The Uncaring God - Page 2

abaddon · 28th January 2018, 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

I'd like to know why you think God wasn't ignoring humans in Africa.

Bible god ignored everyone. He/she/it/housecat was an equal opportunity butcher.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

I suppose a related question, which you might find easier to answer, is why is this thread in the Religion subforum, rather than the Science one, since the story has nothing to do with the former and you seem unable to explain the relevance of your mentioning God in this context.

Because god is not science, or scientific or any such thing. God has no place in science. One of those things is not like the other. Did sesame street teach you nothing?

Squeegee Beckenheim · 28th January 2018, 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by abaddon

Bible god ignored everyone.

That is not the premise of the OP.

Quote:

Because god is not science, or scientific or any such thing. God has no place in science. One of those things is not like the other. Did sesame street teach you nothing?

You believe that the fact that God has no place in science is the reason why the OP inserts God into science?

Scorpion · 28th January 2018, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by abaddon

Right, so your god is all good with children who are born and promptly die from the variety of fun diseases that afflict new born infants.

Explain please how that works.

We are immortals, the children simply return to the spirit world for a time, after which they get another chance at a better life. The spirit world say that if there is injustice in a death then the person will be compensated in the next life.

It is arguable that it does not matter when children die.

The Bhagavad Gita has a discourse in which one the eve of a great battle Krishna points out that although it seems terrible that a civil war would pit brother against brother, they are all immortals, so in the end it does not matter who dies in war.

Sorry if this is off topic, but you did ask. As for the restriction of keeping it to Abrahamic beliefs I don't see the point because mankind has believed in many Gods. The bible may have no explanation for an apparently uncaring God but other religions do.
The Africans had their witch doctors.

Pixel42 · 28th January 2018, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by Scorpion

It is arguable that it does not matter when children die.

The Bhagavad Gita has a discourse in which one the eve of a great battle Krishna points out that although it seems terrible that a civil war would pit brother against brother, they are all immortals, so in the end it does not matter who dies in war.

And if you and the Bhagavad Gita are wrong, which you almost certainly are given that these beliefs are unevidenced and make no sense? Do you see that you are excusing atrocities on the flimsiest of pretexts?

If this life is all there is then it certainly does matter when children die, and that brothers are killing each other. Surely it is better to behave as if that was the case, in which case any afterlife is a nice bonus, than to behave as if totally irrational beliefs are certainties and waste the only life there is.

Bikewer · 28th January 2018, 07:00 AM

This notion, popular in Hinduism, that reincarnation somehow addresses inequities, leads to some really horrible situations.
Like the rigidly divided caste system and the fact that the poor may be ignored. Indeed (and I’ve heard this expressed by western folks as well...) that trying to help the poor, sick, and downtrodden is not only futile, it’s actually wrong.
The wretches are paying for their past misdeeds, you see...
Let ‘em suffer, they brought it on themselves. Since MY butt is in the butter, I must have been good in a previous life.

Scorpion · 28th January 2018, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

And if you and the Bhagavad Gita are wrong, which you almost certainly are given that these beliefs are unevidenced and make no sense? Do you see that you are excusing atrocities on the flimsiest of pretexts?

If this life is all there is then it certainly does matter when children die, and that brothers are killing each other. Surely it is better to behave as if that was the case, in which case any afterlife is a nice bonus, than to behave as if totally irrational beliefs are certainties and waste the only life there is.

If this life is all there is then its arguable that death itself is not important, because we will simply go to oblivion, and that will end all suffering.

Pixel42 · 28th January 2018, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by Scorpion

If this life is all there is then its arguable that death itself is not important, because we will simply go to oblivion, and that will end all suffering.

If this life is all there is then it's up to us to make the most of it, and to alleviate suffering.

LSSBB · 28th January 2018, 07:47 AM

The discussion seems a strawman. There needs to be more highlighting of assumptions. Are omniscience and omnipotence necessary to the definition of God? Does God have to have Islamic/Christian/Judaic trappings with regard to Israel, etc.? Is the Bible (what flavor) or any given portion thereof necessary to the concept of God?

