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Old 8th February 2018, 01:23 AM   #41
Hlafordlaes
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
I sure hope they all go down as first degree, premeditated murder. All of 'em. They were all complicit and followed illegal orders. **** 'em gently with a chainsaw.
Too soft. Legs and arms chopped off at the knee/elbow, tongue cut out, vocal cords removed, ears popped, blinded in both peepers. Castrated. Pump 'em up with LSD 24/7, and juice 'em with a cattle prod in the kidneys at random intervals day or night. Them there's a real good prison, not some feel good Bubba recreation cage.

/slight exaggeration mode
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:55 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Christ, they knew who he was and where he lived. Nab him later. Throw the book at him. Jail him for years (which would be excessive, but still). Just don't murder the guy. No prosecution? Piss off Tennessee. You have long been a laughing stock. Still well deserved.
In Tennessee, officers and elected officails seem to have carte blanche to kill motorcyclists

On October 22, 1996, after receiving an "advisory letter" from the DMV two years before warning that his license was about to be revoked due to excessive "points, Tennessee State Senator Carl Koella struck and killed 52 year old Terry Barnard, retired General Motors engineer and motorcyclist. After stopping to see that Barnard was dead, he is said to have admitted his guilt to others that had stopped, then drove home. The case was handled in the typically "good old white boy" system that has sadly given the South its redneck stigma. Although indicted by a grand jury for felony hit and run, the Senator was slapped on the hand and sentenced to 30 days of community service after pleading no contest to misdemeanor hit and run. On January 14, 1998, still serving Senator Koella died of heart trouble, having served 26 years in office. Months after his death, his insurance company settled a wrongful death lawsuit for $1.5 million.

On April 7, 1999, to honor the former Senator, Tennessee legislature passed and Governor Don Sundquist signed Senate Bill 923, sponsored by Koella's chosen successor. This bill did not rename a state building, or a state park, or another state project to honor his 26 years of service. No, the state of Tennessee, in what many outside the state called completely callous, designated "that segment of Interstate Highway 140 beginning at its intersection with Interstate 40 in Knox County to its terminus at U.S. Highway 321 in Blount County is hereby designated as the "Senator Carl O. Koella, Jr.. Memorial Highway" as a lasting tribute to this exemplary public servant".


"A Rockford police officer has been charged with a vehicular homicide in the death of a Knoxville [police officer] killed in a motorcycle crash on March 10, 2001. The charge against Sgt. James Ray 'J.R.' Johnson, 33, of Maryville, came in an indictment returned Aug. 28 by a Blount County Grand Jury sitting in special session. Laton was employed as a Corrections Officer at the Knox County Regional Juvenile Detention Center in Knoxville. Laton was divorced, but he had full custody of his three minor children. Soon after being notified of the indictment and the warrant for his arrest, Johnson surrendered to authorities at the Blount County Justice Center. Escorted by fellow Rockford police officer Bill Allen, Johnson entered the Justice Center through the sally port where people in custody are turned over to corrections officers. The accident report made at the scene by Tennessee Highway Patrol Officer Ronald McDonald, stated that Laton lost control of his 1997 Honda CR900 as he tried to pass Johnson's cruiser, hit the guardrail and skidded into Johnson's patrol car. McDonald said that two witnesses came forward two days after the accident and said Johnson swerxred his cruiser into tile path of the motorcycle, sending it careening into tile guardrail. Thc witnesses are reportedly Tennessee state highway troopers. Since the accident, Johnson's friends claim he has been labeled as a 'motorcyclist hater,' although Johnson owns a motorcycle and has ridden for over a decade. In addition to the criminal charges, he is named as a defendant in a $3 million lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court by Laton's ex-wife on behalf of her three minor children, ages 7, 8 and 9. Named in the same lawsuit are Rockford Police Chief Robert Simerly, City of Rockford, Blount County Sheriff James L. Berrong and Blount County. Johnson was released after posting a $25,000 surety bond. He awaits a 9 a.m., Sept. 10 appearance in Blount County Circuit Court."
—Teresa Helton-Garrett, Knoxville Journal, "Rockford police officer charged with vehicular homicide," September 6, 2001 [Note: the Rockford Police Department was terminated as a result of this homicide]


Johnson was later acquitted.
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Old 8th February 2018, 04:06 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Too soft. Legs and arms chopped off at the knee/elbow, tongue cut out, vocal cords removed, ears popped, blinded in both peepers. Castrated. Pump 'em up with LSD 24/7, and juice 'em with a cattle prod in the kidneys at random intervals day or night. Them there's a real good prison, not some feel good Bubba recreation cage.

