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Old 25th January 2018, 06:27 PM   #1
Thor 2
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The Uncaring God

I think Christopher Hitchens said it best in one, maybe two, of his presentations, where he mimicked God with arms folded, as he looked down on mankind and did nothing, whilst we struggled on in our primitive fashion, with no guidance or moral compass. I have yet to hear anything approaching a clear explanation of this from any apologist from any of the three Abrahamic God religions.

Now the period of time that God ignored his creations has become dramatically longer:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2...africa/9357276


Quote:
Modern humans were wandering out of Africa at least 180,000 years ago — some 60,000 years earlier than previously thought.

The new migration date comes after ancient stone tools and part of a fossilised Homo sapiens jaw bone with teeth were discovered in a cave in northern Israel.
Until now, the oldest evidence for modern humans outside Africa were only 90,000 to 120,000 years old
.


Now this is in Israel no less - a place that has a special place in God's mind.
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Old 26th January 2018, 06:33 AM   #2
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Someone put this up on Quora as a question just the other day... “Why did God wait so long to give humans some sort of direction, and that only in a little corner of the Middle East?”

Good question... Something I’ve maintained for quite a while... How easy it would have been for God to give humans a nice, coherent set of “rules for living”... Addressing all the human populations on Earth as they were busy migrating out of Africa...

“Oh, and here’s a nice book for you guys you can all read when you figure out how....”
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Old 26th January 2018, 06:43 AM   #3
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I agree - but you are using reason and logic to address beliefs that don't require either, and in many cases actively oppose both.

Mysterious ways ...

Mere mortals can't understand the mind of god ...

Who are we to question ...

etc. etc.
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Old 26th January 2018, 06:49 AM   #4
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Some versions of Gnosticism posited that the Old Testament and New Testament Gods were different beings, with the world and humanity being created by an ignorant and petty lesser being. Author Richard Tierney wrote stories that took it a step further by blending Gnosticism and the Cthulhu Mythos, stating that the Gnostic Demiurge was Azathoth. This tied into some stories by earlier authors, in which the universe had been accidentally created by Azathoth during its mindless writhing and thrashing.
Not only is God uncaring, it's completely mindless, isn't aware that you exist, and created the universe by accident.
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Old 26th January 2018, 07:01 AM   #5
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Even an uncaring god would still be a god.

However, since it is quite unlikely that god does exist at all, then I find to be pointless to debate the emotional motives of god since doing so presupposes that there is actually a god.
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Old 26th January 2018, 07:08 AM   #6
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For the first 90% of Man's existence God was remote and aloof. Then suddenly got really and intimately involved with some clan of 'chosen' people for a time, chatting them up in rather personal terms. Then fell off the radar, essentially, leaving the burgeoning billions coming later to rely on the increasingly out-of-date revelations.
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Old 26th January 2018, 07:19 AM   #7
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Maybe God evolved too, and Monkey God was too bust flinging His Poo around to teach us anything.
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Old 26th January 2018, 01:21 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Even an uncaring god would still be a god.

However, since it is quite unlikely that god does exist at all, then I find to be pointless to debate the emotional motives of god since doing so presupposes that there is actually a god.

Oh I agree absolutely and the question is really put to those that do believe in god or gods. The question is usually feebly parried with the, "We don't know the ways of God" thing, whilst the responder squirms uncomfortably in his/her seat.
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Old 26th January 2018, 02:07 PM   #9
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surely any divine omniscient being would have had WASH YOUR HANDS at the top of any commandments?
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Old 26th January 2018, 02:31 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by mikado View Post
surely any divine omniscient being would have had WASH YOUR HANDS at the top of any commandments?

The Roman Catholic Church is still not up to speed on this one.

Firstly we have the sharing of germs holy water that everyone dips their fingers in as they come in.