Is this just a God call-out thread? Everybody pile on?

acbytesla · 28th January 2018, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

The discussion seems a strawman. There needs to be more highlighting of assumptions. Are omniscience and omnipotence necessary to the definition of God? Does God have to have Islamic/Christian/Judaic trappings with regard to Israel, etc.? Is the Bible (what flavor) or any given portion thereof necessary to the concept of God?

Is this just a God call-out thread? Everybody pile on?

This is a skeptic's forum. God like all imaginary beings always fails to pass the critical thinking test.

I've been trying to reconcile religion with intellect for the last 3 decades and fail miserably. If someone can show me with credible evidence that God is more than an idea created in one's mind, I'm open to it. But everyone that tries fails just like I did.

I've come to the brutal conclusion that despite the community and comfort religion provides for it believers it is and has always been a toxic and destructive superstition for mankind as a whole.

arthwollipot · 28th January 2018, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

"Ideological purposes" indeed? What ideology would that be?

Why, antitheism, of course.

acbytesla · 28th January 2018, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Why, antitheism, of course.

LMAO. Seriously? Is this during the War on Christmas?

abaddon · 28th January 2018, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Scorpion

If this life is all there is then its arguable that death itself is not important, because we will simply go to oblivion, and that will end all suffering.

Wrong. If this life is all there is then all the more reason to maximise the one and only life that each of us has.

The atheist simply realises that this is a "one-shot". Get it wrong and there are no second chances.

Theists, generally, believe that death-bed confession forgives any "sin". If anything, theism is a recipe for disaster. Regardless of whatever heinous sins one may have committed over the course of a life, one may simply ask forgiveness on the death bed and all is well. Reincarnation is even worse (although not even vaguely christian) That is a sentence even worse than death. Have a life and keep on repeating it in various forms until you get it right. Who defines that?

jrhowell · 28th January 2018, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by abaddon

Regardless of whatever heinous sins one may have committed over the course of a life, one may simply ask forgiveness on the death bed and all is well.

And for an atheist, like me, the nothingness of death erases all pride in a life well lived or guilt over a selfish one. In the end it won’t matter to me how I lived my life.

In either case other biological and cultural factors have more influence on day to day living than the anticipated end does.

acbytesla · 28th January 2018, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by jrhowell

And for an atheist, like me, the nothingness of death erases all pride in a life well lived or guilt over a selfish one. In the end it won’t matter to me how I lived my life.

In either case other biological and cultural factors have more influence on day to day living than the anticipated end does.

Yes, they do. But we must live the life we are presented with. That is our fate. I remember a scene from the movie Lion in Winter where three men were waiting possible execution in the Tower of London one of them said 'he was not going to beg for his life, and on of the other two said 'You fool, what does it matter how a man falls down'? The first said 'when the fall that is all that it is left, it matters'.

I have sky dived a few times which is amazing. I distinctly remember the moment before I jumped for the first time. The terror I felt was real as was the spectacular elation I felt after I left the safety of the airplane. Also, the disappointment and relief when the parachute opened. Nothing in my life before or since can compare to those moments when I was freefalling.

That said, I believe the ultimate test for me would be how I would react if my chute didn't open. Would I be seized by fear in terror? (Most likely) Or could I enjoy the rest of my fall? (Doubtful, but I would hope I could)

Thor 2 · 2nd February 2018, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

That is not the premise of the OP.

You believe that the fact that God has no place in science is the reason why the OP inserts God into science?

I have no idea what you may think is the premise of the OP.

The premise as I have been trying to illustrate, (and seemingly others here are on the same page as me), is the concept of a god making us as his special creation, but then ignoring us for so long, is absurd.

Thor 2 · 2nd February 2018, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Why, antitheism, of course.

Hey right on!

I'd like to get into that ideology. Is there a book of scripture that I can get hold of somewhere?

Thor 2 · 2nd February 2018, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Senex

I ask people if they believe in evolution. Really believe in evolution. If they say no they are not worth my time. If they say yes I ask when did god decide to make us special.

I'm not as popular as I could be.

One of my favourite prods for the faithful also Senex.

I would argue, (putting myself in the shoes of the theist), that God did some tweaking with the evolutionary development, so that man came to resemble himself.

