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Old 8th February 2018, 08:47 PM   #81
BStrong
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Perhaps. I'll leave that judgement to someone else.

He was not justified in enjoying it.
One of the worst myths that popular fiction has conditioned people to believe is that if the "bad guy" gets killed there aren't any consequences emotionally or psychologically for the individual doing the life taking.

It is the worst of lies.

If Mr. "I love this ****" in this case really does, there's only a couple of places he should be and one is dead and one is living in a prison uniform.
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Old 9th February 2018, 03:12 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly this is model american policing here. This should be taught to all young officers as how to respond to any questioning of their authority.
Sheriff Cartman reporting for duty, Sah!
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Old 9th February 2018, 03:22 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If one has an underclass as a warning to the working class not to do anything foolish like insist on decent conditions or a reasonable boss, one has to keep some of them alive or replace them or there's no threat to everyone else to keep working.
No need to worry, automation (robotic and AI) and offshore outsourcing will ensure an adequate rate of replacement from (almost) every level of the workforce.
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Old 9th February 2018, 02:02 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
One of the worst myths that popular fiction has conditioned people to believe is that if the "bad guy" gets killed there aren't any consequences emotionally or psychologically for the individual doing the life taking.

It is the worst of lies.

If Mr. "I love this ****" in this case really does, there's only a couple of places he should be and one is dead and one is living in a prison uniform.
I appreciate your willingness to be so blunt about both the emotional toll this type of thing often takes on officers and this particular officer's apparent improper response to this incident.
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Old 10th February 2018, 10:16 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by ProBonoShill View Post
Yep, should spend the rest of his life locked away from the rest of humanity.
Except for the General Population, of course.
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Old 10th February 2018, 10:23 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
In the thread on daily mass shootings, I commented that some Americans do want to shoot another person;

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post12168512

which was doubted. This shows there really are wannabe killers, particularly in the police.
Absolutely there are. Any profession where you carry arms, you're going to attract a certain category of people who want to bloody their gun.
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Old 10th February 2018, 10:47 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
In the thread on daily mass shootings, I commented that some Americans do want to shoot another person;

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post12168512

which was doubted. This shows there really are wannabe killers, particularly in the police.
I've met enough such people, even in relatively liberal enclaves. "Oh, if someone broke into my home while my daughter was there...here's what the cops told me I should do whe-er, if I shoot someone...blah blah blah."

I have no problem with people who hunt for meat, shoot for sport, or even just collect antiques. But some folks act like Simpsons characters.
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Old 10th February 2018, 10:48 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
One of the worst myths that popular fiction has conditioned people to believe is that if the "bad guy" gets killed there aren't any consequences emotionally or psychologically for the individual doing the life taking.

It is the worst of lies.

If Mr. "I love this ****" in this case really does, there's only a couple of places he should be and one is dead and one is living in a prison uniform.
The sheriff was not the shooter; one of the deputies was, and the sheriff was trying to cheer him up:

Quote:
But immediately afterward, Deputy West was clearly upset.

Sheriff Shoupe comforted West by telling him he did exactly as he was ordered.

"You don't have to worry about this. I made the decision. You don't have to worry about it. I took that away from y'all. You don't have to worry about nothing. Everything's cool. You done exactly right," the sheriff said.
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Old 10th February 2018, 11:13 AM   #89
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*shrug* this is exactly the type of police that people said they wanted when they were shooting away at unarmed black folks and aiming sniper rifles at unarmed protestors in places like Ferguson. Not shocked by either the people who still support people here, or the ones who suddenly get outraged when white people are treated the same way - it's just a matter of which moral failing is under discussion.
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Old 10th February 2018, 02:53 PM   #90
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From the afore-quoted article:
"You don't have to worry about this. I made the decision. You don't have to worry about it. I took that away from y'all. You don't have to worry about nothing. Everything's cool. You done exactly right," the sheriff said.
I guess the sheriff doesn't have a problem with lying to his underlings either, which is a mild surprise.