Secondly we have the priest putting wafers on peoples tongues with his bare hands, (and we can only guess where those hands have been with alter boys on hand).
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Old 26th January 2018, 02:40 PM   #11
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Why has he ignored his creations for longer if they exited Africa earlier than thought? Wasn't he ignoring them in Africa, too?
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Old 26th January 2018, 03:10 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Why has he ignored his creations for longer if they exited Africa earlier than thought? Wasn't he ignoring them in Africa, too?

The African ones give the faithful a head ache.

Given that those black dudes were supposed to be the descendants of Cain and he was about less than 10,000 years ago it just doesn't fit.

Give it up, evolution is BS.
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Old 26th January 2018, 03:17 PM   #13
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"God works cares in mysterious ways" .
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Old 26th January 2018, 03:20 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The Roman Catholic Church is still not up to speed on this one.

Firstly we have the sharing of germs holy water that everyone dips their fingers in as they come in.

Secondly we have the priest putting wafers on peoples tongues with his bare hands, (and we can only guess where those hands have been with alter boys on hand).
Surely if the font were such a cesspit of disease we'd see thousands of Catholics with cholera and diptheria all over the world.

We don't. We don't see that.
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Old 26th January 2018, 03:44 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Surely if the font were such a cesspit of disease we'd see thousands of Catholics with cholera and diptheria all over the world.

We don't. We don't see that.

Yes well cholera may be transmitted that way I suppose, but not diphtheria as that is spread, from person to person, usually through respiratory droplets.

I have not seen any studies done about prevalence of sickness of Catholics versus others in communities. Our modern knowledge about the cause of spread of illness in general however, must caution us about the communal use of fonts such as these. Catholics may think some protection is gained by the blessing thereof however.
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Old 26th January 2018, 03:52 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes well cholera may be transmitted that way I suppose, but not diphtheria as that is spread, from person to person, usually through respiratory droplets.
Bad example. You'd think that Catholics would at least catch more colds than non-Catholics.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I have not seen any studies done about prevalence of sickness of Catholics versus others in communities...
You haven't seen studies because there is no suggestion that Catholics are more susceptible to disease than people of other religions that don't use a communal font. Hence, no reason to study it.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Our modern knowledge about the cause of spread of illness in general however, must caution us about the communal use of fonts such as these. Catholics may think some protection is gained by the blessing thereof however.
Well there's a pretty strong assumption. Do you have any evidence that Catholics eschew medical care because of their faith?

I'll answer that question myself. No, you don't. Because they don't.

https://www.quora.com/How-often-do-c...water-in-fonts
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Old 26th January 2018, 05:11 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
...and we can only guess where those hands have been with alter boys on hand).
The jokes pretty much rite themselves.
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Old 26th January 2018, 05:37 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Bad example. You'd think that Catholics would at least catch more colds than non-Catholics.
Are you reading what you write? I am not talking about colds but saying diphtheria is unlikely to be spread by fonts.

Quote:
You haven't seen studies because there is no suggestion that Catholics are more susceptible to disease than people of other religions that don't use a communal font. Hence, no reason to study it.

Well there you go there has been a study done:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/study-h...ry?id=20257722

Quote:
The study, published in the Journal of Water and Health, also found that all church and hospital chapel fonts contained bacteria -- the busier the church, the higher the bacterial count.
"This may represent a problem that has hitherto been underestimated, especially in hospitals, since there a lot of people with weakened immune systems there," Kirschner said.
From you:

Quote:
Well there's a pretty strong assumption. Do you have any evidence that Catholics eschew medical care because of their faith?


I'll answer that question myself. No, you don't. Because they don't.


https://www.quora.com/How-often-do-c...water-in-fonts

Did I say that???

But if you are suggesting it's a strong assumption, that dipping your fingers in water full of harmful bacteria could lead to disease, I don't know what to say in response. What is your take on the assumption that washing your hands after going to the toilet is a good idea?
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Old 26th January 2018, 08:07 PM   #19
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I ask people if they believe in evolution. Really believe in evolution. If they say no they are not worth my time. If they say yes I ask when did god decide to make us special.

