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#41 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 18,289
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Bible god ignored everyone. He/she/it/housecat was an equal opportunity butcher.
Because god is not science, or scientific or any such thing. God has no place in science. One of those things is not like the other. Did sesame street teach you nothing? |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#42 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,160
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#43 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,417
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We are immortals, the children simply return to the spirit world for a time, after which they get another chance at a better life. The spirit world say that if there is injustice in a death then the person will be compensated in the next life.
It is arguable that it does not matter when children die. The Bhagavad Gita has a discourse in which one the eve of a great battle Krishna points out that although it seems terrible that a civil war would pit brother against brother, they are all immortals, so in the end it does not matter who dies in war. Sorry if this is off topic, but you did ask. As for the restriction of keeping it to Abrahamic beliefs I don't see the point because mankind has believed in many Gods. The bible may have no explanation for an apparently uncaring God but other religions do. The Africans had their witch doctors. |
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God. Sri Ramakrishna Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six. Leo Tolstoy |
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#44 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 10,729
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And if you and the Bhagavad Gita are wrong, which you almost certainly are given that these beliefs are unevidenced and make no sense? Do you see that you are excusing atrocities on the flimsiest of pretexts?
If this life is all there is then it certainly does matter when children die, and that brothers are killing each other. Surely it is better to behave as if that was the case, in which case any afterlife is a nice bonus, than to behave as if totally irrational beliefs are certainties and waste the only life there is. |
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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#45 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: St. Louis, Mo.
Posts: 12,392
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This notion, popular in Hinduism, that reincarnation somehow addresses inequities, leads to some really horrible situations.
Like the rigidly divided caste system and the fact that the poor may be ignored. Indeed (and I’ve heard this expressed by western folks as well...) that trying to help the poor, sick, and downtrodden is not only futile, it’s actually wrong. The wretches are paying for their past misdeeds, you see... Let ‘em suffer, they brought it on themselves. Since MY butt is in the butter, I must have been good in a previous life. |
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#46 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,417
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God. Sri Ramakrishna Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six. Leo Tolstoy |
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#47 |
Schrödinger's cat
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 10,729
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"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett |
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#48 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 19,950
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The discussion seems a strawman. There needs to be more highlighting of assumptions. Are omniscience and omnipotence necessary to the definition of God? Does God have to have Islamic/Christian/Judaic trappings with regard to Israel, etc.? Is the Bible (what flavor) or any given portion thereof necessary to the concept of God?
Is this just a God call-out thread? Everybody pile on? |
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"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
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#49 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 20,414
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This is a skeptic's forum. God like all imaginary beings always fails to pass the critical thinking test.
I've been trying to reconcile religion with intellect for the last 3 decades and fail miserably. If someone can show me with credible evidence that God is more than an idea created in one's mind, I'm open to it. But everyone that tries fails just like I did. I've come to the brutal conclusion that despite the community and comfort religion provides for it believers it is and has always been a toxic and destructive superstition for mankind as a whole. |
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“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume |
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#50 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 60,381
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#51 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 20,414
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“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume |
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#52 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 18,289
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Wrong. If this life is all there is then all the more reason to maximise the one and only life that each of us has.
The atheist simply realises that this is a "one-shot". Get it wrong and there are no second chances. Theists, generally, believe that death-bed confession forgives any "sin". If anything, theism is a recipe for disaster. Regardless of whatever heinous sins one may have committed over the course of a life, one may simply ask forgiveness on the death bed and all is well. Reincarnation is even worse (although not even vaguely christian) That is a sentence even worse than death. Have a life and keep on repeating it in various forms until you get it right. Who defines that? |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#53 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 583
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And for an atheist, like me, the nothingness of death erases all pride in a life well lived or guilt over a selfish one. In the end it won’t matter to me how I lived my life.
In either case other biological and cultural factors have more influence on day to day living than the anticipated end does. |
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#54 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 20,414
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Yes, they do. But we must live the life we are presented with. That is our fate. I remember a scene from the movie Lion in Winter where three men were waiting possible execution in the Tower of London one of them said 'he was not going to beg for his life, and on of the other two said 'You fool, what does it matter how a man falls down'? The first said 'when the fall that is all that it is left, it matters'.