Someone needs to tell Hlfordlaes that FuelAir has guessed his password!
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Old 8th February 2018, 04:47 AM   #44
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In the thread on daily mass shootings, I commented that some Americans do want to shoot another person;

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post12168512

which was doubted. This shows there really are wannabe killers, particularly in the police.
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Old 8th February 2018, 05:47 AM   #45
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I'm glad to see all the support for capital punishment in this thread
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Old 8th February 2018, 06:18 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Someone needs to tell Hlfordlaes that FuelAir has guessed his password!
Apparently this forum has a law of conservation of violent revenge fantasy.
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Old 8th February 2018, 06:30 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
I'm glad to see all the support for capital punishment in this thread
I don't support capital punishment, but the OP presents as clear a case of premeditated murder as I can think of. The sheriff and the officer who fired should stand trial for murder 1.
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Old 8th February 2018, 06:48 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The article in the OP said the DA decided not to prosecute, even:


ETA: but yeah, I 100% agree with you.
Exactly this is model american policing here. This should be taught to all young officers as how to respond to any questioning of their authority.
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Old 8th February 2018, 06:50 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
I have met the Sherriff involved here, and work with his deputies regularly.
He has a good reputation and runs a very well thought of department.
Exactly this is a model of how police chances should be run. Better a few dead people who don't respect police authority than any body damage to police vehicals
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:01 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The article in the OP said the DA decided not to prosecute, even:
ETA: but yeah, I 100% agree with you.
Yeah, I do realize that, but still... I'm pretty tired of reading stories like this.



Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The article makes it sound like a laff riot, complete with banjo-playing. The video makes it clear that this was dead-serious stuff.
Yeah, the video makes it clear that it was given the appearance of dead-serious stuff, but the attitude and words of the sheriff makes it clear that the sheriff himself treated it like a laff riot. And I guess the rest of them laff rioted themselves off to a good ole time murdering a guy for no reason other than I can only surmise that it got their rocks off.


Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
I have met the Sherriff involved here, and work with his deputies regularly.
He has a good reputation and runs a very well thought of department.
Sure. And every Catholic pedo-priest is simply a serving man of God who shouldn't be prosecuted because reasons.


Quote:
I should note that this is the same rural TN county where a local judge recently made national headlines for offering reduced sentences to prisoners who agree to certain birth control measures
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...s+white+county

ETA: ISF Linke to previous discussion on events in this county.
So what? Is the sheriff the judge in that county? Last time I read, the topic was the behavior and attitudes of the sheriff and his clan and not a county judge.



Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Just because an officer is responding to a low-level (shoplifting or similar)
criminal offense doesn't mean that call is the totality of who they'll be dealing with - from my area...that's no excuse for the behavior described in this instance but the idea that the only criminal activity you find when you answer some low level criminal complaint is the call that brought you there isn't well informed.
You're wanting to use serial killers as examples of times when the police under-reacted to petty crimes or tried to make good decisions based on incomplete information, missing the stuff that literally no one else knew about? I never did an in-depth study of serial killers, but from the half dozen off the top of my head, even from other countries outside the US, they all had run-ins with the law over petty crap.

I guess it's just me, but I can't see the reason for posting that at this time.



Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
I don't support capital punishment, but the OP presents as clear a case of premeditated murder as I can think of. The sheriff and the officer who fired should stand trial for murder 1.
And to be clear, I also do not support the death penalty and I get heartily sick of reading revenge fantasy stories here (well, everywhere). I am also very much in favor of massively reducing sentences nearly across the board to be more in line with how successful countries deal with prisoners and ex-cons.

The phrase I used was a slight alteration from one spoken in the movie Heathers simply to express my frustration at **** like this that continues to happen. It's a tragedy on multiple levels.
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:17 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Sure. And every Catholic pedo-priest is simply a serving man of God who shouldn't be prosecuted because reasons.
I wasn't making any particular judgment, and won't because this is a local deal, but I did want to add that context. He isn't known as a swashbuckler or bumpkin type sheriff. That obviously is subject to change, but historically that has not been his reputation.

Quote:
So what? Is the sheriff the judge in that county? Last time I read, the topic was the behavior and attitudes of the sheriff and his clan and not a county judge.
That wasn't an argument, I just thought I'd mention it because it is a tangentially-related issue, a local one in my case, and also made national news and was discussed here on ISF. This is a middle-of-nowhere county twice making national headlines for, let' say "non-typical" events related to criminal justice. I apologize if pointing that out caused some problem for you.
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:38 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
I sure hope they all go down as first degree, premeditated murder. All of 'em. They were all complicit and followed illegal orders. **** 'em gently with a chainsaw.
Freaking seriously. I don't get how there is any sober argument against this. Shoot the tires out, anything else but premeditated execution of an unarmed man, suspended license or not.
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:45 AM   #53
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If you are black police will just shoot you for existing. That or reenact that scene from American history x.