I'm not as popular as I could be.
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Old 27th January 2018, 02:02 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The African ones give the faithful a head ache.

Given that those black dudes were supposed to be the descendants of Cain and he was about less than 10,000 years ago it just doesn't fit.

Give it up, evolution is BS.
That doesn't really seem to answer my question.
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Old 27th January 2018, 02:51 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
For the first 90% of Man's existence God was remote and aloof. Then suddenly got really and intimately involved with some clan of 'chosen' people for a time, chatting them up in rather personal terms. Then fell off the radar, essentially, leaving the burgeoning billions coming later to rely on the increasingly out-of-date revelations.
I guess he became “intimately involved” at the time humans had developed to the point of asking questions about where the sun went at night and why etc. The answer that gods did it or spirits were responsible necessitated a theology to explain these phenomena.

But now we have science.
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Old 27th January 2018, 02:55 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
The jokes pretty much rite themselves.
Like the priest chasing the altar boy around the church and catching him by the organ. Sorry!
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Old 27th January 2018, 05:02 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Are you reading what you write? I am not talking about colds but saying diphtheria is unlikely to be spread by fonts.
I seem to be not communicating effectively. I already acknowledged that diptheria was a bad example. If the Catholic font were as filthy as you claim, then Catholics across the world would all be catching diseases. Which they aren't.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
But if you are suggesting it's a strong assumption, that dipping your fingers in water full of harmful bacteria could lead to disease, I don't know what to say in response. What is your take on the assumption that washing your hands after going to the toilet is a good idea?
Again, this is my failure to communicate my meaning properly. Yes, a study has found water in fonts that is unsafe to drink. How many Catholics are recorded as being hospitalised because of it?

Anyone? Bueller?
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Old 27th January 2018, 06:23 AM   #24
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I once built a garden shed out of scrap timber and old floorboards. It was a crappy shed, so I let it disintegrate and eventually chopped it up for the stove. Maybe god has a similar attitude to her creation? I'm not looking forward to getting dismantled and burnt, mind
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Old 27th January 2018, 07:34 AM   #25
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When I was a young lad in the 50s, fascinated with a succession of microscopes, my mother worked at a local Catholic-run hospital.
The nun who was in charge of the lab found out about my interest and sent mom home with all manner of test-tubes, slides, pipettes, and other gear.

one day, she sent a test tube of water, with the note, “look at this!”
I put a couple of drops on a slide and found the most fascinating variety of microbes I’d seen to date.
It was water from the holy water font....

Now, I imagine these were all quite harmless bugs, little rotifers and paramecia, but still...
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Old 27th January 2018, 01:53 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
That doesn't really seem to answer my question.

What? You want me to give a serious answer on God's behalf?
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Old 27th January 2018, 02:13 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I seem to be not communicating effectively. I already acknowledged that diptheria was a bad example. If the Catholic font were as filthy as you claim, then Catholics across the world would all be catching diseases. Which they aren't.

Again, this is my failure to communicate my meaning properly. Yes, a study has found water in fonts that is unsafe to drink. How many Catholics are recorded as being hospitalised because of it?

Anyone? Bueller?

Yes you are having a spot of bother communicating here.

Are you only convinced of the hazardous nature of an action, if a study can be produced giving statistical data confirming it? I'm surprised you are still alive!

One doesn't need to drink the contaminated water for it to be a hazard as you must know. Contaminated hands can be brought to the mouth for a variety of reasons, and food may be handled as well. I am more than a little surprised this has to be pointed out to you.
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Old 27th January 2018, 02:18 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
When I was a young lad in the 50s, fascinated with a succession of microscopes, my mother worked at a local Catholic-run hospital.
The nun who was in charge of the lab found out about my interest and sent mom home with all manner of test-tubes, slides, pipettes, and other gear.

one day, she sent a test tube of water, with the note, “look at this!”
I put a couple of drops on a slide and found the most fascinating variety of microbes I’d seen to date.
It was water from the holy water font....