I have sky dived a few times which is amazing. I distinctly remember the moment before I jumped for the first time. The terror I felt was real as was the spectacular elation I felt after I left the safety of the airplane. Also, the disappointment and relief when the parachute opened. Nothing in my life before or since can compare to those moments when I was freefalling. That said, I believe the ultimate test for me would be how I would react if my chute didn't open. Would I be seized by fear in terror? (Most likely) Or could I enjoy the rest of my fall? (Doubtful, but I would hope I could) |
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“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume |
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#55 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,563
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I have no idea what you may think is the premise of the OP. The premise as I have been trying to illustrate, (and seemingly others here are on the same page as me), is the concept of a god making us as his special creation, but then ignoring us for so long, is absurd. |
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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#56 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,563
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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#57 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,563
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One of my favourite prods for the faithful also Senex. I would argue, (putting myself in the shoes of the theist), that God did some tweaking with the evolutionary development, so that man came to resemble himself. When the likeness was identical he picked one man, and one woman (who resembled his female side), and handed out souls. I think this is an elegant explanation and wouldn't be surprised if some theists adopted it. I can just just imagine Lane Craig picking it up and running with it. Just remember it came from me first. |
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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#58 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 376
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It's not original with you.
The science writer Martin Gardner wrote a story, "The Horrible Horns", in which he discusses this idea and points out a problem. This would mean that at some time in human history there was a society in which soulless adults raised children with souls. Don't most people think that having a soul means more than just a pass to an afterlife? That having a soul is the fundamental difference between a human and being a beast? In the story, an artist paints a picture showing "Adam" and "Eve" as the first children with souls, being nursed by a mother with eyes that were "cold, bestial, uncomprehending," "two windows behind which no human soul was sitting." |
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#59 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 376
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Sorry, double post.
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#60 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,563
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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#61 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 376
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Not likely. The story was published in 1951.
I was two years old then. How about you? Martin Gardner wrote the Mathematical Games article in Scientific American for many years. He was an active skeptic, writing books such as "Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science" and "Science Good Bad and Bogus." He was a friend of James Randi and one of the founders of CSI. |
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#62 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,563
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I was joking about Martin stealing the idea from me. I use the term "original thought" in a loose way, meaning I did not borrow it from someone else. Many others, I feel sure, have had this same idea, and some before Martin also. Interesting that our present day prominent atheists don't play on this however. |
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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#63 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 20,414
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I think this happens all the time. I know I have come up with new ideas which turned out to be very very old ideas. It's not that your thought had to originate from earlier writings, just that many people come to the same conclusions. Some just have the wherewithall to have lived before us.
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“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume |
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#64 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,170
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Paranormal beliefs are knowledge placebos. Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. |
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#65 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 20,414
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“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume |
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#66 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,160
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#67 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 60,381
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#68 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 18,289
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#69 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,563
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I'm beginning to see where the problem is here ..... you didn't read the OP! At the risk of labouring the point, I was drawing attention to the fact, that man has been in God's special place, for a lot longer than previously thought. This we have now learned by the application of modern science. |
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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#70 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,160
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#71 |
Observer of Phenomena
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#72 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,563
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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#73 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,160
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And the argument of the thread is that God helped people in Africa, but started ignoring them once they'd reached Israel, so that they reached Israel earlier than previously thought means that he's been ignoring them for longer?
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#74 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,563
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Thinking is a faith hazard. |
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#75 |
Observer of Phenomena
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 60,381
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It helps to actually read the article.
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#76 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,160
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I'm genuinely trying to understand what you're talking about.
As far as I can tell, your argument is that the evidence that humans were in "God's special place" earlier than previously thought means that God was "uncaring" towards them for longer than previously thought. That implies that he was uncaring towards them while they were in his "special place". That further implies that either he wasn't uncaring towards humans before they were in that special place - which means that he was caring towards them while they were still in Africa - or that they didn't exist before they were in his "special place" - which is contradicted by the article linked in the OP. If you can explain where I'm going wrong, and what it is that you actually mean, I'd greatly appreciate it. |
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#77 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 23,160
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#78 |
Observer of Phenomena
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#79 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 4,563
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Yes sure.
![]() Sometime in your life you may have come upon a book that mentions a God of Abraham. The Bible is one such book, (you've heard of it?), and in it's pages this god is doing all kinds of stuff and talking to people. This all happens in one area of the World where Israel is located. That's why I refer to this location as "God's special place." We may assume from this that this god was not interested in humanoid beings in other parts of the World. The faithful may argue it was in this location that man was first fitted out with souls. Given the huge difference in the Biblical account of the history of soul equiped, (God's image type), people and the scientific account of the history of man in the area, we must conclude that the god in question was not all that interested for a long time. |
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#80 |
Observer of Phenomena
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