Then proceed to plant a gun on the body and claim self defence.
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:47 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Not anymore. At least, I hope not.
There doesn't seem to be much official condemnation of this, so it seems like everyone is happy with how the police handled this.
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:49 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Just because an officer is responding to a low-level (shoplifting or similar)
criminal offense doesn't mean that call is the totality of who they'll be dealing with - from my area:
Clearly you support shooting suspects to keep the detailing bills lower for the police department. Otherwise this would just be a total non sequitur.

Or is this a general stance for the summary execution of shoplifters?
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:52 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Christ, they knew who he was and where he lived. Nab him later. Throw the book at him. Jail him for years (which would be excessive, but still). Just don't murder the guy. No prosecution? Piss off Tennessee. You have long been a laughing stock. Still well deserved.
Better a thousand dead junkies than one dinged up cop car! That is why we need to start looking at the so called opiate epidemic as a good thing, it is killing off the dregs of society by definition.
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:54 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
In Tennessee, officers and elected officails seem to have carte blanche to kill motorcyclists
Its ok I hear they were shoplifters.
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:59 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
I wasn't making any particular judgment, and won't because this is a local deal, but I did want to add that context. He isn't known as a swashbuckler or bumpkin type sheriff. That obviously is subject to change, but historically that has not been his reputation.

That wasn't an argument, I just thought I'd mention it because it is a tangentially-related issue, a local one in my case, and also made national news and was discussed here on ISF. This is a middle-of-nowhere county twice making national headlines for, let' say "non-typical" events related to criminal justice. I apologize if pointing that out caused some problem for you.
No, no, you're right, I over-reacted and you have my apologies. Thank you for your further clarification.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:09 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Better a thousand dead junkies than one dinged up cop car! That is why we need to start looking at the so called opiate epidemic as a good thing, it is killing off the dregs of society by definition.
Exactly! We need to ban Narcan too, but in the meantime, the cops can do their civic duty by shooting all the poor skin popping and mainlining slobs who are giving America a bad name. Have a beautiful neighborhood once again where the kids can play kick-the-can in the park in smug, self-righteous bliss! After the bloated junky corpses have all been incinerated, I mean.

Wait. What am I saying? The corpses should remain where they fell to serve as proper Moral Lessons of the dangers of being a worthless fiending junkie.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:16 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Exactly! We need to ban Narcan too, but in the meantime, the cops can do their civic duty by shooting all the poor skin popping and mainlining slobs who are giving America a bad name. Have a beautiful neighborhood once again where the kids can play kick-the-can in the park in smug, self-righteous bliss! After the bloated junky corpses have all been incinerated, I mean.

Wait. What am I saying? The corpses should remain where they fell to serve as proper Moral Lessons of the dangers of being a worthless fiending junkie.

If one has an underclass as a warning to the working class not to do anything foolish like insist on decent conditions or a reasonable boss, one has to keep some of them alive or replace them or there's no threat to everyone else to keep working.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:53 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
I'm glad to see all the support for capital punishment in this thread
And summary execution no less. Putting the J in truth, justice and the American way!
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:58 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If one has an underclass as a warning to the working class not to do anything foolish like insist on decent conditions or a reasonable boss, one has to keep some of them alive or replace them or there's no threat to everyone else to keep working.
Ah, good point! You're British I take it? Well, no matter. I do think that the British should be admired for that; they seem to have mastered that whole upper-class-snobbery-being-poor-is-your-own-bloody-fault mentality to a faultless — even admirable — degree.

We Americans have a proud tradition to carry on in our own little part of the world!

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Old 8th February 2018, 11:01 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Actually you could never campaign and win on a platform of spontaneously murdering criminals. It did happen in the Philippines but it wouldn't work here.

But you could be elected if the voters knew that this is your style of law enforcement. You just can't announce it.
Agreed. Usually, when cops kill people, there's a cover story that of course they don't like to do it, and they wish they didn't have to do it, but the perp left him no choice

And, more often than not, that's true. I'm confident that very few cops ever want to draw their weapons, and certainly they don't want to kill people. This cop, though, just admitted that he liked to do it. He was happy that the dead guy gave him an excuse. The late Mr. Dial "made his day."


But here's where there's a difference between this cop and the fictional Dirty Harry. Dirty Harry dared the criminal to do something that would put Harry's life in danger, in which case Harry would have had no choice but to kill him. Moreover, Harry was so confident in the outcome of that competition that he showed restraint, and talked his way out of the problem by letting the perp know that Harry was in charge here. We admire that kind of bravado.