When the likeness was identical he picked one man, and one woman (who resembled his female side), and handed out souls.

I think this is an elegant explanation and wouldn't be surprised if some theists adopted it. I can just just imagine Lane Craig picking it up and running with it. Just remember it came from me first.

Humots · 2nd February 2018, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

One of my favourite prods for the faithful also Senex.

I would argue, (putting myself in the shoes of the theist), that God did some tweaking with the evolutionary development, so that man came to resemble himself.

When the likeness was identical he picked one man, and one woman (who resembled his female side), and handed out souls.

I think this is an elegant explanation and wouldn't be surprised if some theists adopted it. I can just just imagine Lane Craig picking it up and running with it. Just remember it came from me first.

It's not original with you.

The science writer Martin Gardner wrote a story, "The Horrible Horns", in which he discusses this idea and points out a problem.

This would mean that at some time in human history there was a society in which soulless adults raised children with souls.

Don't most people think that having a soul means more than just a pass to an afterlife?

That having a soul is the fundamental difference between a human and being a beast?

In the story, an artist paints a picture showing "Adam" and "Eve" as the first children with souls, being nursed by a mother with eyes that were "cold, bestial, uncomprehending," "two windows behind which no human soul was sitting."

Humots · 2nd February 2018, 05:05 PM

Sorry, double post.

Thor 2 · 2nd February 2018, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Humots

It's not original with you.

The science writer Martin Gardner wrote a story, "The Horrible Horns", in which he discusses this idea and points out a problem.

This would mean that at some time in human history there was a society in which soulless adults raised children with souls.

Don't most people think that having a soul means more than just a pass to an afterlife?

That having a soul is the fundamental difference between a human and being a beast?

In the story, an artist paints a picture showing "Adam" and "Eve" as the first children with souls, being nursed by a mother with eyes that were "cold, bestial, uncomprehending," "two windows behind which no human soul was sitting."

Well I did have it as an original thought that popped into my head without prompting.

Could not get any info about "The Horrible Horns" from your link but non the less I take your word for it. Maybe this Martin Gardner pinched the idea from me.

Humots · 2nd February 2018, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Well I did have it as an original thought that popped into my head without prompting.

Could not get any info about "The Horrible Horns" from your link but non the less I take your word for it. Maybe this Martin Gardner pinched the idea from me.

Not likely. The story was published in 1951.

I was two years old then. How about you?

Martin Gardner wrote the Mathematical Games article in Scientific American for many years. He was an active skeptic, writing books such as "Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science" and "Science Good Bad and Bogus."

He was a friend of James Randi and one of the founders of CSI.

Thor 2 · 3rd February 2018, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Humots

Not likely. The story was published in 1951.

I was two years old then. How about you?

Martin Gardner wrote the Mathematical Games article in Scientific American for many years. He was an active skeptic, writing books such as "Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science" and "Science Good Bad and Bogus."

He was a friend of James Randi and one of the founders of CSI.

I was joking about Martin stealing the idea from me.

I use the term "original thought" in a loose way, meaning I did not borrow it from someone else. Many others, I feel sure, have had this same idea, and some before Martin also.

Interesting that our present day prominent atheists don't play on this however.

acbytesla · 3rd February 2018, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

I was joking about Martin stealing the idea from me.

I use the term "original thought" in a loose way, meaning I did not borrow it from someone else. Many others, I feel sure, have had this same idea, and some before Martin also.

Interesting that our present day prominent atheists don't play on this however.

I think this happens all the time. I know I have come up with new ideas which turned out to be very very old ideas. It's not that your thought had to originate from earlier writings, just that many people come to the same conclusions. Some just have the wherewithall to have lived before us.

ynot · 3rd February 2018, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I think this happens all the time. I know I have come up with new ideas which turned out to be very very old ideas. It's not that your thought had to originate from earlier writings, just that many people come to the same conclusions. Some just have the wherewithall to have lived before us.

"Great minds think alike, fools never differ"

acbytesla · 3rd February 2018, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by ynot

"Great minds think alike, fools never differ"

Something like that.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 4th February 2018, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

I have no idea what you may think is the premise of the OP.