Every one, cop included, is responsible for objecting to or ignoring an unlawful order. Anyone recall Nuremburg for example? That cop is as guilty for premeditated murder as the sheriff as well as everyone who was involved who could have objected or attempted to block such unlawful order.
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Old 10th February 2018, 03:08 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
From the afore-quoted article:
"You don't have to worry about this. I made the decision. You don't have to worry about it. I took that away from y'all. You don't have to worry about nothing. Everything's cool. You done exactly right," the sheriff said.
I guess the sheriff doesn't have a problem with lying to his underlings either, which is a mild surprise.
And on top of murder and bearing false witness he's terrible at speaking English.
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Old 10th February 2018, 03:25 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And on top of murder and bearing false witness he's terrible at speaking English.
Very true. In my book, it's nearly a death-penalty level offense just on its own, but I must resist the urge to petition the federal government to pass such legislation.
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Old 10th February 2018, 03:32 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Very true. In my book, it's nearly a death-penalty level offense just on its own, but I must resist the urge to petition the federal government to pass such legislation.
There's no chance given who would have to sign it after pretending to be able to read it.
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Old 10th February 2018, 03:40 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
There's no chance given who would have to sign it after pretending to be able to read it.
You know, I hadn't thought of that, but now you mention it, all I would need to do is send a spoofed Tweet to the... that guy... pretending to come from someone whose name rhymes with "Lightfart" and it would probably get passed the next day. I mean, once someone read it out loud first.
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Old 10th February 2018, 05:56 PM   #95
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It's also worth noting that the man who did the shooting was a volunteer (possibly completely untrained) "reserve deputy" - people who are usually wealthy donors of money, vehicles, and guns to the police department who want "in" on the action, so they're given a dash blue light and police radio. The actual trained police officer involved in the chase disregarded the "shoot him" order, it appears.

It's also interesting to see the spin the DA, Bryant Dunaway, put on the situation before the footage was released:

http://spartalive.com/officer-involv...orney-general/
Quote:
...the report states officers attempted to box in Dial’s vehicle in an attempt to slow down the vehicle and bring it to a stop. However, Dial then reportedly began to ram into the side and rear of the police vehicles several times.

The report states at least two police vehicles were totaled and disabled during the incident. At one point during the pursuit, Dial’s truck left the roadway and traveled into the grass after a police unit attempted to stop Dial’s vehicle by ramming into the trailer. A Sparta police officer reportedly drove ahead of the pursuit and turned around toward Dial’s oncoming vehicle.

The report stated that Dial drove the truck down an embankment on the right side of Highway 111 and then began to drive back up the hill toward the highway and toward the Sparta police officer’s patrol car. At this point, the officer proceeded to discharge four rounds from his handgun at Dial’s truck as he drove toward the officer. A reserve deputy with White County Sheriff Department then discharged several rounds from his handgun at Dial’s truck.
One more thing of note, possibly coincidental, but possibly not (from 2 days ago):
https://www.tennessean.com/story/new...own/319609002/

Quote:
The Tennessee Bureau of Investigation's top leader is stepping down, government authorities said Thursday.
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Old 10th February 2018, 06:02 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Killing maybe but cops do seem to relish putting people in the hospital. See how much fun sending dogs on suicidal teens. Then there was how funny cutting off water and watching someone die of dehydration was in milwaukee.

http://watchdogsarasota.heraldtribun...e-get-ur-bite/

"He ...
... fell down the stairs."

... tripped going into the elevator."

... slipped getting out of the patrol car in the parking lot."
And the ever-popular ...
... was resisting arrest."
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Old 10th February 2018, 07:28 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The sheriff was not the shooter; one of the deputies was, and the sheriff was trying to cheer him up:
I've been around, and "I love this ****" isn't the type of encouragement that an officer needs to have post-shooting.
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Old 10th February 2018, 11:29 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I've been around, and "I love this ****" isn't the type of encouragement that an officer needs to have post-shooting.
This is where he was trying to cheer him up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_12oAZGleHE
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Old 11th February 2018, 12:02 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The sheriff was not the shooter; one of the deputies was, and the sheriff was trying to cheer him up:
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I've been around, and "I love this ****" isn't the type of encouragement that an officer needs to have post-shooting.
Evidently the sheriff only tried to cheer the guy up to his face. He seems to have put down the badly-affected deputy when talking to a different officer, according to the Daily Mail story that William Parcher linked to earlier in the thread:

Quote:
Talking about the deputy who pulled the trigger, Shoupe said he 'took it hard'.

