017, 05:34 PM	#60
cmikes Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 396	Originally Posted by fuelair If it is evil or protects evil, republicants are generally involved and/or at fault!!! Republicans... in Baltimore? You don't much about Baltimore, do you? Or the state of Maryland for that matter. The last Republican mayor of Baltimore left office in 1967 and the city government is uniformly progressive. Not to say that the Republicans wouldn't be ******* it up just as badly, but in this particular case they're innocent.
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29th December 2017, 07:22 PM	#61
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,470	Policing is a major issue here, to be sure. We've seen multiple officers caught planting evidence on their own body cams, an entire department caught in a scandal, the cop that was set to testify against that department turned up dead, the FBI's about to get involved... This is a mess beyond what any single mayor can fix, even if s/he wanted to - and I kinda doubt that the current mayor wants to.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,470

29th December 2017, 07:49 PM	#62
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 19,973	Originally Posted by Mumbles Policing is a major issue here, to be sure. We've seen multiple officers caught planting evidence on their own body cams, an entire department caught in a scandal, the cop that was set to testify against that department turned up dead, the FBI's about to get involved... This is a mess beyond what any single mayor can fix, even if s/he wanted to - and I kinda doubt that the current mayor wants to. The OP is about a different subject. It's about civilian murders and violent crimes, not about some crooked cops.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

29th December 2017, 08:35 PM	#63
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,470	Originally Posted by William Parcher The OP is about a different subject. It's about civilian murders and violent crimes, not about some crooked cops. Guess what happens when the population of a city lose all faith in law enforcement.
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29th December 2017, 08:47 PM	#64
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 19,973	Originally Posted by Mumbles Guess what happens when the population of a city lose all faith in law enforcement. I'm nearly speechless. The guy who kills his wife because she is cheating does it because he has lost faith in the police?
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

29th December 2017, 08:48 PM	#65
Strawberry Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 1,489	Originally Posted by William Parcher I'm nearly speechless. The guy who kills his wife because she is cheating does it because he has lost faith in the police? You really think Baltimore's high crime rate is due to a spate of murdering husbands and cheating wives?

29th December 2017, 08:51 PM	#66
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 19,973	Originally Posted by Strawberry You really think Baltimore's high crime rate is due to a spate of murdering husbands and cheating wives? Some of the statistics are bound to be domestic violence. I used it as an example. I can't imagine that it's caused by police distrust rather than spontaneous rage.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

29th December 2017, 08:55 PM	#67
Strawberry Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 1,489	Originally Posted by William Parcher Some of the statistics are bound to be domestic violence. I used it as an example. I can't imagine that it's caused by police distrust rather than spontaneous rage. And has there been a marked increase in spontaneous rage in Baltimore in the last few years? If not then the increase in crime is not down to spontaneous rage its being driven by something else.

29th December 2017, 09:11 PM	#68
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,470	Originally Posted by William Parcher I'm nearly speechless. The guy who kills his wife because she is cheating does it because he has lost faith in the police? Now you're simply acting like a clown. The increase in violent crimes is mostly due to increased gang activity, not domestic violence. And a large part of it is due to the fact that people in Bmore do not trust the police to do their job, and so they take matters into their own hands. And the thing is, they are correct to say that Bmore's PD is run in an incompetent manner. That's been known for years, but the Freddie Gray murder, along with BPD' blocking high school students from going home on the day of Gray's funeral, and then shooting them with tear gas and rubber bullets because they wouldn't go home, made the matter perfectly clear for everyone.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,470

29th December 2017, 09:29 PM	#69
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 19,973	According to the article cited in post #57, the city has 343 homicides for this year. In 1993, the city had 353 homicides. There have been changes in the population number but the total number of people killed is less now than 24 years ago.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