The premise as I have been trying to illustrate, (and seemingly others here are on the same page as me), is the concept of a god making us as his special creation, but then ignoring us for so long, is absurd.

I'm trying to understand what connection you believe there is between that and a news story about a new hypothesis about when humans migrated out of Africa. You're talking about religion, but linked to a story about science.

arthwollipot · 4th February 2018, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Hey right on!

I'd like to get into that ideology. Is there a book of scripture that I can get hold of somewhere?

Does all ideology have to have a book of scripture in order to be an ideology?

abaddon · 4th February 2018, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Does all ideology have to have a book of scripture in order to be an ideology?

No, but that is not at issue in this discussion because the religion in question does have a book. A book which the "faithful" mostly ignore.

Thor 2 · 4th February 2018, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

I'm trying to understand what connection you believe there is between that and a news story about a new hypothesis about when humans migrated out of Africa. You're talking about religion, but linked to a story about science.

I'm beginning to see where the problem is here ..... you didn't read the OP!

At the risk of labouring the point, I was drawing attention to the fact, that man has been in God's special place, for a lot longer than previously thought. This we have now learned by the application of modern science.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 5th February 2018, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

I'm beginning to see where the problem is here ..... you didn't read the OP!

At the risk of labouring the point, I was drawing attention to the fact, that man has been in God's special place, for a lot longer than previously thought. This we have now learned by the application of modern science.

What do you mean by "God's special place"?

arthwollipot · 5th February 2018, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

What do you mean by "God's special place"?

Israel.

Even I can see that.

Thor 2 · 5th February 2018, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Israel.

Even I can see that.

Thank you arth.

I was somewhat surprised by the question also.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 6th February 2018, 02:51 AM

And the argument of the thread is that God helped people in Africa, but started ignoring them once they'd reached Israel, so that they reached Israel earlier than previously thought means that he's been ignoring them for longer?

Thor 2 · 6th February 2018, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

And the argument of the thread is that God helped people in Africa, but started ignoring them once they'd reached Israel, so that they reached Israel earlier than previously thought means that he's been ignoring them for longer?

Yes well we know about people like you, who have this knack of reading something and putting a different interpretation on the words, so it means something at odds with what most others, (and indeed the author), is trying to say.

arthwollipot · 6th February 2018, 11:44 PM

It helps to actually read the article.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 7th February 2018, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Yes well we know about people like you, who have this knack of reading something and putting a different interpretation on the words, so it means something at odds with what most others, (and indeed the author), is trying to say.

I'm genuinely trying to understand what you're talking about.

As far as I can tell, your argument is that the evidence that humans were in "God's special place" earlier than previously thought means that God was "uncaring" towards them for longer than previously thought. That implies that he was uncaring towards them while they were in his "special place". That further implies that either he wasn't uncaring towards humans before they were in that special place - which means that he was caring towards them while they were still in Africa - or that they didn't exist before they were in his "special place" - which is contradicted by the article linked in the OP.

If you can explain where I'm going wrong, and what it is that you actually mean, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 7th February 2018, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

It helps to actually read the article.

The article doesn't mention God at all.

arthwollipot · 7th February 2018, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

The article doesn't mention God at all.

But it does mention Israel, and you apparently missed that.

Thor 2 · 7th February 2018, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

I'm genuinely trying to understand what you're talking about.

....... Issue clouding spiel .....

If you can explain where I'm going wrong, and what it is that you actually mean, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Yes sure.

Sometime in your life you may have come upon a book that mentions a God of Abraham. The Bible is one such book, (you've heard of it?), and in it's pages this god is doing all kinds of stuff and talking to people. This all happens in one area of the World where Israel is located. That's why I refer to this location as "God's special place."

We may assume from this that this god was not interested in humanoid beings in other parts of the World. The faithful may argue it was in this location that man was first fitted out with souls. Given the huge difference in the Biblical account of the history of soul equiped, (God's image type), people and the scientific account of the history of man in the area, we must conclude that the god in question was not all that interested for a long time.

arthwollipot · 7th February 2018, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

"God's special place."

Perhaps better known to most as "The Promised Land".