'If he can't take it he needs to get out. He's in the big league,' he said.
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Old 11th February 2018, 12:19 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Evidently the sheriff only tried to cheer the guy up to his face. He seems to have put down the badly-affected deputy when talking to a different officer, according to the Daily Mail story that William Parcher linked to earlier in the thread:
Even taking our British posters common opinion on the source - Daily Fail - into consideration, if that is what the sheriff said he's a even worse douchebag than I first thought.
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Old 11th February 2018, 12:21 AM   #101
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I've seen a picture of a cop in Australia after he had to shoot someone. Even though it had to be done in this case, you could see the cop was not in a good way.
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Old 11th February 2018, 01:04 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
I've seen a picture of a cop in Australia after he had to shoot someone. Even though it had to be done in this case, you could see the cop was not in a good way.
If the mods view this post as off-topic I apologize in advance.

There is a significant difference between the legally and morally justified taking of life in a military context and a law enforcement context.

Simply, in the military you do your thing, run around and you do your pondering sometime down the line.

In the LE context, you may not face any similar level of threat but are forced to respond to the threat with no lesser consequence and you immediately return home with the expectation that the incident is over and done with and nothing has changed. The popular fiction version of the aftermath of violence, even with the body of research into PTSD and associated issues leads folks to believe that "hey, he was a bad guy, what's the problem?"

There's a huge *********** problem.

Even in very clear cut situations, LE use of force incidents are very close up and personal. The officer sees the threat and the aftermath. The officer through the media is often aware of the grieving family members. The officer, again, even in very clear-cut situations knows how his actions in justifiable self defense negatively effected people wholly uninvolved with the criminal actions of the decedent.

As a soldier, you never know any of that.

I don't know one single officer that I've counseled after using lethal force that shrugged it off and motored on, but I know a bunch of guys who ended up divorced, or who ended up self medicating one way or another to try to cope with the after effects of taking a life - again, even in incidents that were wholly justifiable.
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Last edited by BStrong; 11th February 2018 at 01:12 AM.
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Old 11th February 2018, 01:24 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I don't know one single officer that I've counseled after using lethal force that shrugged it off and motored on, but I know a bunch of guys who ended up divorced, or who ended up self medicating one way or another to try to cope with the after effects of taking a life - again, even in incidents that were wholly justifiable.
Indeed, and the good sheriff doesn't seem to feel the same way. It seems we have a case where the sheriff gave a "by any means necessary" order over the radio remotely, only arriving at the aftermath later in a jolly mood over the fact that the suspect was killed and exhibiting (at the very least) annoyance that the deputy who carried out his order was himself not as proud and excited about having actually pulled the trigger.
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Old 11th February 2018, 01:36 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Indeed, and the good sheriff doesn't seem to feel the same way. It seems we have a case where the sheriff gave a "by any means necessary" order over the radio remotely, only arriving at the aftermath later in a jolly mood over the fact that the suspect was killed and exhibiting (at the very least) annoyance that the deputy who carried out his order was himself not as proud and excited about having actually pulled the trigger.
The second line in my signature applies equally to LE and the military.
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Old 11th February 2018, 04:17 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
If the mods view this post as off-topic I apologize in advance.

There is a significant difference between the legally and morally justified taking of life in a military context and a law enforcement context.

Simply, in the military you do your thing, run around and you do your pondering sometime down the line.

In the LE context, you may not face any similar level of threat but are forced to respond to the threat with no lesser consequence and you immediately return home with the expectation that the incident is over and done with and nothing has changed. The popular fiction version of the aftermath of violence, even with the body of research into PTSD and associated issues leads folks to believe that "hey, he was a bad guy, what's the problem?"

There's a huge *********** problem.

Even in very clear cut situations, LE use of force incidents are very close up and personal. The officer sees the threat and the aftermath. The officer through the media is often aware of the grieving family members. The officer, again, even in very clear-cut situations knows how his actions in justifiable self defense negatively effected people wholly uninvolved with the criminal actions of the decedent.

As a soldier, you never know any of that.

I don't know one single officer that I've counseled after using lethal force that shrugged it off and motored on, but I know a bunch of guys who ended up divorced, or who ended up self medicating one way or another to try to cope with the after effects of taking a life - again, even in incidents that were wholly justifiable.
Interesting point, the soldier kills at more of a distance, has little to no contact with the person killed, does not have to write up a report or face a potential trial (even as a witness, not necessarily as an accused) and see the family.

I have heard, but have no evidence, a lot of US police officers are ex soldiers. Could that be why many act as if they are soldiers?
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Old 11th February 2018, 04:52 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Interesting point, the soldier kills at more of a distance, has little to no contact with the person killed, does not have to write up a report or face a potential trial (even as a witness, not necessarily as an accused) and see the family.