Now, I imagine these were all quite harmless bugs, little rotifers and paramecia, but still...

Maybe what you were seeing was the active ingredient that made the water holy.
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Old 27th January 2018, 02:22 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Finster View Post
I agree - but you are using reason and logic to address beliefs that don't require either, and in many cases actively oppose both.

Mysterious ways ...

Mere mortals can't understand the mind of god ...

Who are we to question ...

etc. etc.
You forgot, it's all our fault because we have choice.
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Old 27th January 2018, 02:36 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I think Christopher Hitchens said it best in one, maybe two, of his presentations, where he mimicked God with arms folded, as he looked down on mankind and did nothing, whilst we struggled on in our primitive fashion, with no guidance or moral compass. I have yet to hear anything approaching a clear explanation of this from any apologist from any of the three Abrahamic God religions.

once again, if you grant the existence of God (which you do in your question), then you already lose the argument. God has far, far more knowledge than we do about everything. If we knew what he did, then his actions would make sense to us.

I don't really spend time explaining to my son why his bedtime is 10:00 p.m. I just tell him to get in bed. Heck, sometimes I let him stay up as late as he wants just so he can experience feeling tired and cranky in the morning. From his perspective, my rule about bedtime is either arbitrary or non-existent. Why would a caring parent let his kid be tired and cranky? He cannot conceive of an explanation. It doesn't mean I don't have one.

When you say that you've never heard a clear explanation from a religious person, I think what you mean is that you haven't heard one that was satisfactory to you. "God has reasons that we lack the ability to understand," seems perfectly clear to me. It also seems consistent with the whole concept of faith.
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Old 27th January 2018, 02:37 PM   #31
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I have expressed my beliefs about God on other threads, but they just get undermined.

But basically we are here to spiritually evolve through trial and error over many, many lifetimes. We act out of free will, and that causes consequences that we have to account for, in this or future incarnations. We are not judged to heaven or hell we are allowed to grow through experience.
As for religions, there have always been some kind of religious beliefs long before the Abrahamic religions. It probably did start in Africa with witch doctors, but every civilisation since has had its Gods. The Egyptians, and the Romans and the Greeks are an example. I personally think the Hindu beliefs are particularly spiritual and a brief survey of the Upanishads should tell you what I mean. Although I do not believe In all the Hindu Gods or subscribe to their belief that we might reincarnate as animals.

What I have learned from spiritualist teachings is that we evolve as a species, or a family of souls, and animals evolve in their own right. This goes on over countless incarnations until we reach a state of grace where we need no further incarnations. After that we continue to grow toward perfection as immortals in the spirit world. Which consist of higher dimensions .

Suffering is permitted because it forces growth in the soul. It takes a lot to change a soul and our struggles make us stronger. Just as animals force each other to evolve in the struggle between prey and predator. But we are immortals in the making, and what we go through on earth is a small price to pay to become refined into eternal beings.

But I know that nobody here will agree with me.
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Old 27th January 2018, 02:59 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
once again, if you grant the existence of God (which you do in your question), then you already lose the argument. God has far, far more knowledge than we do about everything. If we knew what he did, then his actions would make sense to us.

I don't really spend time explaining to my son why his bedtime is 10:00 p.m. I just tell him to get in bed. Heck, sometimes I let him stay up as late as he wants just so he can experience feeling tired and cranky in the morning. From his perspective, my rule about bedtime is either arbitrary or non-existent. Why would a caring parent let his kid be tired and cranky? He cannot conceive of an explanation. It doesn't mean I don't have one.

When you say that you've never heard a clear explanation from a religious person, I think what you mean is that you haven't heard one that was satisfactory to you. "God has reasons that we lack the ability to understand," seems perfectly clear to me. It also seems consistent with the whole concept of faith.