28th January 2018, 02:16 AM	#41
abaddon Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 18,289	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim I'd like to know why you think God wasn't ignoring humans in Africa. Bible god ignored everyone. He/she/it/housecat was an equal opportunity butcher. Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim I suppose a related question, which you might find easier to answer, is why is this thread in the Religion subforum, rather than the Science one, since the story has nothing to do with the former and you seem unable to explain the relevance of your mentioning God in this context. Because god is not science, or scientific or any such thing. God has no place in science. One of those things is not like the other. Did sesame street teach you nothing?
	__________________ Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes...

28th January 2018, 04:18 AM	#42
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 23,160	Originally Posted by abaddon Bible god ignored everyone. That is not the premise of the OP. Quote: Because god is not science, or scientific or any such thing. God has no place in science. One of those things is not like the other. Did sesame street teach you nothing? You believe that the fact that God has no place in science is the reason why the OP inserts God into science?
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

28th January 2018, 06:34 AM	#43
Scorpion Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,417	Originally Posted by abaddon Right, so your god is all good with children who are born and promptly die from the variety of fun diseases that afflict new born infants. Explain please how that works. We are immortals, the children simply return to the spirit world for a time, after which they get another chance at a better life. The spirit world say that if there is injustice in a death then the person will be compensated in the next life. It is arguable that it does not matter when children die. The Bhagavad Gita has a discourse in which one the eve of a great battle Krishna points out that although it seems terrible that a civil war would pit brother against brother, they are all immortals, so in the end it does not matter who dies in war. Sorry if this is off topic, but you did ask. As for the restriction of keeping it to Abrahamic beliefs I don't see the point because mankind has believed in many Gods. The bible may have no explanation for an apparently uncaring God but other religions do. The Africans had their witch doctors.
	__________________ You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God. Sri Ramakrishna Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six. Leo Tolstoy

28th January 2018, 06:44 AM	#44
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 10,729	Originally Posted by Scorpion It is arguable that it does not matter when children die. The Bhagavad Gita has a discourse in which one the eve of a great battle Krishna points out that although it seems terrible that a civil war would pit brother against brother, they are all immortals, so in the end it does not matter who dies in war. And if you and the Bhagavad Gita are wrong, which you almost certainly are given that these beliefs are unevidenced and make no sense? Do you see that you are excusing atrocities on the flimsiest of pretexts? If this life is all there is then it certainly does matter when children die, and that brothers are killing each other. Surely it is better to behave as if that was the case, in which case any afterlife is a nice bonus, than to behave as if totally irrational beliefs are certainties and waste the only life there is.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

28th January 2018, 07:02 AM	#46
Scorpion Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,417	Originally Posted by Pixel42 And if you and the Bhagavad Gita are wrong, which you almost certainly are given that these beliefs are unevidenced and make no sense? Do you see that you are excusing atrocities on the flimsiest of pretexts? If this life is all there is then it certainly does matter when children die, and that brothers are killing each other. Surely it is better to behave as if that was the case, in which case any afterlife is a nice bonus, than to behave as if totally irrational beliefs are certainties and waste the only life there is. If this life is all there is then its arguable that death itself is not important, because we will simply go to oblivion, and that will end all suffering.
	__________________ You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God. Sri Ramakrishna Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six. Leo Tolstoy

28th January 2018, 07:00 AM	#45
Bikewer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 12,392	This notion, popular in Hinduism, that reincarnation somehow addresses inequities, leads to some really horrible situations. Like the rigidly divided caste system and the fact that the poor may be ignored. Indeed (and I’ve heard this expressed by western folks as well...) that trying to help the poor, sick, and downtrodden is not only futile, it’s actually wrong. The wretches are paying for their past misdeeds, you see... Let ‘em suffer, they brought it on themselves. Since MY butt is in the butter, I must have been good in a previous life.