I have heard, but have no evidence, a lot of US police officers are ex soldiers. Could that be why many act as if they are soldiers?
There are former active duty military members from all branches in LE in the States, and not all of them are Infantry/Airborne/Marine types.

As far as "acting" like they are soldiers otj, outside of various tactical teams there is very little in LE that is compatible with Infantry/Airborne/Marine SOP.
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Old 11th February 2018, 05:41 PM   #107
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There also seem to be a lot of military wannabees in law enforcement. Like David Clarke and all his medals.
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Old 11th February 2018, 06:13 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
There also seem to be a lot of military wannabees in law enforcement. Like David Clarke and all his medals.
First time I saw him in his dress uniform I thought WTF?

I've come to understand that he just likes to accessorize...but on the uniform?really?
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Old 11th February 2018, 08:19 PM   #109
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I dont have a good link for this but here's the statement from the White County, DA.

It does add some more context to the facts we've heard so far.

Quote:
District Attorney General Bryant Dunaway released a statement regarding the incident:

“Regarding the April 2017 officer-involved shooting incident in White County, Tennessee which resulted in the tragic death of Michael Dial, I would like to make absolutely clear that the District Attorney’s office does not condone or support the behavior and comments of the White County sheriff. The public’s outrage over the sheriff’s behavior and the community’s sympathies for Mr. Dial’s family are shared by this office. The decision not to bring charges against the responding officers was based on an evaluation of the individual actions of Mr. Dial and the individual actions of those officers under the circumstances in which those officers found themselves. The sheriff was not present during the pursuit; he did not make the offensive comments until well after the conclusion of the pursuit. Over the course of a lengthy pursuit through two counties, Mr. Dial repeatedly, willingly and directly endangered the lives of civilian drivers and law enforcement officers. A complete review of the multiple pursuit videos show Mr. Dial’s truck and trailer driving at times on the wrong side of the roadway directly into oncoming traffic and forcing citizen drivers off the road, proceeding from highways to city streets past schools and businesses, and colliding with police vehicles, all the while indicating no intent to stop. In the nearly 10 months that have elapsed since this incident, this office has proactively shared information with the public, beginning with our office petitioning the Chancery Court to authorize the release of the TBI investigative files to be made available to the public, and the distribution of a detailed news release in May 2017.”
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Old 11th February 2018, 09:28 PM   #110
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Why wouldn't they flatten the tires? I don't get that part.
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Old 11th February 2018, 09:56 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
I dont have a good link for this but here's the statement from the White County, DA.

It does add some more context to the facts we've heard so far.
I don't think it does:

Quote:
Over the course of a lengthy pursuit through two counties, Mr. Dial repeatedly, willingly and directly endangered the lives of civilian drivers and law enforcement officers. A complete review of the multiple pursuit videos show Mr. Dial’s truck and trailer driving at times on the wrong side of the roadway directly into oncoming traffic and forcing citizen drivers off the road, proceeding from highways to city streets past schools and businesses, and colliding with police vehicles, all the while indicating no intent to stop.
All this is, is a description of a fairly standard police chase - the kind that seems to end more than 99% of the time without police needing to kill the driver while the vehicle is moving. But we already knew it was a police chase; the context that we have been missing so far, and which is in fact still missing from the DA's statement, is what made this police chase so much more dangerous than any other chase, that this use of deadly force was ordered. The guy may have been weaving all over the road and past schools and every other thing described earlier in the pursuit; but it's fairly plain to see that when they shot at him, he was on a remote highway far away from anyone and anything to which he posed any threat.
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Old 11th February 2018, 10:26 PM   #112
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In addition to which they knew who he was and where to look for him later. The chase wasn't necessary.
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Old 11th February 2018, 10:31 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
<snip>

All this is, is a description of a fairly standard police chase - the kind that seems to end more than 99% of the time without police needing to kill the driver while the vehicle is moving. But we already knew it was a police chase; the context that we have been missing so far, and which is in fact still missing from the DA's statement, is what made this police chase so much more dangerous than any other chase, that this use of deadly force was ordered. The guy may have been weaving all over the road and past schools and every other thing described earlier in the pursuit; but it's fairly plain to see that when they shot at him, he was on a remote highway far away from anyone and anything to which he posed any threat.