I hypothetically grant the existence of God, (As does Hitchens), to illustrate the absurdity of the concept of this god, who sits on his hands for so long, without caring for his special creation.

If you fall back on the "God has reasons that we lack the ability to understand," explanation there is no point in having holy scripture at all. Serious religious apologists however, go to great lengths to explain the meanings in the actions of their gods. You can't have it both ways.
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Old 27th January 2018, 03:17 PM   #33
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have expressed my beliefs about God on other threads, but they just get undermined.

But basically we are here to spiritually evolve through trial and error over many, many lifetimes. We act out of free will, and that causes consequences that we have to account for, in this or future incarnations. We are not judged to heaven or hell we are allowed to grow through experience.
As for religions, there have always been some kind of religious beliefs long before the Abrahamic religions. It probably did start in Africa with witch doctors, but every civilisation since has had its Gods. The Egyptians, and the Romans and the Greeks are an example. I personally think the Hindu beliefs are particularly spiritual and a brief survey of the Upanishads should tell you what I mean. Although I do not believe In all the Hindu Gods or subscribe to their belief that we might reincarnate as animals.

What I have learned from spiritualist teachings is that we evolve as a species, or a family of souls, and animals evolve in their own right. This goes on over countless incarnations until we reach a state of grace where we need no further incarnations. After that we continue to grow toward perfection as immortals in the spirit world. Which consist of higher dimensions .

Suffering is permitted because it forces growth in the soul. It takes a lot to change a soul and our struggles make us stronger. Just as animals force each other to evolve in the struggle between prey and predator. But we are immortals in the making, and what we go through on earth is a small price to pay to become refined into eternal beings.

But I know that nobody here will agree with me.

You are somewhat off topic here Scorpion as this thread is about a single creator type god, (the Abrahamic kind), and his indifference to the wellbeing of his special creation, (us).

None the less it is sad to hear you think your ideas are undermined and your forgone conclusion that "nobody here will agree with me".

From my observation your ideas have been questioned with vigour by many here and your answers found wanting. When it all gets to much you bail out. I am still waiting for answers to my questions, about the appearance of souls when newly attached to embryos, and the ability of your mediums to contact souls, that have moved on to other incarnations.
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Old 27th January 2018, 03:43 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
once again, if you grant the existence of God (which you do in your question), then you already lose the argument. God has far, far more knowledge than we do about everything. If we knew what he did, then his actions would make sense to us.

I don't really spend time explaining to my son why his bedtime is 10:00 p.m. I just tell him to get in bed. Heck, sometimes I let him stay up as late as he wants just so he can experience feeling tired and cranky in the morning. From his perspective, my rule about bedtime is either arbitrary or non-existent. Why would a caring parent let his kid be tired and cranky? He cannot conceive of an explanation. It doesn't mean I don't have one.

When you say that you've never heard a clear explanation from a religious person, I think what you mean is that you haven't heard one that was satisfactory to you. "God has reasons that we lack the ability to understand," seems perfectly clear to me. It also seems consistent with the whole concept of faith.
The big problem of course with your analysis is it is all based on special pleading, hope and circular reasoning. God is the ultimate tautology.

Hebrews 11:1: defines faith as the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.”

Faith is basically an excuse as Loyola said to 'sacrifice one's intellect'.

Something I refuse to do for any man or their revelation of a greater being.

Why is it that humans do not use faith to determine the truth of absolutely nothing else? Why do they make an exception for this idea that they call God?
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Old 27th January 2018, 07:14 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes you are having a spot of bother communicating here.

Are you only convinced of the hazardous nature of an action, if a study can be produced giving statistical data confirming it? I'm surprised you are still alive!

One doesn't need to drink the contaminated water for it to be a hazard as you must know. Contaminated hands can be brought to the mouth for a variety of reasons, and food may be handled as well. I am more than a little surprised this has to be pointed out to you.
A hazard that never harms anyone isn't a hazard at all.