28th January 2018, 07:11 AM	#47
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 10,729	Originally Posted by Scorpion If this life is all there is then its arguable that death itself is not important, because we will simply go to oblivion, and that will end all suffering. If this life is all there is then it's up to us to make the most of it, and to alleviate suffering.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

28th January 2018, 07:47 AM	#48
LSSBB Devilish Dictionarian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery Posts: 19,950	The discussion seems a strawman. There needs to be more highlighting of assumptions. Are omniscience and omnipotence necessary to the definition of God? Does God have to have Islamic/Christian/Judaic trappings with regard to Israel, etc.? Is the Bible (what flavor) or any given portion thereof necessary to the concept of God? Is this just a God call-out thread? Everybody pile on?
	__________________ "You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles

28th January 2018, 09:59 AM	#49
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 20,414	Originally Posted by LSSBB The discussion seems a strawman. There needs to be more highlighting of assumptions. Are omniscience and omnipotence necessary to the definition of God? Does God have to have Islamic/Christian/Judaic trappings with regard to Israel, etc.? Is the Bible (what flavor) or any given portion thereof necessary to the concept of God? Is this just a God call-out thread? Everybody pile on? This is a skeptic's forum. God like all imaginary beings always fails to pass the critical thinking test. I've been trying to reconcile religion with intellect for the last 3 decades and fail miserably. If someone can show me with credible evidence that God is more than an idea created in one's mind, I'm open to it. But everyone that tries fails just like I did. I've come to the brutal conclusion that despite the community and comfort religion provides for it believers it is and has always been a toxic and destructive superstition for mankind as a whole.
	__________________ “ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume

28th January 2018, 12:09 PM	#50
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 60,381	Originally Posted by Thor 2 "Ideological purposes" indeed? What ideology would that be? Why, antitheism, of course.

28th January 2018, 12:40 PM	#51
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 20,414	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Why, antitheism, of course. LMAO. Seriously? Is this during the War on Christmas?
	__________________ “ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume

28th January 2018, 03:19 PM	#52
abaddon Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 18,289	Originally Posted by Scorpion If this life is all there is then its arguable that death itself is not important, because we will simply go to oblivion, and that will end all suffering. Wrong. If this life is all there is then all the more reason to maximise the one and only life that each of us has. The atheist simply realises that this is a "one-shot". Get it wrong and there are no second chances. Theists, generally, believe that death-bed confession forgives any "sin". If anything, theism is a recipe for disaster. Regardless of whatever heinous sins one may have committed over the course of a life, one may simply ask forgiveness on the death bed and all is well. Reincarnation is even worse (although not even vaguely christian) That is a sentence even worse than death. Have a life and keep on repeating it in various forms until you get it right. Who defines that?
	__________________ Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes...

28th January 2018, 04:35 PM	#53
jrhowell Muse Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 583	Originally Posted by abaddon Regardless of whatever heinous sins one may have committed over the course of a life, one may simply ask forgiveness on the death bed and all is well. And for an atheist, like me, the nothingness of death erases all pride in a life well lived or guilt over a selfish one. In the end it won’t matter to me how I lived my life. In either case other biological and cultural factors have more influence on day to day living than the anticipated end does.
jrhowell Muse Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 583

28th January 2018, 05:23 PM	#54
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 20,414	Originally Posted by jrhowell And for an atheist, like me, the nothingness of death erases all pride in a life well lived or guilt over a selfish one. In the end it won’t matter to me how I lived my life. In either case other biological and cultural factors have more influence on day to day living than the anticipated end does. Yes, they do. But we must live the life we are presented with. That is our fate. I remember a scene from the movie Lion in Winter where three men were waiting possible execution in the Tower of London one of them said 'he was not going to beg for his life, and on of the other two said 'You fool, what does it matter how a man falls down'? The first said 'when the fall that is all that it is left, it matters'. I have sky dived a few times which is amazing. I distinctly remember the moment before I jumped for the first time. The terror I felt was real as was the spectacular elation I felt after I left the safety of the airplane. Also, the disappointment and relief when the parachute opened. Nothing in my life before or since can compare to those moments when I was freefalling. That said, I believe the ultimate test for me would be how I would react if my chute didn't open. Would I be seized by fear in terror? (Most likely) Or could I enjoy the rest of my fall? (Doubtful, but I would hope I could)
	__________________ “ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume

2nd February 2018, 02:04 PM	#55
Thor 2 Illuminator Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 4,563	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim That is not the premise of the OP. You believe that the fact that God has no place in science is the reason why the OP inserts God into science? I have no idea what you may think is the premise of the OP. The premise as I have been trying to illustrate, (and seemingly others here are on the same page as me), is the concept of a god making us as his special creation, but then ignoring us for so long, is absurd.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