The sheriff in this case simply made it clear that he was looking for an excuse to kill someone, and loved it when one came along, and actual fear for his life wasn't really part of the picture. He just wanted enough justification that he could claim it was necessary. Admitting that sort of thing shouldn't play well at the polls. I suppose we'll see whether or not it does.
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Old 8th February 2018, 11:06 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Ah, good point! You're British I take it? Well, no matter. I do think that the British should be admired for that; they seem to have mastered that whole upper-class-snobbery-being-poor-is-your-own-bloody-fault mentality to a faultless — even admirable — degree.
Oh, you think we're good at that now, you just wait until the most incompetent cabinet ever has finished doing whatever the **** they're doing about leaving Europe. Then you'll see class division on a whole new scale.


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Old 8th February 2018, 11:13 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Agreed. Usually, when cops kill people, there's a cover story that of course they don't like to do it, and they wish they didn't have to do it, but the perp left him no choice

And, more often than not, that's true. I'm confident that very few cops ever want to draw their weapons, and certainly they don't want to kill people. This cop, though, just admitted that he liked to do it. He was happy that the dead guy gave him an excuse. The late Mr. Dial "made his day."
Killing maybe but cops do seem to relish putting people in the hospital. See how much fun sending dogs on suicidal teens. Then there was how funny cutting off water and watching someone die of dehydration was in milwaukee.

http://watchdogsarasota.heraldtribun...e-get-ur-bite/
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Old 8th February 2018, 11:19 AM   #66
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Old 8th February 2018, 12:11 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Freaking seriously. I don't get how there is any sober argument against this. Shoot the tires out, anything else but premeditated execution of an unarmed man, suspended license or not.
He rammed the police car in front of him several times and drove two of the cruisers right off the road. Despite claims to the contrary, the cops tried several times to bump the rear fender to spin the truck out, but the trailer apparently prevented that tactic from working. Even at the end, he wasn't giving up--he had gotten the truck moving again and was set to resume his reckless endangerment.

The shooting was justified.
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Old 8th February 2018, 12:27 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
He rammed the police car in front of him several times and drove two of the cruisers right off the road. Despite claims to the contrary, the cops tried several times to bump the rear fender to spin the truck out, but the trailer apparently prevented that tactic from working. Even at the end, he wasn't giving up--he had gotten the truck moving again and was set to resume his reckless endangerment.

The shooting was justified.
There is no evidence that anyone would have been endangered but for the actions of the police.

I don't know why I'm surprised every time there are people ready to line up to excuse police officers who commit murder.
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Old 8th February 2018, 12:38 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
He rammed the police car in front of him several times and drove two of the cruisers right off the road. Despite claims to the contrary, the cops tried several times to bump the rear fender to spin the truck out, but the trailer apparently prevented that tactic from working. Even at the end, he wasn't giving up--he had gotten the truck moving again and was set to resume his reckless endangerment.

The shooting was justified.
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Old 8th February 2018, 01:46 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
He rammed the police car in front of him several times and drove two of the cruisers right off the road. Despite claims to the contrary, the cops tried several times to bump the rear fender to spin the truck out, but the trailer apparently prevented that tactic from working. Even at the end, he wasn't giving up--he had gotten the truck moving again and was set to resume his reckless endangerment.

The shooting was justified.
“I love this ****. God, I tell you what, I thrive on it.”

Totally normal thing for a cop to say after a justified shooting.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:05 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
He rammed the police car in front of him several times and drove two of the cruisers right off the road. Despite claims to the contrary, the cops tried several times to bump the rear fender to spin the truck out, but the trailer apparently prevented that tactic from working. Even at the end, he wasn't giving up--he had gotten the truck moving again and was set to resume his reckless endangerment.

The shooting was justified.
I would agree that the cops may have followed policy in chasing the guy. He did indeed put many lives in danger and the shot seems justified in that sense. Those cops were pretty stupid to risk their lives like they did slamming the guy though.

However, this didn't need to escalate. I'll just say that I believe policies like these need to be changed. I doubt the cops thought the guy would go to such extremes to escape, so maybe it had to be decided somewhere along the line, but they could have backed off and done this another way.

The guy was a threat to other people because he was being chased. Yes, he was in the wrong. Both sides were wrong (driver and the procedure). These policies need to be re-examined.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:16 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
He rammed the police car in front of him several times and drove two of the cruisers right off the road. Despite claims to the contrary, the cops tried several times to bump the rear fender to spin the truck out, but the trailer apparently prevented that tactic from working. Even at the end, he wasn't giving up--he had gotten the truck moving again and was set to resume his reckless endangerment.