It's because they can.

Cops can kill with relative impunity. They can even brag about it, and brag about wanting to do it.

There is no cost to them, no fear of retribution. Maybe they'll drive a desk for a little while. At worst they might have to pull up stakes and head to the next cop shop down the road.

If their union rep's any good they'll get severance pay and a parting bonus in the unlikely event they have to leave. And maybe a windfall from an "unfair termination" lawsuit.
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Old 12th February 2018, 04:06 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Please remove your tongue from my mouth.

I realize that certain parties at ISF see any response about police misconduct that doesn't involve lynching as evidence of whole-hearted endorsement of the outrage du jour, so lets just leave this with my observation that clearly you support serial killers that have the mildly eccentric hobby of raping and murdering women and filming it for their later amusement.
Then why post random crap that had nothing to do with this? You don't even have the guts to comment on this shooting directly.
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Old 12th February 2018, 04:12 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
One of the worst myths that popular fiction has conditioned people to believe is that if the "bad guy" gets killed there aren't any consequences emotionally or psychologically for the individual doing the life taking.

It is the worst of lies.

If Mr. "I love this ****" in this case really does, there's only a couple of places he should be and one is dead and one is living in a prison uniform.
And yet enjoying the violence and death is not exactly uncommon or a reason to fire an officer. See how much K9 officers like to sick their dogs on people as that if funny as hell, also slowly watching someone die of dehydration is the best comedy in the Milwaukee Sheriffs department. These things are not reasons for police to lose their jobs though. Just like shooting unarmed people running away in multiple incidents isn't either.

But surely you will change the subject by talking about people with warrants for serious crimes being arrested for shoplifting that will make all this death OK.
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Old 12th February 2018, 04:15 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
From the afore-quoted article:
"You don't have to worry about this. I made the decision. You don't have to worry about it. I took that away from y'all. You don't have to worry about nothing. Everything's cool. You done exactly right," the sheriff said.
I guess the sheriff doesn't have a problem with lying to his underlings either, which is a mild surprise.

Every one, cop included, is responsible for objecting to or ignoring an unlawful order. Anyone recall Nuremburg for example? That cop is as guilty for premeditated murder as the sheriff as well as everyone who was involved who could have objected or attempted to block such unlawful order.
You say Nuremburg, well I raise you a CIA torture program. In the US following orders is generally good to get both the guy doing it and the guy giving the order off scott free.

Nothing will happen because of this, the Sheriff will continue to be a well respected member of law enforcement and people will move on to the next murder by police that people will find acceptable soon enough.
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Old 12th February 2018, 09:56 AM   #117
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The blase disrespect for life and militaristic attitude is symptomatic of a police force which shoots far more often than it really needs to.
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Old 12th February 2018, 10:18 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Then why post random crap that had nothing to do with this? You don't even have the guts to comment on this shooting directly.
I don't know enough about the actual facts to make a good decision based on something other than my feelings and news reports.

It's clear that you support lynching of accused persons w/o due process of law, but I'd prefer to have an investigation and adjudication before I get the rope out.
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Old 12th February 2018, 10:24 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
In addition to which they knew who he was and where to look for him later. The chase wasn't necessary.
Tbf, the cops would look awfully stupid if the guy hurt someone or committed another crime after they gave up on the chase.
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Old 12th February 2018, 10:29 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And yet enjoying the violence and death is not exactly uncommon or a reason to fire an officer. See how much K9 officers like to sick their dogs on people as that if funny as hell, also slowly watching someone die of dehydration is the best comedy in the Milwaukee Sheriffs department. These things are not reasons for police to lose their jobs though. Just like shooting unarmed people running away in multiple incidents isn't either.

But surely you will change the subject by talking about people with warrants for serious crimes being arrested for shoplifting that will make all this death OK.
I cited a particular case involving shoplifting that exposed a horrific crime.

In your mind that was an attempt to excuse the actions of the police in this incident.

It was not intended to do any such thing.

I referenced the case as an example of why officers involved with what appear to be low-priority crimes really don't know that the petty crime they were called to investigate is the totality of the situation they're involved with.

It's clear to me that the last thing you want in any discussion involving LE is anything that doesn't directly support your pov, but my pov is that education is better than rhetoric on just about any subject.

If you'd like to review my posts in this thread and cite any post where I stated that I believed this was a good or just outcome in this particular incident please make that cite.
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