2nd February 2018, 02:08 PM	#56
Thor 2 Illuminator Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 4,563	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Why, antitheism, of course. Hey right on! I'd like to get into that ideology. Is there a book of scripture that I can get hold of somewhere?
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

2nd February 2018, 02:26 PM	#57
Thor 2 Illuminator Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 4,563	Originally Posted by Senex I ask people if they believe in evolution. Really believe in evolution. If they say no they are not worth my time. If they say yes I ask when did god decide to make us special. I'm not as popular as I could be. One of my favourite prods for the faithful also Senex. I would argue, (putting myself in the shoes of the theist), that God did some tweaking with the evolutionary development, so that man came to resemble himself. When the likeness was identical he picked one man, and one woman (who resembled his female side), and handed out souls. I think this is an elegant explanation and wouldn't be surprised if some theists adopted it. I can just just imagine Lane Craig picking it up and running with it. Just remember it came from me first.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

2nd February 2018, 04:53 PM	#58
Humots Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 376	Originally Posted by Thor 2 One of my favourite prods for the faithful also Senex. I would argue, (putting myself in the shoes of the theist), that God did some tweaking with the evolutionary development, so that man came to resemble himself. When the likeness was identical he picked one man, and one woman (who resembled his female side), and handed out souls. I think this is an elegant explanation and wouldn't be surprised if some theists adopted it. I can just just imagine Lane Craig picking it up and running with it. Just remember it came from me first. It's not original with you. The science writer Martin Gardner wrote a story, "The Horrible Horns", in which he discusses this idea and points out a problem. This would mean that at some time in human history there was a society in which soulless adults raised children with souls. Don't most people think that having a soul means more than just a pass to an afterlife? That having a soul is the fundamental difference between a human and being a beast? In the story, an artist paints a picture showing "Adam" and "Eve" as the first children with souls, being nursed by a mother with eyes that were "cold, bestial, uncomprehending," "two windows behind which no human soul was sitting."
Humots Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 376

2nd February 2018, 05:05 PM	#59
Humots Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 376	Sorry, double post.
Humots Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 376	Last edited by Humots; 2nd February 2018 at 05:06 PM. Reason: Double post.

2nd February 2018, 05:44 PM	#60
Thor 2 Illuminator Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 4,563	Originally Posted by Humots It's not original with you. The science writer Martin Gardner wrote a story, "The Horrible Horns", in which he discusses this idea and points out a problem. This would mean that at some time in human history there was a society in which soulless adults raised children with souls. Don't most people think that having a soul means more than just a pass to an afterlife? That having a soul is the fundamental difference between a human and being a beast? In the story, an artist paints a picture showing "Adam" and "Eve" as the first children with souls, being nursed by a mother with eyes that were "cold, bestial, uncomprehending," "two windows behind which no human soul was sitting." Well I did have it as an original thought that popped into my head without prompting. Could not get any info about "The Horrible Horns" from your link but non the less I take your word for it. Maybe this Martin Gardner pinched the idea from me.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

2nd February 2018, 06:43 PM	#61
Humots Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 376	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Well I did have it as an original thought that popped into my head without prompting. Could not get any info about "The Horrible Horns" from your link but non the less I take your word for it. Maybe this Martin Gardner pinched the idea from me. Not likely. The story was published in 1951. I was two years old then. How about you? Martin Gardner wrote the Mathematical Games article in Scientific American for many years. He was an active skeptic, writing books such as "Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science" and "Science Good Bad and Bogus." He was a friend of James Randi and one of the founders of CSI.
Humots Critical Thinker Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 376

3rd February 2018, 03:34 PM	#62
Thor 2 Illuminator Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 4,563	Originally Posted by Humots Not likely. The story was published in 1951. I was two years old then. How about you? Martin Gardner wrote the Mathematical Games article in Scientific American for many years. He was an active skeptic, writing books such as "Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science" and "Science Good Bad and Bogus." He was a friend of James Randi and one of the founders of CSI. I was joking about Martin stealing the idea from me. I use the term "original thought" in a loose way, meaning I did not borrow it from someone else. Many others, I feel sure, have had this same idea, and some before Martin also. Interesting that our present day prominent atheists don't play on this however.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