Which isn't the case for fonts, by the way, which I'm pretty sure have harmed people - probably mostly in developing countries and in poor areas where hygiene is poor anyway.

I still maintain that if they were as dangerous as you are making out, we'd see a lot more diseased Catholics than we do. Hence I suppose that they're not all that dangerous and you're exaggerating for ideological purposes.
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Old 27th January 2018, 11:52 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A hazard that never harms anyone isn't a hazard at all.

Which isn't the case for fonts, by the way, which I'm pretty sure have harmed people - probably mostly in developing countries and in poor areas where hygiene is poor anyway.

I still maintain that if they were as dangerous as you are making out, we'd see a lot more diseased Catholics than we do. Hence I suppose that they're not all that dangerous and you're exaggerating for ideological purposes.

My we are struggling here aren't we.

A hazard that never harms anyone and yet you concede that they may have harmed people in "developing countries".

"Ideological purposes" indeed? What ideology would that be?
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Old 28th January 2018, 12:17 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have expressed my beliefs about God on other threads, but they just get undermined.
People point out how incoherent, inconsistent and lacking in evidence and explanatory power they are, yes.

Quote:
But I know that nobody here will agree with me.
People for whom the above are important considerations when deciding what to believe will never agree with you, no.
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Old 28th January 2018, 12:31 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A hazard that never harms anyone isn't a hazard at all.

Which isn't the case for fonts, by the way, which I'm pretty sure have harmed people - probably mostly in developing countries and in poor areas where hygiene is poor anyway.

I still maintain that if they were as dangerous as you are making out, we'd see a lot more diseased Catholics than we do. Hence I suppose that they're not all that dangerous and you're exaggerating for ideological purposes.
I do recall reading an article a few years ago about doctors expressing concern about a religious practise in a (Russian orthodox I think it was) community in which a particularly virulent virus was spreading like wildfire. Apparently there was an icon in the church which every worshipper kissed after every service. I can certainly see how that could be a problem during any outbreak of an infectious disease. I don't recall ever seeing anything about the dangers of fonts, though.
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Old 28th January 2018, 01:16 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have expressed my beliefs about God on other threads, but they just get undermined.

But basically we are here to spiritually evolve through trial and error over many, many lifetimes. We act out of free will, and that causes consequences that we have to account for, in this or future incarnations. We are not judged to heaven or hell we are allowed to grow through experience.
As for religions, there have always been some kind of religious beliefs long before the Abrahamic religions. It probably did start in Africa with witch doctors, but every civilisation since has had its Gods. The Egyptians, and the Romans and the Greeks are an example. I personally think the Hindu beliefs are particularly spiritual and a brief survey of the Upanishads should tell you what I mean. Although I do not believe In all the Hindu Gods or subscribe to their belief that we might reincarnate as animals.

What I have learned from spiritualist teachings is that we evolve as a species, or a family of souls, and animals evolve in their own right. This goes on over countless incarnations until we reach a state of grace where we need no further incarnations. After that we continue to grow toward perfection as immortals in the spirit world. Which consist of higher dimensions .

Suffering is permitted because it forces growth in the soul. It takes a lot to change a soul and our struggles make us stronger. Just as animals force each other to evolve in the struggle between prey and predator. But we are immortals in the making, and what we go through on earth is a small price to pay to become refined into eternal beings.

But I know that nobody here will agree with me.
Right, so your god is all good with children who are born and promptly die from the variety of fun diseases that afflict new born infants.

Explain please how that works.
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Old 28th January 2018, 02:07 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
What? You want me to give a serious answer on God's behalf?
I'd like to know why you think God wasn't ignoring humans in Africa.

I suppose a related question, which you might find easier to answer, is why is this thread in the Religion subforum, rather than the Science one, since the story has nothing to do with the former and you seem unable to explain the relevance of your mentioning God in this context.
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