29th December 2017, 09:38 PM	#70
Civet Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,598	Originally Posted by Mumbles This is a mess beyond what any single mayor can fix, even if s/he wanted to - and I kinda doubt that the current mayor wants to. I don't know much about the current mayor. I do see that she pushed for some law to fight illegal gun possession and that the city council strangled it in its crib. Not sure how much she can do if the city council is going to fight her on something like that.
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30th December 2017, 12:36 AM	#71
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,470	Originally Posted by Civet I don't know much about the current mayor. I do see that she pushed for some law to fight illegal gun possession and that the city council strangled it in its crib. Not sure how much she can do if the city council is going to fight her on something like that. They can be a problem as well. They also mucked around about the Lee-Forrest statue right up until some city residents said "Okay, if it's not gone by this date, we're doing it ourselves." That lit a fire under their arses. But the community is all in on this issue - the problem is that the government is mucking around, the police union is of course far too protective of bad cops, and there are far too many heavily polluted areas. The community leaders simply do not have effective partners in the city government - and it's at the point where the state governor is openly discussing what he can do at that level to help. And before anyone even tries, the idea that a republican city council or governor would do better, in the Trump era, is absurd. We're relatively lucky in that our GOP governor, Larry Hogan, is a reasonable republican - he skipped last year's convention entirely, and he's openly working against Dolt45 on behalf of the state's residents. That can't be counted on, however, when it comes to new GOPers.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,470

30th December 2017, 02:18 PM	#72
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 57,508	Originally Posted by Mumbles They can be a problem as well. They also mucked around about the Lee-Forrest statue right up until some city residents said "Okay, if it's not gone by this date, we're doing it ourselves." That lit a fire under their arses. But the community is all in on this issue - the problem is that the government is mucking around, the police union is of course far too protective of bad cops, and there are far too many heavily polluted areas. The community leaders simply do not have effective partners in the city government - and it's at the point where the state governor is openly discussing what he can do at that level to help. And before anyone even tries, the idea that a republican city council or governor would do better, in the Trump era, is absurd. We're relatively lucky in that our GOP governor, Larry Hogan, is a reasonable republican - he skipped last year's convention entirely, and he's openly working against Dolt45 on behalf of the state's residents. That can't be counted on, however, when it comes to new GOPers. Well noted (by both of us) and well feces colored!!!!!!
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 57,508	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

30th December 2017, 08:19 PM	#73
Civet Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,598	The BPD Commissioner wrote an op-ed for the Baltimore Sun. Makes some good noises about things they've done to improve police accountability and reduce misconduct. Not much about how they plan to improve actual crimefighting strategy. Did not know about the manpower issues he'd been dealing with.
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31st December 2017, 04:17 AM	#74
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,470	Originally Posted by Civet The BPD Commissioner wrote an op-ed for the Baltimore Sun. Makes some good noises about things they've done to improve police accountability and reduce misconduct. Not much about how they plan to improve actual crimefighting strategy. Did not know about the manpower issues he'd been dealing with. Simple manpower is a definite issue as well. I want to emphasize that a lot of the guys investigating crimes, looking out for residents, and so on are good people, doing what they can in a bad system. They aren't some overall menace, but far too much policing these days is driven by numbers, and they have to look at them or lose their job. In my opinion, it's not the right approach, if only because it leads to police harassing innocent people. I know that there are some people in Black Lives Matter that think police forces should flat-out be universally disbanded - and that's the main reason why I don't see myself as a member of BLM, I disagree with that in cases this side of, say, Ferguson's systematic abuse of residents. But I do think that in many cities, major reform is in order.
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31st December 2017, 04:18 AM	#75
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,470	Originally Posted by fuelair Well noted (by both of us) and well feces colored!!!!!! Heh. I don't agree with Gov. Hogan on everything, obviously, but he's doing a lot to win me over.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,470

31st December 2017, 05:00 AM	#76
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,470	Originally Posted by Civet Lead poisoning reduction seems like the sort of thing that would yield a good long-term result and a good return on investment while also playing well with the public. Begs the question of why it hasn't been more of a priority for city government. Too many competing demands for funding, I'd imagine. I get the impression that city treasury isn't exactly flush with cash. Yeah. It's not just b'more, it's a lot of inner-city areas around the country. And I'll say that, of course, science is never definitive, but...it's worth a shot. I have no hope for the current administration to even pretend to try to reduce this. But Congress, and potentially the 2020 elections, are worth looking into...
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 5,470

20th January 2018, 04:25 PM	#77
Civet Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,598	So the Police Commissioner is out and being replaced by one of his former deputies. Best of luck to the new guy. Some info on his background here. Seems highly experienced. I wonder if his involvement in the accidental killing of a bystander early in his career will create issues.
Civet Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,598