3rd February 2018, 03:46 PM	#63
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 20,414	Originally Posted by Thor 2 I was joking about Martin stealing the idea from me. I use the term "original thought" in a loose way, meaning I did not borrow it from someone else. Many others, I feel sure, have had this same idea, and some before Martin also. Interesting that our present day prominent atheists don't play on this however. I think this happens all the time. I know I have come up with new ideas which turned out to be very very old ideas. It's not that your thought had to originate from earlier writings, just that many people come to the same conclusions. Some just have the wherewithall to have lived before us.
	__________________ “ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume

3rd February 2018, 04:24 PM	#64
ynot Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 8,170	Originally Posted by acbytesla I think this happens all the time. I know I have come up with new ideas which turned out to be very very old ideas. It's not that your thought had to originate from earlier writings, just that many people come to the same conclusions. Some just have the wherewithall to have lived before us. "Great minds think alike, fools never differ"
ynot Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 8,170	__________________ Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated.

3rd February 2018, 07:51 PM	#65
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 20,414	Originally Posted by ynot "Great minds think alike, fools never differ" Something like that.
	__________________ “ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume

4th February 2018, 08:14 AM	#66
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 23,160	Originally Posted by Thor 2 I have no idea what you may think is the premise of the OP. The premise as I have been trying to illustrate, (and seemingly others here are on the same page as me), is the concept of a god making us as his special creation, but then ignoring us for so long, is absurd. I'm trying to understand what connection you believe there is between that and a news story about a new hypothesis about when humans migrated out of Africa. You're talking about religion, but linked to a story about science.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

4th February 2018, 12:27 PM	#67
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 60,381	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Hey right on! I'd like to get into that ideology. Is there a book of scripture that I can get hold of somewhere? Does all ideology have to have a book of scripture in order to be an ideology?

4th February 2018, 12:48 PM	#68
abaddon Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 18,289	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Does all ideology have to have a book of scripture in order to be an ideology? No, but that is not at issue in this discussion because the religion in question does have a book. A book which the "faithful" mostly ignore.
	__________________ Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes...

4th February 2018, 02:03 PM	#69
Thor 2 Illuminator Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 4,563	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim I'm trying to understand what connection you believe there is between that and a news story about a new hypothesis about when humans migrated out of Africa. You're talking about religion, but linked to a story about science. I'm beginning to see where the problem is here ..... you didn't read the OP! At the risk of labouring the point, I was drawing attention to the fact, that man has been in God's special place, for a lot longer than previously thought. This we have now learned by the application of modern science.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

5th February 2018, 03:16 AM	#70
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 23,160	Originally Posted by Thor 2 I'm beginning to see where the problem is here ..... you didn't read the OP! At the risk of labouring the point, I was drawing attention to the fact, that man has been in God's special place, for a lot longer than previously thought. This we have now learned by the application of modern science. What do you mean by "God's special place"?
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

5th February 2018, 12:26 PM	#71
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 60,381	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim What do you mean by "God's special place"? Israel. Even I can see that.

5th February 2018, 12:52 PM	#72
Thor 2 Illuminator Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 4,563	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Israel. Even I can see that. Thank you arth. I was somewhat surprised by the question also.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

6th February 2018, 02:51 AM	#73
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 23,160	And the argument of the thread is that God helped people in Africa, but started ignoring them once they'd reached Israel, so that they reached Israel earlier than previously thought means that he's been ignoring them for longer?
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

6th February 2018, 01:28 PM	#74
Thor 2 Illuminator Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 4,563	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim And the argument of the thread is that God helped people in Africa, but started ignoring them once they'd reached Israel, so that they reached Israel earlier than previously thought means that he's been ignoring them for longer? Yes well we know about people like you, who have this knack of reading something and putting a different interpretation on the words, so it means something at odds with what most others, (and indeed the author), is trying to say.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

6th February 2018, 11:44 PM	#75
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Location, Location Posts: 60,381	It helps to actually read the article.