The shooting was justified.
The pursuing cops said they were ramming him. Sheriff Sadist said 'no, I don't want the cars damaged, shoot him'. We rarely get such a candid motivation caught on tape. 'I thrive on this' is just icing on the sociopathic cake.

So assuming he didn't mean that last bit , what is the value of human life versus auto repair? Just plus or minus.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:41 PM   #73
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Back when America was great those cops would have shot out his tires and put a bullet in the radiator.

But then crystal methamphetamine came to the heartland. The country became much less great and we ended up with insane characters like the Sheriff and this dead criminal. It's like a scene from some movie except that it is real life. Insane criminals being chased by insane police. Yeah, they murder each other.
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Old 8th February 2018, 02:54 PM   #74
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Surely that video, along with videos from other cars in it, will be used as a training aid to show how not to box a vehicle in. They seemed like they were encouraging him to keep trying by leaving gaps between their cars for him to get through. And why was there only one car in front go him. Many cars had an opportunity get out in front and slow this whole thing down.

Instead they tried to pit maneuver his trailer as if it was his truck. Do cops not know anything about trailer dynamics? The trailer sway is pretty easy to control with tow vehicle acceleration or trailer braking, unless the trailer is accelerating. They should have just rammed the trailer square with their cop cars and it would have jack knifed the whole thing. Also would have caused less damage to their precious vehicles. Nudging it about just gave him reason to hit the gas, not slow down.

And to top it all, the asshat Sheriff who was trying to save a few cop car quarter panels from damage is now costing his tax payers millions. Sweet Jesus, its an incompetence sandwich.
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:48 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Clearly you support shooting suspects to keep the detailing bills lower for the police department. Otherwise this would just be a total non sequitur.

Or is this a general stance for the summary execution of shoplifters?
Please remove your tongue from my mouth.

I realize that certain parties at ISF see any response about police misconduct that doesn't involve lynching as evidence of whole-hearted endorsement of the outrage du jour, so lets just leave this with my observation that clearly you support serial killers that have the mildly eccentric hobby of raping and murdering women and filming it for their later amusement.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:05 PM   #76
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Some more information from this article:

Quote:
The slow speed chase started in DeKalb County before moving into neighboring White County.

Dekalb deputies backed off at the county line, and White County took over.
This potentially answers one question that has come up. Given that the initial reason for the cops attempting to pull him over was driving while suspended, it would seem that they knew who he was (indeed probably had plenty of experience with him). They could just let him go and arrest him later at home. But by crossing into the other county, he could have become an unknown person to the cops that were chasing him.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:05 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Please remove your tongue from my mouth.
Ugh, TMI dude.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:31 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
He rammed the police car in front of him several times and drove two of the cruisers right off the road. Despite claims to the contrary, the cops tried several times to bump the rear fender to spin the truck out, but the trailer apparently prevented that tactic from working. Even at the end, he wasn't giving up--he had gotten the truck moving again and was set to resume his reckless endangerment.

The shooting was justified.
Perhaps. I'll leave that judgement to someone else.

He was not justified in enjoying it.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:32 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Oh, you think we're good at that now, you just wait until the most incompetent cabinet ever has finished doing whatever the **** they're doing about leaving Europe. Then you'll see class division on a whole new scale.
As a matter of fact, I'm making plans on moving to the UK within the next few years, so I hope to see it first-hand. In a way.




Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
He rammed the police car in front of him several times and drove two of the cruisers right off the road. Despite claims to the contrary, the cops tried several times to bump the rear fender to spin the truck out, but the trailer apparently prevented that tactic from working. Even at the end, he wasn't giving up--he had gotten the truck moving again and was set to resume his reckless endangerment.

The shooting was justified.
Not unless an officer's life was in IMMEDIATE and IMMANENT danger. Which it wasn't. Plus, the sheriff's commands were crystal clear as to what he expected them to do. He told them to shoot the poor guy, and that's exactly what they did. Then congratulated themselves afterward.

How in holy blue hell could you possibly think that was justified?




Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Some more information from this article:

This potentially answers one question that has come up. Given that the initial reason for the cops attempting to pull him over was driving while suspended, it would seem that they knew who he was (indeed probably had plenty of experience with him). They could just let him go and arrest him later at home. But by crossing into the other county, he could have become an unknown person to the cops that were chasing him.
"He could have"? He wasn't, though. So, not a legitimate excuse to not take other action to make an apprehension.
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:42 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
The sheriff sounds like a psychopath in a uniform.
Yep, should spend the rest of his life locked away from the rest of humanity.
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